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Machine Guns in Video Games: Why the gimping?

post #1 of 38
Thread Starter 
Machine guns are pretty effective in real life, as far as I can tell. Probably an order of magnitude more effective at dealing damage than a pistol of the equivalent caliber. While recently playing Halo 3, however, I was again reminded of the continuously ridiculous underpowering of automatic weaponry. If they make the game too easy, reduce the available ammo! Nothing is more maddening than unloading clip after clip into someone, only to realize that you're apparently firing papier mache bullets. If it takes one hundred rounds to kill a giant enemy crab with an MP5, it should take 100 rounds to kill it with a 9mm Glock.

The three worst offenders I can think of amongst notable/quality games:

3)The original Halo: Three headshots with the pistol equals death, but you can unload a clip into the torso of enemy soldiers and watch them shrug it off. I didn't, and don't, particularly enjoy the "reload dance" that is required whenever I don't manage to kill an opponent at close range with the default machine gun. The problem has been somewhat eliminated in the most recent entry-- not by improving the machine gun, but by making the pistol worthless.

2)Gears of War: I gave up on Gears of War multiplayer for one simple reason -- the preposterously underpowered machine gun. You basically have to abandon the machine gun for the shotgun in multiplayer, and the "dodge and blast" strategy required for that particularly weapon takes away what could have been a fantastic tactical experience. It's not fun unloading a clip at point blank range and watching an opponent approach and kill you with one blast. Fenix looks muscular enough to carry some real ammo, damnit!

1)Far Cry (on the Xbox/Xbox 360): Far Cry takes this problem to a whole new level. I tested this out in co-op mode. Two or three shots of a Desert Eagle to the head will kill you. About four or five from a silenced (!!!) 9mm will also do the trick. How much machine gun fire can you absorb? From the regular machine gun, at least a full clip. Even if you're dual wielding, forget it. The biggest noob mistake is thinking that the machine gun is worth a crap. I can't count the number of times some moron with the default machine gun would charge and "light me up" thinking I was stuck with a dinky silenced pistol. This quickly would turn to howls of incredulous anger as I would pop them a few times in the head. Experienced players would immediately run to the nearest pistol spawn point and avoid combat given how impossible it was to kill anyone with the default automatic weapon. Ridiculous.


Who got it right (more or less): The Call of Duty series seems to have the best pistol/machine gun balance out there. Meaning that the pistol completely sucks.
post #2 of 38
There was a great modern-warfare game a few years back that got pretty much ALL the weapons right, i.e., just a couple of hits and you were DOWN. Can't recall the title right now, but it made firefights and confrontations real nail-biting experiences.
post #3 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer
There was a great modern-warfare game a few years back that got pretty much ALL the weapons right, i.e., just a couple of hits and you were DOWN. Can't recall the title right now, but it made firefights and confrontations real nail-biting experiences.

Sounds like Rainbow Six, another title that actually did a pretty good job with the weapons.
post #4 of 38
The multiplayer game that the US Army sponsored was probably the most real-world accurate I've played. If you got hit, you were dead. Didn't really matter what with.

Granted, that made it infuriating, as you would get shot, respawn, get no where, get shot, respawn....
post #5 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer
There was a great modern-warfare game a few years back that got pretty much ALL the weapons right, i.e., just a couple of hits and you were DOWN. Can't recall the title right now, but it made firefights and confrontations real nail-biting experiences.
Operation Flashpoint?
post #6 of 38
That's the one.

I remember that if you got separated from your unit, or were behind enemy lines, you NEVER tried to take on more than one enemy at a time. You really had to plan your route, look for cover, and move slowly.
post #7 of 38
Haven't played the Rainbow Six games in a long time since Rogue Spear. I remember that was pretty realistic, i.e., sans armour a single round to a major party part would take you down.
post #8 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mith
The multiplayer game that the US Army sponsored was probably the most real-world accurate I've played. If you got hit, you were dead. Didn't really matter what with.

Granted, that made it infuriating, as you would get shot, respawn, get no where, get shot, respawn....
I actually don't mind if a game decides to inexplicably make my avatar a super-human bullet absorber -- I just get annoyed when the only weapon they wimp-ify is the machine gun. If a clip from a machine gun won't kill me, neither should one blast from a sawed off.
post #9 of 38
Ha, funny and it's true for just about every game. I think it's just difficult to balance because there's so much, well, shooting in an FPS. Developers don't want the pistol to be the primary weapon because you're just not shooting often enough. But if they realistically balance the machine gun the game will be way too easy. So they make the machine gun the most common but weakest ammo type per-bullet.

You know, Overlord, you could probably get some Digg links for a Shitty Machine Guns Throughout Videogame History page . "And next we have the Klobb..."
post #10 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Count Floyd
You know, Overlord, you could probably get some Digg links for a Shitty Machine Guns Throughout Videogame History page . "And next we have the Klobb..."
You could write an entire article on Goldeneye's machine guns/rubber-band flingers.
post #11 of 38
Overlord, why don't you just join the marines and go kill some Afghanis?
post #12 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord
You could write an entire article on Goldeneye's machine guns/rubber-band flingers.
I was thinking that, if there was a fantasy league for "shitty video game weapons," that thing would be the A-Rod of the draft.
post #13 of 38
Am I misremembering Counter-Strike? I don't remember it being anywhere near as awful in this regard.
post #14 of 38
Why the gimping? Cause they're for pussies. Everyone knows the shotgun's a real man's weapon.
post #15 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guttenberg Fan Club
Overlord, why don't you just join the marines and go kill some Afghanis?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&o...quitur&defl=en

My disdain for video game mishandling of automatic weaponry has not yet inspired me to abandon my legal career and enlist. We'll see what Gears of War 2 puts on the table, as that may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Or, perhaps that was a feeble attempt at facetious wit.
post #16 of 38
It's not a non-sequitur , Overlord. You just have this really weird relationship with video games that requires a level of realism that you're only going to receive by actually picking up a rifle and killing people. That way your graphics and 'realistic weaponry' concerns will disappear.

Why don't machine guns do damage? Because it's a video game and the designers want you to have fun using rapid-fire or explosive weaponry, but also want to present a challenge to the proceedings. FPS gaming is built upon 'mini-games' rather than realism. Head shots are key, so a shot to the head has much more power than a shot to the torso, regardless of weapon used. Making machine gun shots to the torso worth as much as a pistol to the face makes the game exponentially easier (the mini-game is the idea of the person who gets more head-shots will be better at the game).
post #17 of 38
I'll take any gimpy machine gun they want to put it, as long as they leave out the friggin space age bullshit. Nothing is more boring to me than running around in laser shield armor, firing green blobs of light and yellow laser beams at people with my quad damage power up.. I'd rather get into one of those cardboard tube fights at Christmas when the wrapping paper runs dry..

And yeah, I play halo 3, often. But I never enjoy using the alien BS. Shotgun and Dual Pistols was my bread and butter in the early levels, swap pistols for the battle rifle later on. Semper Fi, alien bitches!
post #18 of 38
The SOLDIER OF FORTUNE games had great weaponry balancing and body part specific damage points...I love those games.
post #19 of 38
What I don't get is how I can unload a magazine and a half into a dude in Halo 3 and he won't go down yet he can shoot me four times and I collapse. Is it because I'm shooting for center mass instead of the BOOM! Headshot?
post #20 of 38
Though it's not really in the same league, the Thompson in Resident Evil 4 is super powerful. There's another machine gun that's completely worthless, though, so it kind of plays both sides.
post #21 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravedigger
What I don't get is how I can unload a magazine and a half into a dude in Halo 3 and he won't go down yet he can shoot me four times and I collapse. Is it because I'm shooting for center mass instead of the BOOM! Headshot?
I'm guessing that's the case. Aiming for the head: not a good strategy in the real world, but a must for Halo 3 encounters.
post #22 of 38
I agree, Gears of War is the most egregious example. Multiplayer is completely ruined by this. It sucks unloading a clip into a guy while he destroys you with one shotgun blast
post #23 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Straight Edge
I agree, Gears of War is the most egregious example. Multiplayer is completely ruined by this. It sucks unloading a clip into a guy while he destroys you with one shotgun blast
You apparently have a weird relationship with video games that can only be satisfied by shooting Afghanis. Not just anyone, mind you, only Afghanis will do.
post #24 of 38
Only Afghanis will do because Blackwater is taking care of all the Iraqis.
post #25 of 38
More realistic aiming would "help," in other words make it much harder to hit anything when spraying automatic fire, but how much fun is that?
post #26 of 38
It's a theme in your particular video game complaints, Overlord.

And joining the Marines doesn't mean you can kill anyone you want, genius. It has to be people we're actually fighting.
post #27 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravedigger
Only Afghanis will do because Blackwater is taking care of all the Iraqis.
Good point.

Quote:
More realistic aiming would "help," in other words make it much harder to hit anything when spraying automatic fire, but how much fun is that?
It worked okay for Call of Duty 2 and Rainbow Six Vegas. Just depends on the game. If you're playing as a cybernetic killing machine, being able to aim accurately at a dead run is probably a standard feature.
post #28 of 38
I've noticed this trend too. Caused a lot of cursing during GoldenEye.
post #29 of 38
And why the hell was the BFG10K in Quake II so much less powerful than the BFG9000 from Doom? It's a thousand more.
post #30 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guttenberg Fan Club
Overlord, why don't you just join the marines and go kill some Afghanis?
Finally, a fresh thought!

Keep up the good work, protege!
post #31 of 38
Overlord if you haven't already played the COD4 demo,do.If you shoot a man in the chest with a rifle, that motherfucker goes down.
post #32 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumteldat
Overlord if you haven't already played the COD4 demo,do.If you shoot a man in the chest with a rifle, that motherfucker goes down.
But, will he be an Afghani?
post #33 of 38
Yep, Operation Flashpoint is what you want. One well placed shot from any weapon can kill an enemy in this lovely game, and if you run too much you'll run out of breath and your aim gets erratic. So many small details, the game is still the best 'war' themed PC game out there in my opinion. I've yet to play the unofficial sequel Armed Assault, but it looks good too.
post #34 of 38
Black is the worst offender. It took a ridiculous amount of rounds to take one guy down. I agree with GFC in the second paragraph in post #16 but Criterion was pushing it.

The ones in Medal Of Honor: Airborne do a nice amount of damage.
post #35 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord
But, will he be an Afghani?
As long as one brown person looks the same as another brown person to you,yeah, sure, why not.He's an Afghani.
post #36 of 38
In Halo and Gears of War, which are all sci-fi future shit, do you really want the machine gun to be as powerful as your quantum laser rectum tunneler gun?

Machine guns have always been the gimp weapon, unless it's a specific "real-world" setting. And even then it's iffy.
post #37 of 38
I've been replaying HalfLife 2 lately, and I've noticed you can empty a good number of rounds from a machine gun into someone and they'll keep coming, but the Magnum drops in one or two shots.
post #38 of 38
Because it's the fucking Magnum. If you manage to HIT people with it, you deserve to see them dropped.

And the standard SMG in HL2 is pretty efficient, so long as you're not trying to be a doofus and use it at long range.
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