Comments on: Lost & Found: Carnivale – Season 2, Episodes 10 & 11

By: Wilusa

Wilusa — Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:07:22 +0000

I’d forgotten it would be necessary for M Morse to join the group before he could access those posts! I’m sure there’s more of interest, besides the actual pitch document–info on earlier stages of Knauf’s plan, on the first (unaired) pilot, and on how draft scripts differed from the final versions.

What I wanted to comment on today was the reasons Carnivale was cancelled. My only real complaint about the show itself is its visual darkness–the actual lighting (or lack thereof), not its “dark” content. But I don’t think any flaws in the show led to its cancellation. From the start, HBO gave it inadequate promotion. What promotion there was didn’t make clear enough what sort of show it was, and didn’t appear in places that would reach viewers who’d welcome a show of that type. Then the Season 1 DVDs were exorbitantly priced, resulting in low initial sales. It’s been suggested HBO really gave up on the show at that point. There was an excessively long hiatus between Seasons 1 and 2. And then the Season 2 opener was slotted against extremely tough network competition, which undoubtedly hurt the ratings.

About the other HBO shows mentioned here…I lost interest in True Blood after one season, and quit watching it. I enjoyed Season 1 of Game of Thrones, and will tune in again, but I doubt I’ll ever care enough to buy it on Blu-ray or discuss it with anyone.

Other prematurely cancelled shows to be reviewed/discussed here? I’d suggest FlashForward. I love that (rare) type of show: science fiction that relies on ideas, not “aliens” who are, or can easily make themselves look, unbelievably humanoid. Two other prematurely cancelled shows that were thought-provoking, in their different ways: The Book of Daniel and John From Cincinnati.

By: M Morse

M Morse — Tue, 21 Jun 2011 14:57:19 +0000

Thanks for the tip! Just watched the final episode last night. Once I've written it up I'll go poking around Yahoo for the "mythology" column in two weeks.

By: TonyB79

TonyB79 — Tue, 21 Jun 2011 02:48:41 +0000

The pitch document you may be able to find on the Carnivale yahoo group. Most of the other info has been doled out over the last few years in the course of Daniel Knauf’s posts on that site, however. I might still have some stuff lying around that I’ve copied and pasted, but my best advice would be to join the Yahoo group (after you finish the show, of course!), search for posts by ‘fboffo’ (DK’s username), and start reading, with a preference toward the older stuff. He has a lot of really interesting things to say.

By: M Morse

M Morse — Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:44:58 +0000

Hey, all! Thanks for the comments. Much appreciated. Thanks, also, for the clarification on the whole “boon” thing. That makes sense. @TonyB: That makes sense re: the weapondry. Its not my intent to compare the entirety of Carnivale to either Lost or Twin Peaks – just to compare some of the elements that they share, as well as my personal reaction to how those elements are handled. I’ve genuinely enjoyed the way that Knauf has more-or-less naturalistically let the “mythology” dribble out. It feels like he was consciously trying to make a show where the characters have to work at the meaning behind things, as opposed to having answers dropped into their laps. I really respect that approach. @Wilusa That’s interesting stuff to know! Given that the show explicitly cites the Sauniere manuscript, and given that the manuscript is heavily connected in legend with Christ, it was only natural to speculate on why that bit of myth was included, and what it might have meant to the show going forward. As stated in the article, I’m very much looking forward to reading Knauf’s pitch doc, and seeing whether it offers any further info on what might have been coming down the pike had the show survived longer. I’ve reached out to Knauf and requested an email interview about the show. If he agrees to participate I’ll let you folks know and give you the opportunity to suggest questions.

By: Wilusa

Wilusa — Sat, 18 Jun 2011 16:48:57 +0000

I agree with what others have said about boons. And I never watched either Twin Peaks or Lost, so I can’t make comparisons there. But as a Highlander fan, I thought it was unfortunate that they had Clancy Brown (formerly the Kurgan) behead Scudder and–I think–hold the head aloft, glorying in his triumph. A sequence way too reminiscent of Highlander, at a moment when viewers wouldn’t want to suddenly be reminded of something else.

As I understood it, we’ve been told the Templars and the Sauniere Manuscript might have played a part in the ongoing story, but not a major part. Daniel Knauf has told us he thought of the Buddha, Jesus, and Mohammed as having been Light Avatars, Caligula and Vlad the Impaler Dark. (He’d wanted to fit Rasputin into his timeline, but couldn’t.) But I can’t see “Jesus’s bloodline” as being important here, in itself. If Jesus was an Avatar, he was no more and no less important a spiritual figure than Lucius Belyakov or Ben Hawkins.

I don’t see the “Grail” as being important. But what I have speculated about is the so-called “Spear of Longinus.” What if Ben were to need another anointed blade? Jesus was an Avatar…some might argue that the spear actually killed him…even if it didn’t, his death-blood was on it…and there are four blades out there, in various places, whose champions claim they’re the original. Plus, I remember Knauf’s telling fans he’d read “The Spear of Destiny.” I also read that book, but so long ago I only recall that it was really, really wild! Implying, among other things, that Hitler believed the legend about that Spear’s giving its bearer the power to rule the world…

By: TonyB79

TonyB79 — Sat, 18 Jun 2011 08:10:53 +0000

A word about anointed weapons… Smith only says that such a weapon can destroy Justin, not that it’s the only thing that can harm him. We see him cut his face with the razor, after all, and the scene with Sofie in his room (where she seems to be contemplating showing him the business end of said razor) seems to imply that she’d at least be capable of hurting him with it. I don’t think the axe burning Justin’s hand is any more confusing or “deliberately obfuscated” than, say, the little fainting spells he seems to experience every time Ben draws his knife, or the violent reactions each time Ben heals someone, etc.

As for how Carnivale stacks up against shows like Lost and Twin Peaks… it’s a matter of opinion, I guess, but for me there’s a difference between being stingy with what you reveal in terms of your show’s underlying mythology (as is the case with Carnivale), and either not having any coherent mythology (Twin Peaks, where the surrealism and ultimate incomprehensible nature of the whole thing was basically the point), or having a poorly thought out mythology that leaves plot holes gaping widely at the end (Lost).

Based on what Knauf has revealed (both before and after the cancellation), I believe he had the show’s storyline, as well as the nuts and bolts regarding the avatars, worked out in a fair amount of detail, and simply chose to either play that information out slowly over the course of the entire series (which was intended to run for six seasons, remember), or to “show” rather than “tell,” thus leaving some things ambiguous and open to interpretation.

Is the show perfect? Certainly not. But I favor Knauf’s approach a lot more than Lynch’s (where the whole thing is essentially the cinematic equivalent of a fever dream… the answers were never there to begin with, and that’s basically the point), or Lost’s (let’s throw a bunch of “mysterious” shit at the wall and then whine at the end when people expect us to actually explain some of it).

By: BZoDThGoD

BZoDThGoD — Sat, 18 Jun 2011 04:51:49 +0000

It’s still a disappointment that this show was not allowed to finish, and infuriating the HBO wouldn’t allow Knauf to continue the series in comics form.

By: CyberGhostface

CyberGhostface — Fri, 17 Jun 2011 23:43:55 +0000

If you recall, in the conversation between Justin and Talbot, Justin goes “Scudder will never give me what I want.” to which Talbot responds, “If you took him by surprise, he would have no choice.” Management willingly gave himself to Ben so it’s a different situation than the one between Scudder and Justin.

As for Justin being more evil this season…unfortunately, this lies at the hands of HBO and not the original writers. Knauf had planned for Justin to be more conflicted but HBO vetoed it. They were, in the words of Clancy Brown, uncomfortable with ambiguity.

As for what show to do next, I would recommend Rome, also by HBO.

By: Rndonohue

Rndonohue — Fri, 17 Jun 2011 22:32:06 +0000

From what I remember about Avatars and the passing along of the Boon, I think it was stated that they either need to be caught by surprise (as in Scudder’s case) or pass along their Boon willingly (as in Managements, who wanted to die by Ben’s hand and orchestrated events to that end).