THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM post release - Page 8

Today I walked through Waterloo station with the Bourne Supremacy soundtrack blasting through my ears. Was kind of cool, heh.

Bourne and Indy rock no doubt, but i think Murtaugh and Riggs might have something to say about that.

Really? To me, the first Lethal Weapon is the only really outstanding film in the series. The others are entertaining, but they never touched the level of the first one again.

LW2 is just a Busey shy from being as good as the original. But the series doesn't apply because it's not a trilogy.

A pretty good action trilogy on the whole, though for having such an introspective narrative it really lacked in development. The whole Treadstone concept would fill one sole movie, done with a different pace.

Haha, did the same. Only I went to Victoria instead, which was closer by.

Thats exactly how i feel about the bourne series. The first one was a mind blower, supremecy and ultimatum were very good. I do see your point, and i think most times the sequels to a film aren't as good because of the feeling of "i've been here before".

Another example is The Matrix. First film a complete mind blower. Second film actually exceeded the first in many ways (the freeway scene, holy fuck!) but because it wasn't fresh, it wasn't as good. I believe had reloaded come first, the overall opinions of that movie would be better.

And one where there is about a 50-50 split over which is better, the original or the sequel is Terminator. I think the first far and away the better film. Again, the mind blower thing. Ahhhhhnuld was relentless. But i understand why many people like Judgement Day for the technical aspect and groundbreaking special effects. We could talk about Alien vs. Aliens the same way as well(imo alien is the superior film).

Other than Empire Strikes Back, i can't remember off hand where i thought a sequel was better than the original.

And LW counts, LW4 is forever wiped from this earth. The series stopped at 3!

OMG moltisanti, i just clicked that link in your profile, i'm going to blockbuster and see if they carry Invasion USA. I haven't seen that movie in 20 years, holy shit that was awsome. I'll bet they don't carry it in the store, I'll probably have to get it online. Invasion USA, frickin hillarious and totaly awsome all at the same time. I want to watch that movie NOW!

"When the boogeyman goes to sleep at night, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris."

"To the Roof" is the track that got me into the Bourne scores in the first place. A great part of the movie and a great track to just walk to. If I listen to it, I can't help quicken the pace of my steps to match the beat. It's made my short walks from a parking spot to campus much more exciting over the past few years (that sounds so sad...).

Actually, The Bourne Supremacy soundtrack makes me a danger on the road as it gets me more aggressive to match the mood of the music.

I've mentioned this several times on this thread, but I was never particularly impressed by The Bourne Identity. I have no idea why. I enjoyed the movie well enough, but it left my mind the moment I was done.

The Bourne Supremacy was the one that got my attention. Granted, I did see that one in the theater while I only saw Identity on DVD. Would that make THAT much of a difference?

Well, I think you're completely wrong on that one. The Matrix Reloaded is a bad film, with or without the first one. It had nothing to do with the concept not being new. If anything, it failed because it didn't deliver enough of what people loved about the first one, and started lecturing them on philosophy instead. It was a case of the filmmakers not understanding what worked about their own film, a feat Richard Kelly duplicated with his director's cut of Donnie Darko.

My viewing experiences were reversed, but with the same result. Saw Identity in theaters, enjoyed it, didn't think that much of it. Then Supremacy on DVD got me jumping for more.

I didn't find reloaded to preachy or think it had too much lecturing. I thought they spent too much time in Zion(could've cut it to a third), the rave seemed forced. But once they got the party started; the freeway chase, merovingian and persiphony, the movie rocked.

Have never been able to sit through the whole Donnie Darko. Have tried a few times, can't do it. So can't comment on that.

I missed out on ragging on the Matrix sequels around here, so I'll do it now. In pure storytelling terms, the Matrix sequels were terrible, terrible movies. I'll say right now that I actually do like both sequels, but it's not because they're good. I only like them because they featured some stuff I like (a cool car chase, some cool fighting, cool CG robots, a Dragonball fight, and I like the Architect scene).

Aside from that, you basically got a live-action version of the worst aspects of sci-fi anime. Characters just yapping on and on about their philosophy as if they were in an Ayn Rand novel. The Wachowskis were able to take the time with this stuff in the first movie. They trimmed the heady stuff down to its essentials and made sure to help the movie expand on its themes while moving the story along.

When the Oracle talks about destiny and choice in the first movie, it is working as an answer to a question that the audience has been harboring as the story developed; is Neo The One? It was also written in a way that felt somewhat natural as dialogue (it helps that Gloria Foster had a very warm presence as The Oracle).

In the sequels (especially Reloaded), you get speeches full of 'important answers' that you never ask for or want. It's like every character got self-righteous all of a sudden and wanted their turn on the soapbox and poor Neo had to stand there and listen to it all. The Zion Elder, Morpheus, Seraph, The Oracle, Agent Smith, The Merovingian, Persephone, The Keymaker, some more Morpheus, The Architect, and even Neo himself. Every time one of them started speechifying, the movie came to a dead halt which resulted in a movie with dreadful pacing.

This tendency even infected the 'casual dialogue' in the rest of the movie. This time, the actors could not hide that they were speaking in cliches. Lawrence Fishburne was especially cursed with the worth examples of this. Locke had little to say except, "Goddamn it." I wanted to rush the Zion elders with a machete for their pompous fortune cookie proverbs (ESPECIALLY Cornell West's cameo). I had no love for Locke's character, but I wish he had lost control and butchered the elders. The only actors who were able to rise above such writing were Gloria Foster, Hugo Weaving, Helmut Bakaitis, and to a lesser extent, Lambert Wilson.

In the philosopher's commentary in the Ultimate Matrix DVD set, Cornell West expresses his wish that people could open their minds to see the genius at work in the sequels (both he and Ken Wilbur favored the later two movies). I call bullshit on that sentiment. Unless one was already predisposed to find blatant lecturing about philosophy interesting, I find it hard to figure out why anyone would want to open their minds to such lazy screenwriting.

I'm not saying it can't be done and I'm not asking to be spoonfed. But why should I expend any brainpower into listening to heady speeches if the Wachowskis couldn't be bothered to write an engaging story that incorporated the philosophy seamlessly? It's certainly not an enviable task... but that is one of the reasons they get paid the big money (at least it should be).

Sorry to do all that on a Bourne Ultimatum thread...

About Donnie Darko: another movie I saw on DVD and wasn't particularly taken in by. I saw it that one time before it gained a noticeable cult following. I think I got enough of what the movie was saying. I think I enjoyed it. That was it. Nothing about the movie has lingered in my mind, so I never had any inclination to see the director's cut.

To anyone: Should I give Donnie Darko another chance?

As long as it's not the director's cut, yes.

End of discussion? Yes, yes, I think so.

What discussion does this end?

I've watched Supremacy four times and I've NEVER been able to notice her, even though I've read everywhere she shows up. Where the fuck is she?

Whether or not Casino Royale aped Bourne. Some people still say Bourne had nothing to do with Casino Royale and that they had nothing in common.

If you've been having a discussion in this thread, I wasn't paying attention. Don't mind me.

Also, I went ahead and put this news here because I've sent far bigger news items to the CHUD guys and most were NEVER put up (some were), and I figured this one would also be "rejected", so to say.

Now I feel like an ass.

The debate on whether or not the latest Bond action was inspired in any way by the Bourne series. That'd be my guess.

EDIT: BTSMGL beat me to it.

People keep bringing up this business of Bond imitating Bourne as if it's a raging debate. Who was arguing about it? I don't remember anyone issuing any denials. It's a one-sided debate, so I fail to see how this ends the discussion, since the discussion never existed.

Oh, that makes sense. I guess I never thought there was much debate over whether the success of Bourne had any impact over Casino Royale. My assumption was, "Of course it does!"



I can't give you an exact timecode on the DVD, but I would just say be on the lookout for her whenever there's a CIA control room scene with Pamela Landy and/or Brian Cox. She's one of those working under them.

Go back a page or two to the guy from the Hong Kong forum and you'll see that he was adamant that Bourne had no bearing on Bond and that he saw no similarities at all between the two. The debate existed, just between a few folks.

Exactly. She's Technician Kim working under Pam Landy. She's featured predominantly (as in it's her or his male partner doing the tech talking) during the failed sting operation in Berlin -around minute 5- and the awesome "To the roof"-scored sequence in which Bourne tracks down Landy to the CIA HQ and asks for Nicky from behind his sniper rifle.

Same story, I finally see a movie after putting it off, tell myself that the upside is there'll be plenty of conversation ready to take in, read thread, completely lose urge to participate.

But I'll just stay away from the camera subject and say that there are two questions that won't leave me alone. First is the assassin that kills the reporter, is he the same guy that is in the chase/spares bourne in the end? When he escaped by train I thought it was such a neat idea to have Bourne NOT catch a guy that I thought he'd be left behind and pushed his face out of my mind for others things (small RAM). Did they not want to introduce a third operative in NY?

And then Julia Stiles; are there really no more clues as to why she sated beyond her "especially for me" or whatever line? It got to the point where I remembered that she was working for a whistleblower and decided to fill in the hole myself by imagining that in the face of immoral superiors she too would rather drop her life, any remaining friends and family and live out the rest of her days on the run in foreign lands rather than just bothering to use Microsoft Word's "I quit" template for 5 minutes.

Even with all the different locations these things made the movie's world seem kind of small sometimes. Something that's a dangerous move in franchises. I thought I'd see a c3po prop in the background of Morocco at some point...

1) Yeah, it's the same guy. Choco from Domino!

2) She kinda subtly insinuates that she and Bourne had a thing pre-Bourne Identity shenanigans.

Double post, my bad.

*kicks DSL*

I watched The Bourne Identity tonight and at the end, Brian Cox states treadstone was shutdown and in it's place was the program 'Blackbriar' which was a major plot point in Ultimatum. I realize Blackbriar is just treadstone under another name but was this the program Bourne signed up for?

I don't think so. Wasn't he the first Treadstone "asset"?

I would need to see "Ultimatum" again to confirm this, but since "Blackbriar" is just a newer incarnation of "Treadstone" (probably just renamed for bureacratic/political reasons), I think it's still consistent to say that Bourne volunteered for the program under it's previous operational code name "Treadstone", and when it gets leaked to the press by the Station Chief, he refers to it by its current name "Blackbriar".

I had actually not oticed or remembered that line by Cox in "Identity". Adds a devious little underpinning to that whole congressional scene. He was hiding the same, maybe even deadlier program right in front of them.

Yeah, recently watched Identity again and when Cox mentioned "Blackbriar" I almost jumped out of my seat out of excitement. Devious, indeed.

Treadstone is Blackbriar, but Blackbriar is more than just Treadstone. It's stated a couple of times in Ultimatum that Blackbriar is an "umbrella" for several types of operations which Treadstone just merged into. The assassinating type, I assume.

That is correct. In fact, Brian Cox's character Ward Abbott is supposed to be the supervisor with underling Conklin/ Chris Cooper as head of ops. This is why he's surprised in that introductory meeting with his fellow section chiefs in Identity that Nykwana Wombosi's failed assassination attempt results in him about to name names. First thing he does afterwards is go see Conklin to check on what the fuck happened since he wasn't obviously informed. Furthermore, it is he who decides to shut Treadstone down (and waste Cooper) since he probably suspects that the shit hitting the fan and the Bourne case going public would surely draw the CIA's attention to his "fundraising" tactics with Gretkov as explained in Supremacy.

Funny thing is since Bourne's first mission is killing Neski alongside Abbott and Conklin, the latter probably knew nothing about his supervisor dirty business despite the fact that someone mentions in TBS that "money was found in a swiss bank account of his" (opened by Abbott in order to divert attention?). The events in Ultimatum and subsequent implication of CIA Director Kramer and Deputy/ head of CRI Vosen result in probably the Agency rolling with the Treadstone ball and using it to also murder american citizens for the sake of national security, which is why they eventually go on trial.

I submitted this as a scoop, but it seems it's not newsworthy for the main page. Makes sense, since it's about a movie that's already several years old

 

So, anyway, did you guys hear about this whole Damon / Gilroy dust up? Damon gave an interview with GQ where he used some extraordinarily harsh language to go after Tony Gilroy and his work on BOURNE ULTIMATUM. It's clear he respects the guy.. but he also savages him in these quotes to a degree that I rarely see from professional actors:

 

 

He then called back, after having given these quotes, after having reconsidered his statements or been told he was out of line by his people

 

He added these remarks:

 

 

 

 

I am sure he's telling the truth and Gilroy screwed up, but it's just surprising to see Damon talk about ending someone else's career like that, even if it's a hypothetical he was discussing

 

Thoughts?

 

Based on my hazy memory of reading about the difficult productions of Supremacy and Ultimatum, I think I recall Gilroy never appreciating what Greengrass did to his script for The Bourne Supremacy.  Whatever Gilroy wrote would be tossed aside in favor of Greengrass's haphazard approach anyway.  So why bother putting forth the effort to making anything good?

 

I'm not condoning his actions, but if what I've read is true, I can certainly understand it. 

Edited by mcnooj82 - 12/20/11 at 11:39am

Lovely necro-bump Kate.

 

Also, Hollywood:

 

 

 

 

I know it's a business and 'art' falls on the wayside a lot, but really come on Universal.  Might as well get office juniors to write your scripts, save money.  I don't care if I've got Charlie Kaufman writing for me, one draft scripts are unacceptable.

It's an interesting situation. Sounds like there's more to it than Gilroy just grabbing the money. If he didn't give a shit he wouldn't have been so bothered by whatever happened to his Supremacy script, and also probably wouldn't have jumped at the chance to take control of the franchise like he's doing. Sounds like he phoned it in as a kind of protest at Greengrass and his methods.

 

Didn't harm the movie any, either way. The Bourne series is one of those things that seems to have turned out really good almost in spite of itself.