America is sinking to new lows everyday

This article really shows the environment there and here. This is the war Bush and Cheney wanted to fight - with Rumsfeld's dream of contractor heaven and Cheney socking away the spoils of his Halliburton profits. The fact that this doesn't get reported until a lawsuit is filed also speaks to the lethargic, non-responsive corporate media and their mandate to cover-up the truth at the pleasure of their partners in DC.

I keep waiting for America at large to understand who the real war is being fought against. This is a war for money and power, and those two things won't be given back. They're going to have to be forcibly taken back by the people. There is no other way. As long as Wall Street and Houston continue to ride the gravy train, the corporate media will be willing henchmen.

More and more I'm thinking that I will have to give up the dream of President Gore and even Kucinich. John Edwards has spent his life fighting corporate power and he may be the only one with the strengths and strategies to fight this oligarchy we've found ourselves in.

Anybody who hasn't found America's direction in the last few years absolutely terrifying is a complete moron. Nobody wants to hear that America could turn fascist, but it's already been happening. People seem to have this belief that the system is designed to prevent such things, and that the people would never allow it to happen here. It's all bullshit.

Most people I know who say America could never turn fascist usually will immediately thereafeter threaten to beat the shit out of someone who burns the flag or doesn't say the Pledge of Allegiance.

Cuz that's what good American do, ya commie faggot.

I was just going to post a similar article (http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/...p4052736.html). I don't recognize what your country is anymore. When I was a kid, my friends and I all thought that Americans were awesome. Sure maybe a little bit loud and boisterous, but you could always count on your American relatives and friends to not take shit from anyone, stand up beside you no matter what if they called you a friend, and be ready to laugh with you, at you and at themselves at the drop of a hat. It was the "not take shit from anyone" attitude we all loved, as here in Canada no one was like that. We just sort of passively went along with things, only occasionally coming out of our shells to protest a particularly grevious injustice. The instant something was happening that my Uncle Ed (yes I have an American uncle named Ed) for example, didn't like, he was the first to stand up and do something about it. Sometimes it was embarrassing, sometimes it was inspirational, but that was America to me. Fight for everything, don't let anyone tread on you, be ready with a friendly hand-up when all was said and done.

Between the way you are letting your government cow you into doing whatever they want, and the seemly silent opposition most give to the religious right and their hate, the America I knew seems to be dying. I know there are still good people there, people I miss and love, but I can't figure out why no one does anything about this. Where are all of the loud assholes who can't take this bullshit anymore and are ready to fight? How many more reasons do you need before you'll speak out and stop letting these would-be Kings speak for you?

It's fun for the right to say that W got the most votes EVER in a Presidential election, it's a sign of his wild popularity. That's missing the point that he had to have that many votes, because never before has a candidate had that many votes cast AGAINST him. Following the '04 victory, the right lost the '06 elections in glorious fashion. There are as many people down here who think the current administration is utterly full of shit.

But with the current zero-sum political game, it's tough for legitimate criticisms to rise through the biased and raucous wall of rhetoric. As I recall Devin pointing out about Farhenheit 9/11, the biggest problem for it was that it was using specious criticism and stretching the truth to slander Bush, when the obvious and un-fabricated facts would have been more than enough.

Currently, quite a few Republicans are starting to retreat from their jingoistic, flag-wrapped, hellfire-and-brimstone platform and start catering to the center. The religious right seems to be realizing that they have been played the same way the Dems play(ed) the blacks - a little lip-service guarantees their votes over the other party, no action needed - and are threatening to splinter off.

The problem is the Dems are equally worthless but in a different way.

The dems fear vilification by the corporate media if they take a stand against the Bush junta and the fickle public's inevitable Pavlov dogian response. It's a legitimate fear but until someone other than Ron Paul or Kucinich stands up and tells the truth about reality, and until the corporate media gets broken up and wrestled into some form of independence, nothing will change.

John Edwards's resolve and experience coupled with Obama's eloquence and charisma might be the right combination to deliver the hard truths that people need to hear. I'm not talking about the polite ineffectual liberal base -- it's the conservative base that needs to be made to understand how they've been had.

Meanwhile, back to contractor fraud and taxpayer bilking, Rolling Stone has an article about war profiteers here: The Great Iraq Swindle

Absolutely sickening, the only thing keeping me from sinking into deep depression after reading that, is the hope that someone will, ultimately be held accountable.

But, they won't, will they?

"As long as Wall Street and Houston continue to ride the gravy train, the corporate media will be willing henchmen."

Houston's a big place. Bigger than some states. I live here, and I'm certainly not on the gravy train. Just like Wall Street isn't NYC, River Oaks (where the folks you're talking about are) isn't Houston.

There are a hell of alot of non-republicans down here, and I think Houston was Kinky Friedman's power base. Just like the rest of the US, BushCo's supporters are spread out all over the place, like a cancer.

That's an oxymoron. No fag I know of would ever dress in those clothes. Unless they're into the bondage deal.

Coyote, apologies for painting with a broad brush. I'm not talking about the people at large but the industries headquartered in those places.

Meanwhile, the contractor/"lost" funds/Iraq war front is a snake eating its own tail:

From here.

If they did, it would be the most critical turning point for this country since the Declaration of Independence. My greatest hope is that America wakes up from this nightmare and puts every single one of these looters and conmen, from the President on down, on trial.

The only way I can really see America start regaining it's standing on the world stage, and even more so at home, would be if the next administration took a look at everything that was done by the current administration and opened up all the dark stuff to the world. What I mean is all the illegal wiretapping, tortures, black detention sites, etc. The next administration would have to take all those things (if there are even still records of them existing by the time they come into power) and push forward with criminal prosecution on all of it. They would need to have an attitude of "Who cares that Bush and his pals are no longer in power. This is about following the law and doing the right thing." That would be a start on moving us back to a leadership position in the world. Sadly, I don't see this ever happening.

Especially if Clinton and/or Obama get elected. I see both of them pulling some bullshit of "America has chosen a new direction and we should just let bygones be bygones. It's time for a new way forward. " Obama has Lieberman as a mentor and Clinton is for all purposes a DC insider. Both still follow under the same stupid belief that the politics game is still the same as it ever was and all we need to do is find some common ground and bipartisanship. It's really a sad state of affairs.

( yt, no offense was taken, just letting you know )

I agree completely.
I was , I'm embarrassed to say, one of those suckers who bought the US governments lies presented to the UN on Iraqs WMD.
At the time I couldn't believe they'd just conjure up the evidence they needed, at least I didn't think Powell would stoop so low.
It would take something earth-shattering to make me trust another administration again, and I'm afraid I'm in the majority on that, worldwide.

It's a sad state of affairs, your whole political system appears to be utterly broken.

No need to be embarrassed. The thing is, what these people have done falls so far outside the realm of human decency that to most decent people, it's science fiction.

And that's really all that neeeds to be said about any of this.

Democrats, Republicans, it's all the same shit, just different rhetoric. And it isn't going to change any time soon.

It's awful to say, but the grand political experiment that was America...well, I dare say it may be judged as a failure, at least by aliens and time travelers.

Thomas Jefferson was right when he said that the sort of government we have would require a wholesale reformation every so often in order to continue to function. It's just a shame nobody listened.

A lot of very understandable doom & gloom in this thread, but this here fightin' liberal ain't givin' up on America just yet.

9/11 fucked this country UP (I know, duh). It'd been a loooong time since this nation was so nakedly exposed as being blinkered and vulnerable, and it left us all pretty woozy. All our military might, all our obscene military and intelligence spending, and we're done in by men with box cutters willing and happy to die for their cause. I think all of us went a little nuts in the ensuing weeks and months, and these power-mad, ethically-barren bastards had to be thrilled with their good luck. I guarantee that men like Karl Rove watched the footage of the events unfolding that day, and whispered to themselves that this was just the opportunity they'd been waiting for.

Six years and countless incompetencies later, though, America is (I think) starting to wake up. The resignations are coming fast and furious, Cheney is widely regarded as the smug, evil bastard he so often appears to be, and Bush isn't much more than a walking joke. Yeah, they've gotten away with bloody murder, and it looks more and more that they'll never be held accountable for it, but there's little you and I can do about that. Instead, speaking for myself, I'm gonna be forward-looking. I'm going to do everything I can in my (obviously limited) power as a voter and a citizen to get competency back in our government.

I'm rambling, and I'm almost always in way over my head in the Politics forum, but I just wanted to say that I'm starting to smell a free and working Republic again, and we can't let these Constitution-fuckers sap our will to fight. Yeah, we got raped, and the perps are taunting us with it endlessly, but we just can't give up.

Because we're the Good Guys. And we love our country.

Especially since it would have to be a REPUBLICAN admin doing so to get anywhere with it.

Yay JS! It's too bad I can't give you pos rep for this. Very well said. Maybe the upshot of all this malfeasance is a real working understanding of how democracy can fail and how it needs the active participation of the people to function.

I think you just want the terrorists to win. Move to France, lie-beral.

Can't ... give up ... Freedom Fries...

I saw a great speaker at work the other day talking about the sad state of public education in the States (which really is a topic for another thread, but bare with me) and he talked about how things were going to get a whole lot worse before they got better and that the reason countries like China and India are greatly surpassing us educationally is because they've been able to change things quickly and adapt to rapid alterations in business, science and the world market in general. This, of course, often comes at the expense of certain personal freedoms (sad as things are here, I do NOT want to be living in China anytime soon). Sadly, nothing in this country is going to change because, essentially, the people with the power don't care about education because the less educated people are, the less they participate, the more money they can make and unless education is about either training people to spend or make more money (which, of course, it is more and more about these days) nobody really gives a shit.

But what he said that really filled me with some hope...hope I haven't felt in a really long time...is that we have something really unique in this country, and I think it's something that's evident everywhere, including right here in this forum and on this thread.

US Citizens are unique in their willingness to be absolutely self-critical. I know it's hard to believe, I know there are a lot of other people out there who stand by Bush and the administration, but that number has been dropping fairly steadily since September 11th. Bush's approval rating has dropped to one of the worst in presidential history. 48% of Americans poled said he's the least intelligent president since WW II. The war is incredibly unpopular, a wide majority of Americans acknowledge we made a mistake invading Iraq, are angry about how the administration essentially has blatantly lied to them again and again, are calling for serious change, calling for the resignations of people like Gonzales and Rove (and Cheney, and etc.). Look at the massive turnaround in Congress last fall. Look at the enthusiasm for the democratic candidates, look at how much the GOP is in absolute shambles right now.

We know we've done wrong and we want to change. It's the same way we were after Vietnam. How many other countries would view something as tragic as that war and build a monument honoring dead soldiers who fought in it, offering that monument as as apology? Certainly not a country like France, too proud to admit that they owe an apology to Algeria, too proud to be self critical.

So, it's a small hope, but it exists. I think as long as we continue to be critical, be as hard on our country as possible, there is hope. Never let anyone tell you that it doesn't matter. Tell them that it matters too much.

The more I hear about this contractor abuses and stuff the more I believe the true motivation for the Iraq War was to just set up a big buffet for all the defense companies. Start a war, eat up government dollars, solidify executives' golden parachutes and get out before anyone starts asking questions about where all the money went.

War for profit! It's fantastic!

On a related subject, do some reading into Blackwater Security if you want to have horrid fucking nightmares for a week straight.

Honestly, I support reinstating the draft. Because, hey, the draft ain't perfect, but it's better than an army of fucking mercenaries which is what we've got.

Logic so flawed it created a butterfly effect that resulted in someone getting ass raped in Manitoba.

It did NOT.

All I'm saying is that while there are no good ways to wage war, pretty much the worst way you could POSSIBLY fucking do it is to pay private companies to wage it for you. As deeply rooted the military is with private defense contractors, we are very, very close to having an completely privatized army, the thought of which is so terrifying it makes me sick.

If the draft was reinstated, this war wouldn't even have started.
It almost seems that not enough US soldiers have been killed for the average american to care.

Unless they're "The Wild Geese" ,relying on mercenaries is a bad, bad idea.
Just imagine all the horrible shit that could happen(and probably have) ,when a war is fought by a company trying to cut costs.

"Taking prisoners? Too expensive, kill them, but remember to use your knives, bullets aren't cheap and we're on a budget."

"Hey, we got a killer deal on some old mustard gas, no sense in letting it go to waste"

At least with the military, you're supposed to have a chain of command, where people are supposed to be held accountable for their actions.

The guy who got raped? Lives three doors down from me.

On the mercenary issue, how must that feel to be an actual Marine and know that not only are there dudes who get paid 3-4 TIMES what you make doing the same job you do or less dangerous jobs, but that those same people aren't bound by the same rules as everyone else in the normal military. Mercenaries can do whatever they want and no one is holding them accountable. And the administration (despite my total lack of pity for mercenaries) gets away with treating them like garbage as well. The wives of some of them launched some kind of petition/legal inquiry into how their husbands died and they were stonewalled at every turn. War without end. I cannot see, even with a clear Democratic majority win in '08, that you will be able to leave Iraq anytime soon. So far I have not been impressed with the total no-show by the Democrats when it comes to this war.

I disagree. I couldn't think of a better way to get people involved in politics. There's no risk at all right now. I'd actually believe people would rally in the streets to end this war 24/7 if their sons where forced to go to war.

Plus, future generation wouldn't take the idea of going to war so lightly like this group of assclowns did. Yes America, I'm calling us all assclowns.

Also, we really do have an obligation to serve our country in case of a REAL threat.

Boomstick wants to live in a Starship Troopers world.

AND THEY'LL WIN!!!

i've already got plans to become a back woods guerilla freedom fighter if shit goes bonkers come october.

You just gave me a boner with that fantasy. Please make it real.

Seriously, though... I go back and forth on the draft thing. This week I'm all for it. Next week I want to completely pull all troops out of Iraq and say fuck it. The next week I want to fix things there.

I don't think being fer or agin the draft has anything to do with Iraq.

And I don't think Heinlein was off-base with Starship Troopers - which doesn't glorify fascism as much as point out that there will always be a need to shed blood to defend free society.

I don't care about all that stuff, Chavez. I just want to know that there are bugs that big out there that we may do battle with.

...and that the Kurgan, Charlie Sheen's ex, and Doogie Howser MD will be an important part of that fight.

Well, if that were all he was saying, that would be fine. But he also seemed to believe that nobody had a right to participate in their culture unless they had shown a willingness to lay down their life for it. To which I say "bullshit".

I am from a country which has compulsory military service after school, for a bit less than a year. I actually was in the army 2 years voluntarily (which leaves a big fucking social stigma on you here) as trained sniper and drill instructor. From experience, I tell you this: a Draft is going to do exactly one thing: Start a massive anti-war sentiment thats already boiling behind closed doors and put it on the streets, into the next election, and probably years to come.

The american mob mentality has never been very big about leaving ones comfort zone. Most people would rather be left alone, than actively involved in the politics, the infighting and generally in anything "their" nation does.
I dont say its better everywhere else.... some countries have extremely outspoken and riot-liable people (France comes to mind) which accept very little in the way of wars, or infringements of personal rights, others have a lethargic "yeah, whatever" stance as is the case in the US apparently.

In the end, I presume a Draft is one of the few things able to get enough bodies into the army to actually get anywhere, but since this war isnt fought for, or with, military considerations, but just for politics and money, its in the interest of the current government to avoid a Draft, in order to have even a snowball-in-hell chance to get anywhere in the next election.

Its a matter of fact, sadly, that these guys are probably rather spending more money, sacrificing more soldiers and material rather than do something that puts their political agendas at risk.

Well, if one isn't willing to sacrifice to preserve the culture, why should one necessarily enjoy the same rewards as those who do? (and I can't recall the book as well as I should, but I believe those who didn't serve weren't excluded from the culture, it was that service earned you more rights).

People who didn't serve weren't citizens and couldn't vote.

When you look at how many "citizens" of the US don't vote when they have the right, that might not put all that many people out.

So far as presented in the book, I didn't get the impression that civilians had any problems as far as freedom of speech, religion, assembly, unreasonable search and seizure, etc - or at least no more so than citizens did.

I don't think any other advantages to citizenship were mentioned in Starship Troopers either. But this is a Heinlein novel, after all: he's not world-building, he's lecturing on the merits of patriotism and social responsibility and wearing your moral fibre on your sleeve and stuff. He's so dreary: the characters in Heinlein novels are all a mix of Captain America and The Hardy Boys a la 1960, except the one buffoon who exists solely for Laz Long to lecture to.

Quite so. Heinlein is considered a giant of science fiction for good reason, but his political commentary is not among the things that should be fondly remembered. It was almost childishly simplistic stuff.

I don't think it's that so much as that military service teaches people how to think about what's best for a group instead of what's best for themselves. Plus, if something is just given to you, you won't appreciate it, as evidenced by what Chavez mentioned and how most US citizens don't vote. It may be childishly simplistic, but that doesn't mean it's not true.

The military aims to break down the individuality of its recruits. It's something they're proud of. I'm not saying that people who come from the military aren't necessarily as free-thinking as people who don't, but the radicals and those in the peace movement that protested against and eventually brought those fighting in Vietnam home were primarily people who had not served in the military. For those who choose to enroll in the military, that's great, but it should in no way be a barometer to test one's citizenship.

Also, I don't see how instituting a draft will help us win in Iraq. Will having more soldiers there suddenly create a stable political situation where bitter enemies are suddenly going to be conciliatory? The surge points to a negative answer.

Oh, I agree. But you can't deny that a large chunk of Americans don't take their right to vote seriously. I think Heinlein was just suggesting that we do something to change that. Granted, I haven't read it since I was a teenager.

There were quite a few veterans who spoke up against the war. One of them ran for president in '04.

If the draft was instituted, you'd see more of a mix of political ideologies among veterans. Even now they're not universally right-wing warmongers, especially not among the grunts. One of the reasons WWII is such a warm-and-fuzzy war in our collective memories is that citizens of all different political and cultural backgrounds came together to fight a genuine menace to the world. Wars since then have been espoused by the right-wing, hawkish, imperialist sector, but there was a time when the American army was fairly egalitarian. I think that's what people are nostalgic for, and why some left-wing sorts are in favour of a draft.

I think the idea is that if every young person in the country were required to serve, we wouldn't be so quick to go to war. Politicians would hesitate to sign that bill if their own kids' lives were on the line. As it is, the majority of the military is filled with people from poor families, and Washington isn't known for its empathy with the poor.

The theory is that with worldwide birthrates declining, countries will be FAR less likely to go to war because you'll have more only children getting waxed, which is bad for homefront morale (not that any parent having a child killed by war is easy, but I don't think it's a stretch to take it a bit less hard when you've got 7 other kids).

Except the U.S. birthrate isn't dropping.