Dearest Chewers - Page 2

You know, I have to admit, it does get sort of annoying reading a post-release to find people's opinions of it and having to get through a whole page of posts that basically said "I really want to see this" just to get someone who actually saw the movie to say "Yeah I saw it. It was decent." Gee thanks pal, that was totally worth it.

I've been guilty of it though a few time I will admit, but usually I'm too damn lazy to make a one sentence post saying how much I can't see something. I don't know how you people get the motivation.

This is how I feel. I don't really care if people do this kind of thing or not, but I also don't see the point in it. If you really feel like you need to, by all means, go ahead. It just seems like a waste of time to me. In real life, if you are participating in a conversation you are expected to contribute something.. Saying "yeah that looks cool" to someone you are talking to isn't the same as posting it on a messageboard, but again, it doesn't really bother me. I just don't see the point.

Cool, another reason to quadruple-guess myself before every post.

Will this be good enough for the boards? Will I get ripped to shreds? Five edits is enough, right? This is insightful, right?

Aw, fuck. I'll just wait for someone else to say it and see if they get piled on.

That was me from the Jesse James focused film thread a few days ago. In this specific situation it's a film that I've been looking foward to since the first teaser that was released in mid-2006. I had just re-read the thread and looked yet again to see if it was showing in my area, and it isn't. Of course, I'm annoyed by this. Instead of knocking on my neighboor's door to tell him that it's geographically impossible for me to catch the film, I went into the thread designated for the movie, to yet again vent my frustration that I can't see one of the films I've been anticpating for the better part of two years. And a film that people have been screening for the better part of a year. I'll be the first to tell you it wasn't exactly one of my most thought out posts, but oh well. At the time I didn't see the harm in posting my feelings about it, but now I'll think twice.

It has nothing to do with whether their anticipation is "valid" and more with the fact that nobody gives a flying fuck whether you're going to buy a ticket to The Darjeeling Limited.

There's a difference between posting your reaction to a movie/trailer/script and simply acknowledging that thing's existence. The former invites discussion, the latter is just self-absorbed chatter. The prime example being AICN's Talkbacks, which are nothing more than a thousand shrieking monologues. Democratic, yes. Rewarding, not so much.

Seriously, I don't think "Add to the conversation or stay out of it" is that radical of a proposal.

Whether there's a valid point here or not, it's pretty useless. How many people are going to read this and take it to heart? Sounds like a waste of typing.

What does good writing have to do with a messageboard? This ain't Shocklines...is every poster on the boards an established writer?

I get what you're saying, and probably in the post-release threads it makes sense, because people who haven't seen the movie yet don't have anything to contribute, but you came at this all wrong.

What Ahoatam says scares me, because I know how tough these boards can be on new people- I remember almost-posting all the time when I first joined this place, second guessing myself and rethinking hitting Submit. It just seems like this kind of crap is no way to install a community. This place has been getting even more lively in the last year or so and I love it, I really do, but I'd hate for us to miss out on more conversations just cause people are afraid to throw their opinions in the mix because they're wary of the old hat chewers ripping on them for any little thing.

I mean, we're all brutal, but we're fair, for the most part.

Besides, I'm betting if we looked through some of your old posts we'd find some that expressed excitement about a movie and nothing else. Everyone gets giddy about a film once in a while.

But, at the same time, I think it's that fear that what you say may called out for being stupid or redundant that can encourage better discourse and conversation. I've improved a lot since I started posting, but I don't think I that'd be the case if I didn't get my ass kicked.

On the one hand, reading 20 posts that say the exact same thing is tiresome and a bit of a waste of decent convo. On the other, Alex is basically correct.

Basically, there needs to be a balance. I think its ok to put certain bad habits to rest, by calling out certain posters for indulging in them. It does encourage more substantive posts.

But let's not get carried away with assuming one's motivations. I'm not trying to inflate my post count, nor do I think that most of you give a shit what I think. For those that do kinda give a little bit o' shit, you can register my excitement and note the chorus of fevered hype. The rest can (and do) ignore me. Which is fine cause I do plenty of ignoring myself.

I'm inclined to agree with this sentiment, actually. At least to an extent. Brutality can weed out people who aren't going to contribute to the discourse, or force those who want to but lack good communication skills to improve them.

I've posted more than my fair of stupid shit and been called on it. It doesn't bother me. If I do something stupid, I want to be told so...so I can go give myself fifty lashes in the corner and all that.

Oh the irony.

I'm definitely guilty of this. I have a hard time typing what's in my head. I might have a thought in my head that sounds intelligent--to me, at least-- but when I type it, it comes out not as great as I thought it would be. I spend more time than I need to thinking about what I've posted.

Is it spelled right?, Did I leave something out?, Will it upset anyone?

Pretty much what Ahoatam said.

For me, it has to do with the fact that before I came here on a regular basis, I went to AICN everyday. And as everyone knows, the people on there are generally awful. So I thought that the average AICN talkbacker was like anyone who posted on these kinds of forums.

When I got tired of that, I went over here to get my movie news and eventually started lurking on the forums. Seeing the people on here interact with each other and realizing that this was the complete opposite of the AICN talkbacks was something of a revelation. So I sign up for these forums. I get so excited to post here that my excitement trumps everything else.

I like to think I'm improving but who knows. Like Cow Puncher said, I've posted a good amount of stupid shit and have been called on it (http://chud.com/forums/showthread.ph...ght=Snow+Crash). If I do post something stupid I want to be called on it as well. I'm sure I'll keep posting stupid stuff anyway, it's my job to keep it to a minimum.

Dellamorte didnt sound condescending at all, did he.

He does not suffer fools gladly.

So now we're supposed to apply The Elements of Style to our message board posts? Relax, Andre -- writing the box office column doesn't make you Faulkner.

I'm guilty of this. I love films so much that I sometimes get so excited that I'll put my heart before my head and share my thoughts, albeit not adding much to the conversation. Partially because I don't know many film lovers in my real life and CHUD is one of the only places I can go to celebrate film with others.

I'll try to be better about it, but Dre I think you need to be a bit more forgiving...we're all here to share our love and enthusiasm for films, sometimes it can get out of hand but it's not as unpleasant as reading posts of people insulting each other in a flame war, which happens here far more often (i.e. this thread).

Aside from you and Nick (and Eilieen?), I suspect none of the staff are particularly interested in such a thing.

I'm afraid this is a YP Andre, not an MP.

Installation of community failed! Wrong disc in drive :E.

Fucking Vista.

Critical Error! Your post is not interesting enough.

I knew I should've run it by the committee.

"Hi! It looks like you're trying to post some bullshit on the internet that nobody cares about. Would you like some assistance?"

<oldbrucewaynehitbyabus.gif>

Mr. Clip can assist you. Please choose one of the following cadences:

Condescending
Long Winded Metaphor
70's Blaxploitation Quotes

I wish that fucking Star Chamber had a padlock on the door.

So in a thread about a movie review one shouldn't be able to omit the obvious ("this post is about the movie review") and discuss how excited they are to see the film, or frustrated they are that they can't, unless they explicitly state it was the review that made them so? So CHUD is only a place for Chewers to discuss how CHUD affects them, not their feelings on film in general and from other sources (movie trailers, other websites, etc)?

I get the whole "pointless posts are boring to read." Fine, don't read them. One liners aren't that difficult to skip. And if you want to build community, telling people they shouldn't post their enthusiasm about film in a film-based message board probably isn't going to help.

Thing is, for all their talk about what they think makes good posts, these guys aren't interested in bad posters getting better. They're interested in bad posters just going away. They couldn't care less if they help anyone.

If your "feelings on film" boil down to expressing interest in seeing a movie, then yes, perhaps film discussion isn't the place for you. This part of your post:

"So CHUD is only a place for Chewers to discuss how CHUD affects them, not their feelings on film in general and from other sources (movie trailers, other websites, etc)?"

Is misconstruing Andre's post. He was saying there's a difference between talking about a review and saying that you want to see a movie but don't have the time, or have to watch the kids, etc. etc.. One involves being struck by a piece of critical work, the other is talking about nothing having to do with film.

Reading over this thread, I can see really see where the division rests. The people on Andre's side see a film community like CHUD and think it should be born out of critical discourse. In other words, they identify film lovers by their thoughts on film, not on a person stating, "Hey, I love film." I think those arguing against Andre's point are people who will settle for a film community that talks more about being a film community than having the conversations that would normally occur in such a group.

It has to be one or the other? There can't be a mixture of both?

Maybe some of the "I can't wait for this film" posts are new members sticking their toe in the proverbial water before jumping in. Maybe they just want to make their opinion known. What does it matter? Some of the people backing Andre have made plenty of useless, one-line posts on numerous topics, but no one is asking them to knock it off.

And like I said above, this thread wasn't born of a desire to improve anything, it was born of a desire to look down noses at people.

What would you want someone like Dellamorte to do? Start a course? Create a "How to Post Better" wiki? This type of progress you desire from posters -- as if it could be mapped out on some sort of chart, watching Verbal Kint go from good, to decent to bad -- can only occur if the "bad poster" in question puts some effort to it.

And if you look at "bad posters," I imagine you'll see the reason they stay bad is that they are stubborn, and stick to the tired notion that everyone deserves an opinion, and no opinion can be wrong.

And I'd argue that sort of culture includes the type of posting that Andre describes in his original post. Posting for the sake of posting; writing about film without really writing about film.

Oh, so the plaebs vs. the film scholars. Got it.

Ahhhh, the good old days.

No, no-- you got it wrong. It's the plaebs vs the fhilm skullers.

Plebe.

Remember your 60s well, do you?

What do you want instead? A minimum standards test? You have to qualify for message board posting? That only people who already have encyclopedic knowledge of film and can write incisive, thoughtful posts be allowed to contribute?

And I'm totally sure every single one of us was Pauline Kael when we first started posting here.

Just thought I'd quote that again, for emphasis.

Why are you always, steadfastly on the side of mediocrity?

Belethedheliel and Dickson -- Why do you try considering my point rather than reducing it to some ridiculous summary? All I'd ask posters to do is think critically about a film before posting about one.

Is that really too much to ask? I think Dickson's Pauline Kael post above is ridiculous, but if I were to ask people to strive to be like Pauline, is that an abomination? To ask people to strive for that level of quality, even if they won't reach it?

It's why I quoted Slater's line above. It's somewhat frightening that so many people are overreacting to the basic idea of, "Hey, we can do better."

No one disagrees with Slater's comment, they'd be stupid to. Of course we could have better film conversations, and it'd be great if a lot of the inane posts that litter every thread were improved. But that's not how this thread started, or what people are saying. They're saying that no one cares about your stupid posts, so shut up. Huge, condescending difference there.

See, here's the funny thing -- I want the mediocre posters to improve. You want them to stay mediocre so you have an outlet for your condescension.

Yes, of course. Written tests and all that.

Seriously, this isn't hard, and doesn't require anything more than self-policing. People keep citing AICN's talkbacks as the gold standard for bad discourse, but it isn't enough to simply say this place isn't as bad as that. My comment to Alex above was snark, but the grain of truth is there-- when I started posting here I was a bit cautious and cared to make sure that I was saying something substantive or insightful or funny, and I think a lot of people did. From what Alex said, it sounds like he did, too. It just doesn't seem like that's the case with a lot of posts, and it isn't really impolite for people who have invested a lot in this website to say, hey, y'know, why don't we all try to say things worth saying. The inevitable response of "Well, who decides what's worth saying?" doesn't shut down the inquiry. The answer is that we all do.

Flyarz, you and Slater do a much better job of communicating this idea than Andre "People Skills" Dellamorte. His posts are saturated in contempt. People don't want to take advice from a guy who basically says "You suck. Stop doing shit I don't like." It's easier to make fun of him than take his demand (and it was a demand, not a request or constructive criticism) seriously.
To quote some black guy in a movie I saw- "Who cares whatchoo think?! You a punk anyway!"

I really don't see what's condescending about Dre's post. It's blunt. It's honest. And it's a well reasoned opinion. And even if you think his original posts are condescending, I think he perfectly explains his position here:

"Do you really care that someone is enthused to see something in a post release thread? Do you think it's awesome that someone posts in a thread about, say, Akira Kurosawa that they really want to see Yojimbo but haven't yet? If you are around people who have had experiences, wouldn't you rather absorb the real than comment on your lack?"

It seems the only counter-argument people have been able to provide is "It's better here than AICN" or "We all can't be Pauline Kael." In other words, people are choosing to settle rather than strive. And that's probably why some people read Dre's post as condescending -- he's challenging what's become standard around here.

How did you know I was in the military?!

Flyarz, if I honestly believed this was all about "Hey, we can do better," I'd agree with you. But it's never put that way. Too often it's about who can land the snarkiest insult on a post they don't like than making this place any better. We don't get "Well, why are you excited about this film?" or "Is this director a favorite of yours?" or anything that might guide the conversation, we get "Well thanks Captain Obvious" or "Do us a favor and stop posting" or some other condescending bullshit. And it's the people who bitch the most about the level of discourse here who do they least about helping it and the most about keeping it all about the fucking one-liners.

There's a pretty interesting conversation about 2001: A Space Odyssey going on here, and you know how many posts Andre and Brad and Devin have in it? Not a fucking one. But it's a guy saying "Damn, I wish The Assassination of Jesse James were playing near me" who's the problem?

I like how I'm one of the snobs in Dickson's mediocre world, when all I've been doing is making outdated Microsoft paperclip jokes.

You're not a movie snob, you're a snark shark. I guess that's what Richard was referring to.