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Burma: Thousands dead

post #1 of 53
10/1/07 at 11:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Burma: Thousands dead in massacre of the monks dumped in the jungle
By MARCUS OSCARSSON - More by this author » Last updated at 15:04pm on 1st October 2007

Comments Comments (69)
Thousands of protesters are dead and the bodies of hundreds of executed monks have been dumped in the jungle, a former intelligence officer for Burma's ruling junta has revealed.

The most senior official to defect so far, Hla Win, said: "Many more people have been killed in recent days than you've heard about. The bodies can be counted in several thousand."

Mr Win, who spoke out as a Swedish diplomat predicted that the revolt has failed, said he fled when he was ordered to take part in a massacre of holy men. He has now reached the border with Thailand.
Read the whole article here Warning: horrific photos.

Also, you had to know there's an oil connection to the military junta.
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post #2 of 53
10/1/07 at 11:24am
You don't know any of those people, how does this possibly affect you?
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post #3 of 53
10/1/07 at 11:28am
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Richard Dickson again."
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post #4 of 53
10/1/07 at 11:36am
The whole situation is really tragic and plain awful. I hope the world of cinema can shed light on what's going on in Burma and call attention to the horror that's taking place. If only there was a filmmaker out there with the guts to take on this topic. Is there any director bold enough to tackle this issue?
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post #5 of 53
10/1/07 at 11:37am
Ew, the real world. Back to Halo 3!
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post #6 of 53
10/1/07 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moltisanti
The whole situation is really tragic and plain awful. I hope the world of cinema can shed light on what's going on in Burma and call attention to the horror that's taking place. If only there was a filmmaker out there with the guts to take on this topic. Is there any director bold enough to tackle this issue?
Shh, Ed Zwick can hear you.
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post #7 of 53
10/1/07 at 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moltisanti
The whole situation is really tragic and plain awful. I hope the world of cinema can shed light on what's going on in Burma and call attention to the horror that's taking place. If only there was a filmmaker out there with the guts to take on this topic. Is there any director bold enough to tackle this issue?
One could say that's a sly post you got up there.
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post #8 of 53
10/1/07 at 11:46am
With all of the shitty threads and posts around here it's funny that this is the one where people want to point out that this is a movie site.

It is in a Political Discourse forum. If you don't like it stay in the Sports area.
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post #9 of 53
10/1/07 at 11:47am
I thought Sly was tackling the issue in John Rambo? then again, I haven't heard any news about Rambo in almost a year...
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post #10 of 53
10/1/07 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay f
With all of the shitty threads and post around here it's funny that this is the one where people want to point out that this is a movie site.

It is in a Political Discourse forum. If you don't like it stay in the Sports area.
See here to understand what's going on. Devin's posts, in particular.
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post #11 of 53
10/1/07 at 11:53am
A little levity in the face of something horrible is not unheard of.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm reprinting the story in the newspaper I work for. Does this make it okay to joke about Rambo? Fuck if I know.
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post #12 of 53
10/1/07 at 12:00pm
Didn't the Beastie Boys already have a concert about this?

In all seriousness, yet another example of how the UN can't or won't do dick.
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post #13 of 53
10/1/07 at 12:02pm
I've never been to Burma, am I allowed to comment on this story?
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post #14 of 53
10/1/07 at 12:04pm
I don't think it's a good idea to vilify the UN for Burma. It is very difficult to interfere inside a country. I think the UN's main role should be that of a mediator in international, rather than national disputes.
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post #15 of 53
10/1/07 at 12:20pm
Oh wow, turns out John Rambo is going to be quite topical after all.
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post #16 of 53
10/1/07 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson
See here to understand what's going on. Devin's posts, in particular.
Ok...nothing to see here. Move along. Hey! Isn't that Micheal Vick over there raping a Burmese pitbull.
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post #17 of 53
10/1/07 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
I've never been to Burma, am I allowed to comment on this story?
Even if you had been to Burma, there are dozens of other countries you could have visited, you Burma-centric cretin.
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post #18 of 53
10/1/07 at 1:07pm
This isn't going to bode well for their shaving cream industry.
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post #19 of 53
10/1/07 at 1:10pm
Imagine the international support being generated if there was oil in Burma.
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post #20 of 53
10/1/07 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastronikolas
I don't think it's a good idea to vilify the UN for Burma. It is very difficult to interfere inside a country. I think the UN's main role should be that of a mediator in international, rather than national disputes.
So should the international community ignore the slaughter of thousands of peaceful protesters and do nothing? Oh, and the international community shouldn't get involved in the genocide in Sudan, since that's internal, too. And hey, just because your neighbor beats his wife and rapes his kids, it's his household, you shouldn't get involved or report it to the police, because they shouldn't interfere with something going on inside a household as long as it doesn't involve any of his neighbors.
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post #21 of 53
10/1/07 at 2:02pm
No, that's not what I was trying to say, although I can see why you'd think so.

The UN should interfere. Unfortunately it has limited capabilities to do so in an internal conflict.
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post #22 of 53
10/1/07 at 2:07pm
I predict SUDDEN PEACE in Burma about 10 days before the release of John Rambo.
The Rambo III jinx!
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post #23 of 53
10/1/07 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belethedheliel
So should the international community ignore the slaughter of thousands of peaceful protesters and do nothing? Oh, and the international community shouldn't get involved in the genocide in Sudan, since that's internal, too. And hey, just because your neighbor beats his wife and rapes his kids, it's his household, you shouldn't get involved or report it to the police, because they shouldn't interfere with something going on inside a household as long as it doesn't involve any of his neighbors.
And [Hitler] was a mass-murdering fuckhead, as many important historians have said.

But there were other mass murderers that got away with it! Stalin killed many millions, died in his bed, well done there; Pol Pot killed 1.7 million Cambodians, died under house arrest at age 72, well done indeed!

And the reason we let them get away with it is because they killed their own people, and we're sort of fine with that. “Ah, help yourself,” you know? “We've been trying to kill you for ages!” So kill your own people, right on there.

Seems to be… Hitler killed people next door... “Oh… stupid man!” After a couple of years, we won't stand for that, will we? -- Eddie Izzard
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post #24 of 53
10/1/07 at 2:13pm
I was talking to some co-workers about this, and they asked me where Burma is... most thought it was in Africa.
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post #25 of 53
10/1/07 at 2:34pm
Thread Starter 
I just read that other thread and I have to say, for once I agree with Devin. I don't read or watch regular news and I don't consider those kinds of stories real news. They're like conscience porn - stories in which it's easy to draw conclusions that you, watching the news story, are better than the horrible people described in the news story without you (meaning the general "you" not people necessarily reading this, if anyone is) having to do any real complex thinking on the issue or with any constructive road toward helping to do something about it. And there is a prurient factor to stories like this involving victimized children, a la JonBenet. There is never any examination of the complexities that go into the victimization of children here and around the world, no attempt to address the complete inability of our criminal justice system to deal with sexual abuse of children, and a totally diametrically opposed message in the corporate entertainment, media and retail environments to sexualize children "because it sells."

That said, the situation in Burma appears to be similar to the US's "look the other way" tendencies which prevailed with Nazi German prior to our engagement in WWII. As long as their checks clear or their products (i.e. oil) are cheap, their brutality is immaterial.
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post #26 of 53
10/1/07 at 2:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moltisanti
The whole situation is really tragic and plain awful. I hope the world of cinema can shed light on what's going on in Burma and call attention to the horror that's taking place. If only there was a filmmaker out there with the guts to take on this topic. Is there any director bold enough to tackle this issue?
Evidently the bloggers who can be credited with getting a lot of the news and imagery out about this massacre are being hunted down by junta soldiers.
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post #27 of 53
10/1/07 at 2:41pm
I've been reading that as well. Some of the artists who are trying to let the world know what's going on have been receiving death threats.
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post #28 of 53
10/1/07 at 3:23pm
"The most important thing is you provide entertainment, but you also put a light on this savage existence that the people in Burma have to live.”
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post #29 of 53
10/1/07 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt
That said, the situation in Burma appears to be similar to the US's "look the other way" tendencies which prevailed with Nazi German prior to our engagement in WWII. As long as their checks clear or their products (i.e. oil) are cheap, their brutality is immaterial.
I'd have to disagree a little with that. The USA is one of the few countries actually sactioning Myanmar and pushing for change there, as we have been for a while now.
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post #30 of 53
10/1/07 at 4:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belethedheliel
I'd have to disagree a little with that. The USA is one of the few countries actually sactioning Myanmar and pushing for change there, as we have been for a while now.
Yes, but...
Quote:
Despite economic sanctions against Burma by the United States and the European Union, Total continues to operate the Yadana gas field, and Chevron Corp has a 28 percent stake through its takeover of Unocal. Existing investments were exempt from the investment ban.

Both Total and Chevron broadly defended their business in the nation.

"Far from solving Myanmar's problems, a forced withdrawal would only lead to our replacement by other operators probably less committed to the ethical principles guiding all our initiatives," Jean-Francois Lassalle, vice president of public affairs for Total Exploration & Production, said this week in a statement.

French President Nicholas Sarkozy urged Total this week to refrain from new investment in Burma; the French concern said it had not made any capital expenditure there since 1998.

Chevron's interest in the Yadana project is "a long-term commitment that helps meet the critical energy needs of millions in people in the region," said Nicole Hodgson, corporate media adviser for Asia.

Total and former partner Unocal Corp were accused of cooperating with the military in human rights violations while a pipeline was being built across Burma to Thailand in the 1990s. Both companies have denied the accusations but Unocal settled a related lawsuit in the US in 2005, prior to being acquired by Chevron.
link
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post #31 of 53
10/1/07 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt
Also, you had to know there's an oil connection to the military junta.
The New York Times makes a similar point, but focuses more on the Thai connection.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/wo...hp&oref=slogin

Like the question of China and Indian interest, this really shows that, without truly enormous resources, Burma still manages to be an important regional player in the energy market. In fact, since the US has already been applying sanctions, it makes the regional scene more important. Unfortunately, I think that it also means that the Burmese government is going to have time to run up the body count before anything else can be done. By the time China or somebody else (maybe Japan? A lot of indignation there about the murdered Japanese photographer) decides step in, the government will have killed a tremendous number of people involved in the opposition. Eventually they'll probably comply but they'll have accomplished what they set out to do.
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post #32 of 53
10/1/07 at 5:06pm
Sorry to break it to the whiny fucks in this thread, but the quelching of democracy and massacre of dissident factions ANYWHERE is more newsworthy and more significant than one abused child.
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post #33 of 53
10/1/07 at 5:17pm
Has anyone said otherwise? I don't remember saying I find one raped little girl to be a more important news story than what's happening in Burma. I'm just defending the right to discuss a myriad of different news stories on a message board devoted to more than one subject.
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post #34 of 53
10/1/07 at 5:22pm
Thread Starter 
There is a petition calling on China and the UN to step in.

Quote:
Burma is ruled by one of the worst military dictatorships in the world. This week Buddhist monks and nuns began marching and chanting prayers to call for democracy. The protests spread and hundreds of thousands of Burmese people joined in -- they've been brutally attacked by the military regime, but still the protests are spreading.

I just signed a petition calling on Burma's powerful ally China and the UN security council to step in and pressure Burma's rulers to stop the killing. The petition has exploded to over 200,000 signatures in a few days and is being advertised in newspapers around the world, delivered to the UN secretary general, and broadcast to the Burmese people by radio. We're trying to get to 1 million signatures this week, please sign below and tell everyone!

http://www.avaaz.org/en/stand_with_b...CLICK_TF_TRACK

Thank you for your help!
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post #35 of 53
10/1/07 at 7:05pm
Rambo was there! But he didn't do anything...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071001/...SK5UxVJ81xFb8C

Quote:
Stallone and crew saw Myanmar aftermath

By JEFF WILSON, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 8 minutes ago

LOS ANGELES - Sylvester Stallone says he and his "Rambo" sequel movie crew recently witnessed the human toll of unspeakable atrocities while filming along the Myanmar border.

"I witnessed the aftermath — survivors with legs cut off and all kinds of land-mine injuries, maggot-infested wounds and ears cut off," Stallone told The Associated Press in a phone interview Monday. "We hear about Vietnam and Cambodia and this was more horrific."

The 61-year-old actor-director returned to the U.S. eight days ago from shooting "John Rambo," the fourth movie in the action series, on the Salween River separating Thailand and Myanmar, formerly known as Burma.

Stallone said he was in Thailand for six months, most of it along or on the river.

"This is a hellhole beyond your wildest dreams," Stallone said. "All the trails are mined. The only way into Burma is up the river."

This was before the crackdown last week against the largest pro-democracy protests in Myanmar in two decades. After the government increased fuel prices in August, public anger turned to mass protest against 45 years of military dictatorship. Last week, soldiers responded by opening fire with automatic weapons on unarmed demonstrators.

For decades, Myanmar's army has waged a brutal war against ethnic groups in which soldiers have razed villages, raped women and killed innocent civilians.

The "Rambo" script, written long before the present Myanmar uprising, features boatman John Rambo — the Vietnam War-era Green Beret who specializes in violent rescues and revenge — taking a group of mercenaries up the Salween River in search of missing Christian aid workers in Myanmar. The character "realizes man is just a few paces away from savagery when pushed."

"I called Soldier of Fortune magazine and they said Burma was the foremost area of human abuse on the planet," Stallone said.

Shots were fired over the film crew's head, he said. "We were told we could get seriously hurt if we went on."

"I was being accused, once again, of using the Third World as a `Rambo' victim. The Burmese are beautiful people. It's the military I am portraying as cruel," he said.

Stallone is now editing "John Rambo," which will be released in January. He wants the Motion Picture Association of America will give the film an "r" rating.
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post #36 of 53
10/1/07 at 7:21pm
When your pushed, killin's as easy as breathing.

Wait, what were we talking about?
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post #37 of 53
10/1/07 at 8:05pm
You may know it as Myanmar, but it will always be Burma to me.
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post #38 of 53
10/1/07 at 8:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeShaynePI
You may know it as Myanmar, but it will always be Burma to me.
Are you channeling Billy Joel? "You can call it Myanmar, but it's always just Burma, to me."
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post #39 of 53
10/1/07 at 8:20pm
"We didn't start Myanmar, it was always Burma since the world's been turnin'...."
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post #40 of 53
10/1/07 at 8:57pm
I always wonder when this crazy shit happens,whether or not the people doing the killing realize that they are murders and monsters?Do the soldiers sit around and congratulate each other on the number of 3 year olds they strangled that day or do they sit in their barracks and feel like the pieces of shit they are?
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post #41 of 53
10/1/07 at 9:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumteldat
I always wonder when this crazy shit happens,whether or not the people doing the killing realize that they are murders and monsters?Do the soldiers sit around and congratulate each other on the number of 3 year olds they strangled that day or do they sit in their barracks and feel like the pieces of shit they are?
It depends on their perception of the "enemy". A lot of times, they're not women and children, they're simply animals that must be culled.
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post #42 of 53
10/1/07 at 9:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord
Are you channeling Billy Joel? "You can call it Myanmar, but it's always just Burma, to me."
No, I'm actually quoting the only white poet warlord in the neighborhood.

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post #43 of 53
10/1/07 at 9:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt
There is a petition calling on China and the UN to step in.
Oh, I'm sure China will totally stick their neck out for some monks.

Fuckers are probably taking notes on what to/what not to do in future massacres of civilians.
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post #44 of 53
10/1/07 at 9:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werbal_Kint
Sorry to break it to the whiny fucks in this thread, but the quelching of democracy and massacre of dissident factions ANYWHERE is more newsworthy and more significant than one abused child.
The Burmese massacres certainly affect more people than a single missing child incident, but our respective discussions are equally futile. People in the other thread didn't like being told that discussion was less important than this one.

Importance of Issues: Burma > Single case of child abuse

Importance of discussion on CHUD: Burma = Single case of child abuse
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post #45 of 53
10/1/07 at 11:00pm
I wouldn't say that.There's the old addage " Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it."

This is history happening in front of you, and it serves as a lesson about how cruel and distant from the wants and needs of it's people a government can get, which makes it something people should take some level of heed from.
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post #46 of 53
10/1/07 at 11:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson
"We didn't start Myanmar, it was always Burma since the world's been turnin'...."
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Richard Dickson again.
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post #47 of 53
10/2/07 at 12:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by horrid
I wouldn't say that.There's the old addage " Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it."

This is history happening in front of you, and it serves as a lesson about how cruel and distant from the wants and needs of it's people a government can get, which makes it something people should take some level of heed from.

Granted, but I don't see the entire message board screeching to a halt and everyone concentrating on this single thread until this situation is resolved . I see the gossip thread is still going strong. The same as the other forums. The point is that we are all capable of keeping up to date on a multitude of news stories. Some far more important than others as this story most definitely is. Just because we comment on a less important story doesn't mean we aren't keeping track of the major events happening in the world.

This thread was started today by YT. Why wasn't it started earlier? Did no one have anything to say about this on Thursday and Friday when the troops actually began opening fire?
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post #48 of 53
10/2/07 at 12:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibitron
This thread was started today by YT. Why wasn't it started earlier? Did no one have anything to say about this on Thursday and Friday when the troops actually began opening fire?

Because everyone was too busy talking about that rape kid?



Nah, not really.



I'm all for people talking about whatever they want, it doesn't bug me in the slightest. Although it would be nice if the Devin vs Child abuse debate was kept to one thread, it's getting to be like trying to follow a comic book arc through several different titles in here.
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post #49 of 53
10/2/07 at 12:51am
Agreed. I'll cease mentioning any further.
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post #50 of 53
10/2/07 at 4:17am
The official count is still something like 13...but that's coming from the junta. The DVB (Democratic Voice in Burma) puts the number at 138.

The Daily Mail, while a tabloid, is claiming to be getting this info from a Colonel Hla Win, who supposedly defected recently. So, maybe it's legit...
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