Fat Acceptance - Page 2

I'm in no way qualified to comment on the science behind anything she's saying about diseases, etc. But, I can't agree with your read here. This:
doesn't say that to me. The completely "even if you don't call them diets" part in particular. To me it looks defeatist and like a pre-emptive strike against any attempt at dietary (or even physical) improvement. The average American male eats 2,618 calories a day. Over the course of a week, that's 2,926 calories over what's recommended for the average male (2,200/day). That's pretty obscene, especially when you take average dietary mix into account. Now, if you believe that she's taking only atkins/south beach to task, what I'm saying isn't all that relevant. But, by my reading of her statement, it's actually a scary acquiescence to poor dietary practices.

I'm a big proponent of working with the body you've got. I was a college athlete, and outside of the guys on the track and football team, the athletes I knew were more likely to look fit and well-proportioned than like the weightlifters in the college weightroom. Skinny isn't the only thing that matters (as you accurately point out). Still, I think we're being far too generous to her points. I'm sure there are thousands of people out there like Zooey's friend who eat healthy and remain overweight. I also know of some people who can eat whatever they want and remain thin. But, a lifetime of observation leads me to believe that there's more than a slight correlation between a bad diet and weight gain/health issues.

EDIT: I also want to point out that in the VERY small, but also completely nonrepresentative population of this thread, we have several "freaks of nature" who have managed to keep weight off. Granted, the plural of anecdote isn't evidence, but I do think it's telling.

Turns out you're right. I checked the original post to which she linked, and there are some very uncomfortable conflations of "diet" with "portion control," "lifestyle change," and, most disconcertingly, "eating right and exercising."

It's unfortunate she included this unsubstantiated claim, because I suspect there are some pretty good points she's making, overall.

Oh, there's a huge correlation. But I think the key here is being conscious that some extra body fat isn't necessarily indicative of a sedentary lifestyle, and a thin physique doesn't necessarily mean you're healthy.

For what it's worth, Harding (who, I admitted above, has exhibited flawed thinking elsewhere) gives dieters five years. I have no idea how long some of the dieters in this thread have kept the weight off. I'm with her when it comes to being skeptical of diet diets that require anything more complex than "eat healthier food, eat less food, and exercise more" (despite parting ways with her drastically on this last point).

I've got you covered.

And Zooey's friend sounds like my best friend. She's overweight, and I've never seen a person who eats healthier and works out more than she does. And a little of the weight comes off, but not enough. She's the world's healthiest eater, and eats so little it's amazing she has the energy she does to work out that much. So what's to be done? I'm not saying, "Hey, lay around on the sofa and eat twinkies - it's not your fault OR your problem." But clearly all overweight people can't be put into the same category; for some like my friend and Zooey's friend, it's a deeper issue than just "Hey, you're fat and lazy."

Completely agreed. There's a system that works, but it's exactly what you've put in quotes up there. Shortcuts don't exist.

Well, Gary Taubes has a new book out that pretty much makes this case. I also think he's full of shit, does research to support his theory rather than to find answers and makes as many suppositions as the people he tries to defy. He's just another Atkins slave. But, to each their own.

There's certainly science to the idea that being 'overweight' isn't terrible for you, it's when you get to the obese level that things get fucked up. The thing is, Kate Harding is doing the exact same thing the people on the other side are doing. Her problem is that she thinks way too much is being made of weight, and specifically that there are a lot of people who are overweight and generally healthy. From this, she concludes that all diets fail, people are not in control of their weight and that weight isn't a health problem. Like Taubes, she's only going to do the research which supports this idea, and won't mention the studies which don't. The idea that overweight people are not higher risk for all sorts of illnesses is just insulting.

And anybody who things that humiliating people into weight loss will actually work beyond the random Perkis example is obviously clueless to human nature.

Are you really using some random fucking video to support your point when 99% of all music videos do the exact opposite?

Or just being funny? Because that video is really funny.

How dare they put fat people in a music video! My family might see that sort of thing on one of those deep cable stations and suddenly decide to shovel multiple pizzas into their gaping maws.

I'm a proponent of a healthy lifestyle versus a certain body type. I will never be skinny. It's not my body type. I can be less fat, however. I'm working on that. I saw a specialist in regards to what a healthy weight for me would be and it's well over the BMI for my height. I'm trusting that she knew what she was talking about. We decided that I should lose some more weight but that it's not nearly as important as maintaining a healthy, active lifestyle.

I heavy fight three nights a week. I play hockey once a week. On weekends I'm usually doing either more fighting or going for hikes. I think I've got that part down. I just don't look like I'm in that good of shape but I'd put my heart up against a lot of hearts belonging to skinny people.

OTOH, a lot of the OP does seem like self-defeating claptrap. She makes some good points but it's blurred by the anger, insults and strawman arguements.

So, what do you say about the rest of the music video age? How big of a monster was Freddy Mercury (well, before the AIDS)?

Just to be clear, you mean he's full of shit, generally, not that he's full of shit about Weight Watchers and the like creating and exploiting the fear of being overweight, right? I guess I take that sort of thing for granted when we're talking about giant corporations and advertising.

Nope. People in here are arguing there's more to being healthy then being skinny just like there's more to being sober then not drinking.

He's full of shit about fat not mattering (the book is basically a call against the AHA, saturated fat doesn't do anything bad, carbs are evil, etc). Of course Weight Watchers is going to exploit weight, that's how they make money.

Did they create/invent the 'problem with obesity'? I really don't think so. People wanting to get laid created the problem with obesity. They just exploited it.

Spike foams at the mouth every time he hears the lyric: "Fat bottomed girls, you make the rockin' world go round!"

Though ironically he can't resist singing along to "Big, Blonde, & Beautiful" every time he watches Hairspray.

I'm talking about Fat Bottom Girls.

Blasphemer!

Where do you draw that line for guys or for women? There are some guys who are 260 and built like football players. They might have a gut but they are well proportioned. Are they fat or just big? Same thing with women. There are some women where a few extra pounds looks damn good. A great example of this is when Renee Zellwigger took on weight for Bridget Jones Diary. To me, she looked better with 20 extra pounds than not.

Of course there comes a point when it's too much weight and it's just disgusting and unhealthy. To me that would be the point where you literally can't walk any more and need an oxygen mask and a Hoveround. To each their own....

BTW, that video was gay and those models are far from what I'd consider "fat".

It's one video.

Besides, who cares? I think people should eat healthier, but how can you honestly be upset about the small minority who try to make people feel good about themselves even if they're different from you?

That's actually one of the biggest reasons for the obesity epidemic. Everyone wants to push what counts as overweight backwards.

The fact that you're so appalled by the notion of fat people having high self-esteem astounds me. Though it is quite shocking, some people actually believe they have self worth in areas unrelated to their physical appearance. Therefore it's quite possible that they have enough confidence to not give a shit that they're overweight.

I can understand your feelings to a point -- if tons of people enjoy being fat, then the cycle of unhealthy behavior will get worse from generation to generation. But I have to ask, why do you give a fuck? I'd prefer my loved ones not be grossly obese because I want them to live long lives, but who cares about how tubby the rest of the world is? I don't see how this affects you whatsoever.

That's what I don't get. He's basically wishing for fat people to hate themselves.

That's ridiculously generous. If you can't jog a mile at the drop of a hat, you're out of shape regardless of your body weight.

Agreed completely on the first point. It's one of a million things that you should value about yourself. On the second point, I'd still hope they have enough pride in themselves to want to improve their appearance. This should be the case simply for the fact that people will always judge you on your appearance before your merit. If your appearance says "discount me", that will affect their evaluation of your merit later.

Yeah, but a lot of people won't get to that point, so what do you do? Hope they all hate themselves for the rest of their lives or hope they can somehow find a way to be overweight and happy?

You didn't get the memo? Fatties aren't allowed to be happy till they're skinny now. And even then you can use the "you used to be so fat" jokes on them, you know, to put them in their place.

You realize that fat people can be happy without being skinny right? I'm not saying fat people shouldn't try to be healthier or lose weight but being skinny is not a magic cure-all for feeling bad. It will however get you laid more, which can lead to more happiness, or AIDS.

All I'm saying is William Howard Taft was pretty rockin', even if he was too fat to get out of his bathtub.

Let's be honest though.

Yes, I'm a 'skinny' person who stays relatively lean even if I eat horribly and don't exercise (as in I don't get more than 50 pounds overweight). And yes, there are people who do everything just right and still have 50 pounds of extra fat on them.

However, for the vast majority in the middle, having more than 50 pounds of fat over your correct weight (and I don't mean BMI here, obviously you have to take into account variations in body type) is a direct result of eating too much, eating crappy/high fructose corn syrup laden foods, and/or lack of exercise.

I was, and still am, guilty of that lifestyle. I eat when I'm not hungry. I eat until I'm overfull. I skip going to the gym. I'm fortunately blessed with the kind of genetics that it isn't as visually obvious on me. But it doesn't make the lifestyle any healthier for any of us.

I'm all for believing that people of all shapes and sizes can be healthy and beautiful in their own way - whether curvy or slender, big muscles or lean. I think that healthy and active should be goal.

Sadly, we use appearance to judge that in people whose lifestyles we can't observe, so we tend to presume big = lazy and eating poorly, and small = fit.

I'm with you on the first point, but the second is just A.A. bullshit. There really isn't anymore to being sober than not drinking.

What disgusts me more is this idea that women have to show their rib cages to be accepted by society. This is WAY less healthy than being a few pounds over wieght. Take, for example, Kate Winslet. According to Hollywood, she was "fat" circa "Titanic". WTF???? If anything is more sick than fat acceptance, it's this BS where women feel they have to be emaciated to be accepted. That is sick and frankly way less attractive than a few extra pounds.

Actually, a fully sober lifestyle includes not taking narcotics, for example, or abusing other addictive substances. Using isn't limited to just one substance.

Ok, I agree with that, but I don't think that is what he was getting at. If it was, then I just read it wrong.

Nvm

I can't tell you the number of personal trainers who refuse to take fat people on as clients, and worse, make fun of them while they are at the gym - sometimes within earshot. I had a varied clientele of all shapes, sizes, and ages when I was a trainer, including a 22-year old woman who weighed well over 250 pounds. No one wanted to take her on, and I gotta say I was wary not because of her size, but because I was relatively new as a trainer at the time and wasn't sure I had the right training to be able to help her. My Floor Manager gave me some tips about which exercises and machines were better for bigger people and in particular to stay away from exercises that involved laying on the floor because big people have a hard time getting up.

Additionally, the client was wary of taking on a personal trainer because of the fear that people would make fun of her. But in the end, I'm glad she did it. Of all the clients I had, she was the most in need and ended up having the greatest results. And the self-confidence she gained after just a few sessions was tremendous. She never had been told she could do it and my pushing her allowed her to see that she could accomplish more than she thought she could.

We only worked together a few months because she couldn't afford a trainer anymore, and for awhile after I saw her coming in on her own. But I hope she stuck with. Still, no matter how hard she trains she'll never be small. But she'll certainly be healthier and as people have mentioned in this thread, that's more important than numbers on a scale.

Through several years of being a gym rat, I've found only a handful trainers that were any good and really cared about their clients.

Personally, I've extended any help I could if someone needed it, but I usually didn't go out of my way until someone asks for help. I think I've pissed off a lot of personal trainers because I gave better advice and knowledge than they would ever know, all for free.

I believe most personal trainers aren't worth shit, and if you really want to learn, grab some fitness books and a partner and start working on this stuff.

For many women (and men) the 'correct' body weight and fat level means you can see ribs.

ETA: I don't mean to say that emaciation is good; it's not. But for many people visible ribs is their healthy weight.

I tend to think trainers are there for the motivation, rather than the expertise. If you're paying through the nose for a trainer and you have an appointment, you're going to show up. That alone justifies the cost if you're prone to slacking.

I have to say though, most of my experience with trainers (through befriending them, not using them) has been pretty positive with regard to their skills.

The point that Harding is trying to make (though she flubs it through some poorly thought-out support) is that we shouldn't be doing this. This thread, especially in the first half and in Spike's continued comments, suggests that fat people have flawed eating habits and should be shamed into changing them. The truth is that fat people sometimes have flawed eating habits. A larger body can often be indicative of poor health.

But it's not always the case, and people seldom, if ever, make the distinction.

If we really wanted to look out for others, we'd be advocating healthier eating habits for everyone, not just people who manifest it via increased body mass. As I mentioned before, check out the amazing enthusiasm with which some people here approached the fast food thread and how frequent they seemed to order from those places. I suspect that not all of the participants were fat, but most of the true enthusiasts were pretty unhealthy, nonetheless.

This whole discussion has a lot more to do with aesthetics than some would care to admit and not genuine benevolence. Basically, people are offended by fat bodies because they deviate too greatly from society's beauty standards, and they seek to punish them for this infraction. It matters little whether they sit on the couch and eat Cheetos all day or exercise more than you and eat healthier food than you if the end result is still fat.

Ya think?

This being the internet, never under estimate people for taking things way too literally.

This thread has just inspired me to jump over to the "Chewer Vision" thread

Sorry, that was my bad.

That's pretty much what I was getting at. It's the dropping of all addictive habits. No cigs, no coke, no heroin etc.

I can see my ribs no matter my weight because my fat tends to be carried in my stomach area.

Basically you can't judge health solely on aesthetics.

I know a girl who is nearly 300 pounds, and says she's getting a gastric bypass. Or stomach staple. Or are those the same thing? Keep in mind, she's 20. She's the prime example of the bad kind of fat person, the one who complains about none of their clothes fitting anymore while buying five pints of Ben and Jerry's, and who's motto is to simply find the easy way out (i.e. having an operation as stated above.)
Now, I'm no slim chicken myself, but by god I'm trying: haven't eaten chips or drank any soda in months, gone swing dancing, eat vegetables and meat for dinner, etc., etc....little changes in lifestyle can make such a difference. The problem with some people is that they simply go "meh". I will say though, while I haven't lost MUCH weight, my cholesterol count is waaaay down thanks to laying off the junk food. So I guess I'd say I'm a little fat, but not as unhealthy as I once was, if that makes sense. Just because you eat a bunch of junk food and don't get fat isn't any cause to celebrate; I bet you you're blood is having a lot of trouble moving.

I eat shit, rarely exercise and am one of the least healthy people I know. But I have a fast metabolism (for now, anyway) so I'm skinny. Am I a disgusting person?

Shit has no nutritional value.

Maybe not empirically, but to fat people you're the Antichrist.

Seriously though, some people just have that genetic luck of the draw. Some such people tend to hate on the ones who do gain weight, and think they must be exceedingly lazy, just because they never had to worry about it.

But I'm one of their biggest* fans!

*Too easy. Don't even bother.