Expelled: Rebel Ben Stein takes on Big Science

I can't wait for the unveiling of these new "facts"!

I look forward to Devin's review.

I knew that Stein was a staunch Republican and worked for Nixon, but I always assumed his right-ness was on strictly economic, non-neo-con grounds. I didn't think there were many ID supporters among non-Christians (assuming that Stein's not a convert), so this is sort of surprising.

Sigh. This shit again? Hasn't ID been debunked as a scientific theory time and time again? How are you supposed to be able to scientifically disprove a theory that just basically says "God did it."?

Stein's a bozo who has carved out a little niche for himself. He got called out on Craig Ferguson the other night. Ferguson needled him pretty good for his lip service.

Here's the point Stein's film appears to miss-
Religion and faith based teachings, no matter how "valid", have NO place in the public school system. This phrase is especially galling- "...expose the suppression by science's anti-theist elite..."
It suggests that religion has a place in the classroom. It also implies that it's "suppression" is an evil conspiracy shrouded in secrecy. The fact is this "suppression" should be common sense. Religion is taught in the home, not the public sector.

There's never anything predictive or testable about ID's claims. They're all flimsy emotional appeals (like "look how the banana has a pop-top lid!" or "The [organ, cell structure, etc] is simply too complex to have been randomly created out of nothing").

Mike Huckabee did his best to dodge his ID support on Bill Maher's show last weekend. He said something to the effect of "I'm not saying the Earth is 6,000 years old, or 6,000,000,000- I'm just saying I don't think we're all here because of some random chance." When logic fails, fall back on anthrocentrism, because if the universe wasn't designed specifically for humans, I DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN IT!

One of my friends roped me and another friend into going to this show where suposedly people would be lifting cars and breaking logs etc, which turned out to be a Christian propaganda fest. One of the little video clips they played in between stunts "disproved" the big bang theory by putting one of those little fireworks inside a glass jar and setting it off, and then showing us how there was no life inside the jar. "Explosions don't create life" they proclaimed. The other friend who came with us who is a staunch atheist yelled and cussed so hard he actually burst the capillaries in one of his eyes. Then people started yelling at him for ruining it for everyone. It was a whole big thing.

I just loved the example because a) it was so unfathomably stupid, and b) There almost certainly was some form of life in the jar.

Also, does it need to be pointed out that the wants of children should not be key in the determining of school curricula no matter what the area of study may be? If THE YOUTH OF AMERICA launched a national campaign to include more information on alchemy and fewer on the periodic table in biology classes, it would be laughed off.

No Intelligence Allowed? Is that the subtitle or a requirement for viewing?

So how long until the thread turns into whether or not Atheists have faith?

Well, it's in the religion forum, so there's really no avoiding it. The number of posts until we reach that point is inconsequential in the face of such an absolute inevitability.

You bring up an important point, Guttenberg. Atheists do NOT have faith, except for the faith they have that they don't have any faith.

Oh ye of little faith.

Or more specifically, oh ye of some faith due to the fact that ye do not have faith.

I love the jar trick. Here's my version: I take a fish in a fishbowl and cover it up with a black sheet. I dance around the bowl for a minute, flapping my arms wildly, and then I dramatically remove the sheet. The fact that the fish doesn't have legs, I proclaim, is a stinging indictment of evolution.

This is disappointing. Stein was always one of my favourite Republicans because he always had well thought out, intelligent reasons for being a Republican. He sincerely believed that a smaller government was the best option for the states. He honestly believed in the free market system. I thought he was the last of the true conservatives and not a neo-con, fundie idiot.

It's unlikely, but this could be just another payday for him.

Keep an eye out for the newest Stein-themed game show, "Win Ben Stein's dignity."

Apparently, he's also vehemently pro-life.

I wonder if there's some underlying psychological link between belief in free market systems/small government and (for lack of a better way of characterizing them) those beliefs we associate with fundamentalist, literalist Christian types. I mean, did these things become associated only because of some precedents set in American politics or is there some character trait that makes one prone to being a staunch capitalist and a holy roller?

Obviously, there are Randian Objectivist types who manage to be extremely right-wing without being Christian, but you could argue that Objectivism is just another hard-n-fast belief system, much like a fundamentalist take on religion in some respects.

Sorry, my youth fucked off and left me with greying hair and a grumpy attitude, so we havn't been on speaking terms for a while. If you'd like my approaching middle age terror to sign up, he'd be more than happy to.

I theorize that the link between republicanism and holy rolling is that holy rollers vote. Being (or pretending you are) a pious, self-righteous evangelist puts you on the fast track to locking red states.

It seems ridiculous that people are so concerned with getting creationism in our schools when they don't even do a good job with what they teach now. Maybe the best way to debunk ID would to let the public schools run with it and fail miserably.

It's late so forgive me if this makes no sense, but doesn't a system that promotes a rich class and a poor class serve the Church's best interests? You want a lower class who need faith in order to believe that life can get better (not to sound patronizing, but a lower quality of education helps), and a wealthy class to give the poor people an example that it can happen, and also provide the church with money and influence. A prosperous middle class promotes the idea that all you need is hard work and fiscal responsibility to lead a happy secure life.

Oh, no, he's a pretty insane Neo-con fundie. He's either gotten a lot worse about it the last couple of years, or he's just come out of the closet. I've read a couple of op-ed type pieces he wrote - I thought they were jokes, until I got to the end and there was no punchline.

The best expert the far Right could come up with to present facts regarding Cosmogony, Biology and Astro-Physics is someone whose expertise lies in Economics?

Apparently the "evil conspiracy" of science suppression has reached everywhere but macro and micro economic courses.

Don't do it, horrid, you're going to need him when those kids start playing on your lawn.

But isn't Ben Stein Jewish, and doesn't Judaism clash with Christian fundamentalism?

That's really too bad...I guess I'm down to Frank Cobretti and the Alan Alda character from West Wing as examples of decent Republicans.

You've never heard of Jews for Jesus?

Once, but Rex Kramer punched the guy out before he could explain himself.

That's why I felt I had to use this qualifier: "(for lack of a better way of characterizing them) those beliefs we associate with fundamentalist, literalist Christian types."

I'm not sure what Stein's beliefs are. His wiki entry says he was born to Jewish parents (duh), but doesn't say whether he's practicing, a secular Jew, or a converted Christian. He's obviously not an Orthodox Jew, in any case. Regardless, he does seem to share two key beliefs with fundie Christians (creationism/ID and the idea that abortion is bad), and it's those beliefs that I intended to reference.

As for Judaism clashing with Christian fundamentalism, that's a whole bag of WTF? of late, with many fundamentalist Christians aligning with Zionist Jews because of some Biblical reference that suggests that the Jews must occupy their homeland prior to Jesus' return. Many Zionists are cool with it (despite the fact that the Christians presumably believe the unconverted Jews will go to Hell upon JC's return), because they figure it's politically expedient to join up with any party that's anti-Palestinian.

CNN's God's Warriors series last week dedicated signifiant time to this idea in both the segment on fundamentalist Judaism and the segment on fundamentalist Christianity.

I never understood that. How are they for him? Do they believe he is the son of God, or are they just kind of 'rooting' for him?

It's an intentional misnomer. It's really an evangelical Christian group that seeks to convert Jews to Christianity.

I've read about this, but I didn't think it was to the point where they'd start adopting some of the fundamentalist dogma.

Maybe they chose him because Stein doesn't necessarily believe in ID, but is still wary of the 'power of scientists' in America, making him someone they can say is unbiased in his reporting. So, he's not pushing ID, but merely questioning the blind acceptance of science.

My favorite part:

So they're actually arguing that science classes should only teach the theories that are widely accepted by the public. Or, as a wiser man than I put it,

Very possible. Also, I'm not sure if the Zionist Jews who align with the conservative Christians necessarily adhere to their views on ID, etc. It might be a single-issue partnership. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if there were secular Zionist Jews who would gladly accept the fundie Christian support, if only to secure Israel against the Palestinians. Zionism, especially post-WWII, is probably more a political movement than a religious one.

Like you said, though, Stein's reasoning might have absolutely nothing to do with deeply held religious beliefs or even loyalty to Israel. But there's definitely some strange bedfellowing going on.

Grosses. Me. Out.

Here's their website.

The first thing I think about when I hear the name Ben Stein is REBEL.

This subject pretty much pisses me off more than just about anything.

Oy Vey. Their wikipedia entry is also worth a quick read. Chilling stuff.

Any time bullshit like this comes across my eyes I just read part of Guns, Germs and Steel, and my sense of truth is restored.

Guns, Germs and Steel reads better as a history book than as an intellectual/empirical treatise. There are so many flaws in Diamond's reasoning, including massive tautological fallacies, it's hard to take his conclusions seriously.

The fact that "MOST" Americans believe something has nothing to do with whether something is true or not. Most of humanity, at various times, have maintained various belief systems that were proven to be demonstrably false. That this argument was posited in a supposedly intellectual effort to legitimatize creation theory is laughable. Ideas stand and fall on their own merit, not due to popular opinion.

It isn't blind.

Jews for Jesus exists? All this time I thought it was just an oxymoron used as a joke. Weird.

Well, yeah, but that's the way they see it.

Seeing as the movie looks like it'll be laughably dismissable, I think I'm more offended by the trailer's constant "Bad to the Bone" riff.

Ooh, new thread topic: The most tired, banal music cues in films/trailers. Go.

The opening notes of Solsbury Hill being played about 75% of the way through the trailer. Someone who never thought they'd go back home/find a way to love again is going to do just that!

I swear that song became public domain at some point, along with "All Star," "Wild Thing," "Tubthumping," and "Bad to the Bone." Either that or it only costs about $10 to use it in a trailer, for some reason.

Full article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/sc...ewanted=1&_r=1

Not only does that make sense but that is really the whole point of religion, an ego trip. The people who generally have the least ego needs to fill are the middle class. They don't have much reason to feel inferior and they also don't have much reason to restrict the freedom and mobility of society. Most people who are rich are power hungry, they have major ego needs to fill. Money fills some of it, but they'd also like to say they are best friends with the master of the universe. The cartoon character of He-Man is not believable enough, so they call it god. They also don't want to lose what they got, they'd like to freeze the status quo, or widen the gap between rich and poor. Poor people generally feel insecure about being poor, they have ego needs to fill because of that. Being able to say "I might be poor but I am actually really powerful because I am a close personal friend of a magical all powerful genie" does something for them. And of course the rich people know this, so they push religion on poor people as an opiate so they are less likely to be motivated to change the balance of power. That is why religion was pushed on slaves in america, that is why king louis 14 said he was chosen by god, that is why the entire middle east is so strongly religious and so strong class divided, etc, etc. The same shit is going on still. Douchebag Republicans love religion because it cements their postion in society. It is totally non productive to society as a whole, but they don't care about that, they care about cementing their postion. Very unethically selfish. And then dumbfucks, mostly in the south and midwest, fall for this religious ego trip ploy like a cheap card trick. It's really pathetic and disgusting.