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Why I can't stand ROCKY IV

post #1 of 83
Thread Starter 
Rather than continue to pollute the Rocky Training Montage thread with my bile, I thought I'd give it its own bucket. There's just so much of it to contain.

I don't get the love. I really, really don't. When I saw this film on its original theatrical run, the audience reactions actually disturbed me. I could almost understand it at the time, as we were being force-fed the Reagan-approved diet of "Boo, Russia, Boo" night and day. But I thought that we as a culture would be smart enough to get over it. I guess not.

I am a huge fan of Rocky. The first film is in my All-Time Top 40. Were I forced to make a top 10, it might be in there. I love it that much, and consequently, I have some degree of fondness for all the Rocky films (even the lamentable Rocky V), except for this one. The Rocky films, at their best, celebrate the common man. They're about the everyday triumph of being a good, decent person in a world that offers few opportunities for triumph. This film isn't interested in any of that.

So, with no further delay, my points:

It's politically boneheaded
I was already sick to death of the "Russians are just plain evil" philosophy by the time this filth came out (did we learn nothing from Sting?). The idea that Russia was full of people who don't value human life was a popular one at the time. It's bad enough that Stallone swallowed this right-wing jingoistic kneejerk bullshit, but I was very disappointed in him for his decision to use his greatest creation to regurgitate it and feed it back to us. I cannot over-stress how sick and moronic I find this to be. The fact that anyone can still watch this movie and stomach its political attitude blows my mind.

It's a Bugs Bunny cartoon
The previous films, though they had given in to the temptation to increase the odds and go over the top in lionizing their hero, still took place in something that was at least on speaking terms with The Real World. Rocky IV doesn't seem to take place in that universe. As near as I can tell, it's a sequel to Death Race 2000 in which Machine Gun Joe Viterbo has risen from the dead, turned to the light, and taken up boxing. Its vision of good and evil is completely untrue to the world of the first three films. Apollo Creed and Clubber Lange, extreme though they were, still came across as human beings. Ivan Drago is a vision of evil on the order of Ming the Merciless. He should be dropping Rocky in a gladiatorial pit with Beast Men and a dragon with can openers for hands.

It's not about Rocky Balboa
The previous films were about Rocky Balboa, human being; a guy who either has to overcome everyone's rock-bottom expectations of what he's capable of, or has lost something that he needs to recapture. Those are universal motivations that just about everybody can relate to. Unfortunately, Rocky Balboa isn't in this movie. Sylvester Stallone is playing a character called AMERICA, a down-to-earth, hardworking man's man who does the right thing because somebody has to, by golly. His opponent is RUSSIA, an evil, sadistic bastard nurtured by machines, unburdened by human emotion, with no concern for the sanctity of human life. This is a Star Trek villain, not a Rocky opponent. Not once in this film did I recognize Stallone's character as the basic, decent guy I'd followed through three previous films. He's a paragon of virtue, a shining hero, a warrior fighting for all that is good and right in the world. And he's boring as hell. He has nothing to overcome except the physical challenge of beating up Darth Vader in shorts. And if he doesn't have to overcome anything in himself, why should I give a shit about him?

None of this even gets into the quality of the writing, which is Sophomore year Creative Writing level. You killed my best friend I will kill you. Wow, that's something we can all relate to.

Look, the Rocky films were never about intelligence or subtlety. But this thing makes John Wayne's World War II films look like My Dinner With Andre. At least people who like Armageddon can expect to be rightly ridiculed. But for some reason, this tower of crap seems to get a free pass. It confuses me.
post #2 of 83
The most I can say about Rocky IV is that from what little I've seen of it (just the last fight), you sound right on the money with your points against the movie.

The only two Rocky movies I've seen in full are Rocky and Rocky Balboa. I'm not sure what I'd think of the superhero comic that is Rocky IV since all I've seen of the Rocky Balboa character have been the more low-key entires.

I think people who like IV are probably aware of everything you mention, but choose to ignore it because they enjoy the movie so much and is linked positively to a loved franchise (though that doesn't account for the general dislike of Rocky V).
post #3 of 83
I'd rep you for that if I could, Greg. You absolutely nailed it.

I remember seeing this film opening weekend and hearing people in the audience screaming "Kill that fucking Russian!" And it wasn't in a "Look at me, I'm being a jerk" kind of way, these people meant it.
post #4 of 83
Oh God, I pretty much love it for all the reasons you mentioned. I love how Rocky gets a standing ovation in friggin' Moscow because perhaps... Amerikanjev is right? Embras Kaptalism?

Also, Paulie has a robot.

Honestly, all these things are awful and I love the film because of them, not despite them. I was a baby during the last years of the Cold War, so its block-headed anti-socialism strikes me as more quaint than anything else. Have there been stupid propaganda movies vs. TURRISTS in the past few years? None come to mind. Perhaps I'd be annoyed with those if they reflected the current administration's position because I'm actually aware of it, as opposed to this film's Reagan-era shenanigans.
post #5 of 83
I think that how you view Rocky IV is directly associated with how much you love the original. In both the original and in Rocky Balboa you can feel Stallone giving his heart making the movie. IV was an artificial piece of crap that like Invasion USA can only be appreciated as unintentional comedy. The Rocky movies would have been thought of much more highly if it wasn't for the steeply declining quality of the middle ones.
post #6 of 83
While I don't dislike Rocky IV, I had my fair share or problems with it. My biggest problem was Ivan Drago for the exact reasons you mentioned. He's not a human being, he's not interesting. That scene where Drago is training on that pressure machine, and the guy says "whatever he hits, he destroys!" about sums up how ridiculous a villain he was.

As for the politics, I think it's more like the Olympics. People viciously wanted to beat the Russians in everything back in the 80's. The Russians weren't coming to take over the country as a result of the fight, they just wanted to beat America's best (though it has been a LONG time since I've seen it, so I may be hazy on this).
post #7 of 83
What's really bad about Drago is the last-minute attempt to give him some kind of character beyond a Rockski Sockski Robot when he yells up at the officials about how "I fight for me!" Ah, good, so at least when you said "If he dies, he dies," you were casually dismissing the possibility of Apollo's death for your own reasons and not for Soviet propaganda.
post #8 of 83
Not a single thing to argue about your thesis Greg.
Though this movie contains one really funny case of forshadowing, namely Gorbatshow beeing the one member of the polit committee that stands up to aplaud the victory of Rocky over Drago. I always found that remarkable.
post #9 of 83
Greg David, I disagree with everything you say on Rocky IV. It is a great film with Rocky knocking out the communist challenger close to the time our greatest modern day President Ronald Reagan ended the cold war. Rocky was promoted as an American Hero, and he earned it in Rocky IV.
post #10 of 83
I think "because it's Rocky IV" is reason enough, really.
post #11 of 83
I'm with Luca on this one. All of Greg's points are valid, but that's why I love the movie -- it's just so over-the-top and preposterous. It's unquestionably the worst of the Rocky films (assuming Rocky V doesn't exist, which I do), but, God, I love it anyway.
post #12 of 83
I'm with you, Greg. Rocky IV is well-nigh unwatchable, and this is coming from a guy who volunteered on the Reagan campaign. The music, the characterization, the antiseptic boredom of it all - it's horrible. Rocky V may be a misfire, but it least it was about characters. This was about, I dunno, Stallone's desire to nail Brigitte Nielsen. What a waste.
post #13 of 83
Greg, after reading your first post, I can only conclude that you're commie scum. Why do you hate America so much?
post #14 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke fleed
Greg David, I disagree with everything you say on Rocky IV. It is a great film with Rocky knocking out the communist challenger close to the time our greatest modern day President Ronald Reagan ended the cold war. Rocky was promoted as an American Hero, and he earned it in Rocky IV.
Anybody still want to like Rocky IV now?
post #15 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Ahn Ice
While I don't dislike Rocky IV, I had my fair share or problems with it. My biggest problem was Ivan Drago for the exact reasons you mentioned. He's not a human being, he's not interesting. That scene where Drago is training on that pressure machine, and the guy says "whatever he hits, he destroys!" about sums up how ridiculous a villain he was.


I think the key word you used there is "villain". The Rocky movies didn't need a villain, they needed opponents for Balboa to face. That's probably the biggest difference. Apollo, Tommy, and even to a smaller degree Clubber Lang came accross as individuals who were passionate about the sport and wanted to be the best. They weren't evil. Rocky IV goes in the opposite direction and actually gives Rocky an abstract "cause" to fight for personified by Ivan Drago. Thats the biggest failing of this entry in the franchise.


But if you seperate it from the original, it's an entertaining enough movie and encapsulates an aspect of the general feeling of it's time, even if that aspect is full of warts.
post #16 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe LeFors
I'm with Luca on this one. All of Greg's points are valid, but that's why I love the movie -- it's just so over-the-top and preposterous.
Please don't bring arm wrestling into this discussion.

Anyhow, all your arguments are bogus - the James Brown/Apollo opening number is worth the price of admission ten times over.
post #17 of 83
This is not backed up by any serious study, but, anecdotally, it seems to me that most of the people who have Rocky IV love are from the post-cold war era. Greg, I agree with you. Rocky IV is jingoistic bullshit and an embarrassment. Clubber was larger than life but still realistic (it's Mr. T who was a cartoon), and even Rocky V had a ring of truth to it (though I doubt very much an athlete of Rocky's stature could not get a licensing deal worth millions...hell look at George Foreman), but IV was pure Reagan propaganda. And bad Reagan propaganda at that.
post #18 of 83
Clubber Lang was totally realistic in light of the way athletes, and certainly boxers, are today with the media. He acted that way b/c he knew it would get him a fight with the champ, and then he would get rich and have sex with a lot of hot groupies.
post #19 of 83
Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything. I first saw it when I was 13 or so, but my eyes rolled when Rocky started giving a speech about how everyone can change and then the Russians cheered as if the movie was about Rocky trying to save the country. It stopped being about Rocky and was this national struggle as if the filmmakers were afraid that there wasn't a good enough story with focusing on Rocky.
post #20 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Ahn Ice
Clubber Lang was totally realistic in light of the way athletes, and certainly boxers, are today with the media. He acted that way b/c he knew it would get him a fight with the champ, and then he would get rich and have sex with a lot of hot groupies.
Exactly. Mr. T's performance was over the top, but still, the idea of Clubber Lang at least rings true. The idea of a human punching at 2000lbs PSI is a little more than ridiculous.
post #21 of 83
Not to mention that if you remove the two montages it's 45 minutes long.

It is interesting, however, as a historical document.
post #22 of 83
Are there really people out there who love Rocky IV with no irony? I mean, other than the sub-humans that are my extended family- no one with even half a brain derives some pleasure out of this movie without full knowledge that its preposterously jingoistic. Its camp and everyone knows it.

I've never gotten onto the fleed hate bandwagon, but HOLY SHIT
post #23 of 83
All I know is I first saw the thing when I was about 7 or 8. It was the first ROCKY I had seen all the way through and I loved it. The politics of it really didn't matter. By the time I was able to understand how jingoistic it was the Soviet Union had fallen.

As for Drago, he's a great foe for Rocky because he is so different from what he has faced prior. Apollo was a flashy trash talker. Clubber took that approach up a notch and was an asshole trash talker. So to go in the opposite direction and create a villain who intimidated with his actions and few words really helps the film stand on its own.

People complain so often about how sequels are just rehashes of what came before. Nobody can call ROCKY IV a rehash. Love it or wrongly hate it, it is its own beast.

To stray from the topic (but not really) what I love about the series is how what happens to Rocky in each film is a reflection for how the series is viewed as a whole. For instance:

ROCKY: Rocky Balboa shocks the world. Comes out of nowhere to go the distance with the champ and gains legions of fans. The film does the same. Critics and audiences agree it’s a winner.

II: The fight in the first film dazzled the public so of course there’s going to be a rematch. Rocky nor Apollo were real interested in going at it again but that is all anyone wants to see them do. The movie is the same way. Everyone loved the original so you don’t argue and you give the people what they want.

III: The public still loves Rocky but he begins to let celebrity get to his head. He doesn’t take his opponent seriously and loses his title, forcing him to dig deep to get it back. A lot of folks point to this film as the one where the series started to lose its way and amp up the cheese.

IV: Rocky has all the wealth he could dream of. Life is good until Apollo is killed. He decides to give up his title to fight Drago in Russia. The masses are on his side but critics in the press question why he would make such a ridiculous decision. The film itself is a huge financial success. The highest grosser of the series but there is a strong contingent that feels the franchise has gone off the rails in a ridiculous fashion.

V: Rocky loses it all. Forced by Paulie’s bad fiscal management to leave his estate and return to where it all began. The film itself loses on all fronts. Critics hated it and the public wanted nothing to do with it. Rocky, the boxer and the film series, is finished.

BALBOA: Rocky wants to fight again. The press, boxing fans, even old Paulie thinks he’s nuts. Stallone wants to make another ROCKY film. The press, movie fans, and the studios think he’s nuts. Rocky defies the odds to go the distance with the champ yet again. ROCKY BALBOA defies the odds to become a surprise success both with critics and at the box office.

I find the whole evolution of this franchise to be fascinating.
post #24 of 83
Like he said, I love it because of how unintentionally campy it is. This is by no means a good movie, but it is a vastly entertaining one. I would love to watch this back to back with Breakin' 2.
post #25 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.Swicegood
I think the key word you used there is "villain". The Rocky movies didn't need a villain, they needed opponents for Balboa to face. That's probably the biggest difference. Apollo, Tommy, and even to a smaller degree Clubber Lang came accross as individuals who were passionate about the sport and wanted to be the best. They weren't evil.
Ah, see, I disagree. Clubber Lang was absolutely a villain -- he made sexual overtures to Adrian, for god's sake! Hell, he basically killed Mickey! He was presented throughout the film as being fierce and cruel in a way Apollo never was. Not that this is a bad thing -- I love Clubber Lang. But Rocky III was the one that threw the Rocky mythos out the window and just became goofy entertainment. Let's not forget that the film includes a fight between Rocky and Hulk Hogan, er, I mean, Thunderlips.
post #26 of 83
Clubber Lang wasn't evil, he was just a dick. But I mean, maybe he genuinely thought Adrian laid awake all night dreaming of a real man. He was simply offering that she bring her pretty little self to his apartment so he could show her a real man.
post #27 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe LeFors
Ah, see, I disagree. Clubber Lang was absolutely a villain -- he made sexual overtures to Adrian, for god's sake! Hell, he basically killed Mickey! He was presented throughout the film as being fierce and cruel in a way Apollo never was. Not that this is a bad thing -- I love Clubber Lang. But Rocky III was the one that threw the Rocky mythos out the window and just became goofy entertainment. Let's not forget that the film includes a fight between Rocky and Hulk Hogan, er, I mean, Thunderlips.

Fair enough. But contrasted with Drago, Lang looks like a real life flesh and blood person and not a moustache twirling cartoon villain.
post #28 of 83
I learned nothing from Rocky IV that I didn't learn from Spies Like Us.

And that had a fart joke and some hot Russian chick.
post #29 of 83
Rocky IV is a GREAT bad movie and probably the best music video I've ever seen.
post #30 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe LeFors
Ah, see, I disagree. Clubber Lang was absolutely a villain -- he made sexual overtures to Adrian, for god's sake! Hell, he basically killed Mickey! He was presented throughout the film as being fierce and cruel in a way Apollo never was. Not that this is a bad thing -- I love Clubber Lang. But Rocky III was the one that threw the Rocky mythos out the window and just became goofy entertainment. Let's not forget that the film includes a fight between Rocky and Hulk Hogan, er, I mean, Thunderlips.
I always got the feeling from the way it ended that the Rocky/Thunderlips fight was sort of staged, and they do say it's an annual event, so they've done it before. Besides, Ali fought a wreslter once, so it's not too entirely out of the realm of possibility.

And Lang wasn't a villain, he was more a leaner, hungrier, less-likeable Rocky from the first film. He wanted that belt and was willing to do anything to get it, even if it led to people thinking he was a jerk. He was there to juxtapose against the pampered, success-softened Rocky we see in the third film. And look at Clubber at the end of the rematch -- he's seriously depressed he lost that fight. He's not screaming at Rocky like some kind of villain would, he hangs his head because he knows he got his ass kicked and his dream taken away from him. That's more real than anything Drago does in IV.
post #31 of 83
Eye of the Tiger is suddenly playing on the radio. Spooky.
post #32 of 83
On a completely unrelated note, Rocky III and Scarface are two movies the girlfriend forbid me to watch ever again. Her reasoning is sound: every time I watch either of those two flicks, I walk around saying "C'MON PAPER CHAMPION!" or "In this country, first you get the money...".

Rocky III is not a great movie (though, it is better than IV), but man, is T infinitely quotable.
post #33 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson
Besides, Ali fought Superman once, so it's not too entirely out of the realm of possibility.
When I worked in a video store, the manager claimed that the Rocky series was his "favorite film series ever". He said this as if to explain why, every day, he played Rocky IV and V, every day, on the store's monitors. Never the first three.
post #34 of 83
Is there really anyone on the planet who actually thinks it's a good movie? I figured the love was always either nostalgic or ironic. Surely nobody thinks this is anything better than a novelty flick. Right?
post #35 of 83
Finally, someone else who appreciates Rocky V more than Rocky IV. I just saw all the Rocky films about a year ago, and watching them all in a row I could not comprehend why part 5 got all the hate when number 4 was clearly horrendous and didn't fit in with the rest of the movies whatsoever.

But you forgot to mention the most offensive part of this entire thing: no Bill Conti Rocky theme!! With all of the montages flying around, they couldn't set one of them to that classic score?

That being said, since originally seeing Rocky IV I have come to appreciate it on a "so bad it's good" level. It's hard to be terribly offended by a movie that has a robot butler in it.
post #36 of 83
Why do Patriotic American films have to be labled Jingoistic. I find the term Jingoistic distasteful as if some America hater created it. Patriotisim, especially in a time of war is not a good thing...it is an Ideal to strive for.
post #37 of 83
I love it because it's fun, has catchy music, and I grew up with it.

That's enough reason for me to love it.
Same reasons why I love The Karate Kid series and plenty of bad action films.

Are they great films?
I think we all know they aren't, but I see no reason to dislike something so flashy and super, unless one is of an age that rendered the film disappointing upon release, making the bile stick with you for all these years.
post #38 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobClark
Is there really anyone on the planet who actually thinks it's a good movie? I figured the love was always either nostalgic or ironic.
Howbout "fun", informed by nostalgia and a love for the character?
post #39 of 83
I try not to look at Rocky IV as part of a series. It exists in an alternate universe, where Rocky is basically Superman in boxing gloves. Of course if you watch all of the movies back to back, this one will stick out like a sore thumb. But who cares? The movie is one of the most rousing experiences you can have watching a movie. To this day, watching Rocky IV makes me want to run five miles and then punch someone in the face. My reaction to watching that movie is purely visceral, as opposed to say the first Rocky, which is a purely emotional experience.

As for the movie's political point of view, clearly you must have turned off the movie before Rocky's rousing speech, where he apologizes to the Russian crowd for hating them so much, and basically singlehandedly ends the Cold War with one awkward monologue. It's about making peace with the Russians, in the end.
post #40 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin K
It's about making peace with the Russians, in the end.
Only after smashing their faces in.
post #41 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_oats
Are there really people out there who love Rocky IV with no irony?
I'm pretty sure there are. They're called kids I went to high school with. My enjoyment of the movie purely comes from the number of times I watched all of the Rocky movies as a kid. Now I just see it as a hilarious slice of 80's cheese that's all slathered up in America sauce. It's just another one of those movies like Superman IV and Star Trek VI that tried to work some kind of timely message into their franchises. Guess which one was the most realistic and even-handed? The one with Klingons.
post #42 of 83
Rocky IV is so ridiculous that I love it. There is no substitution for a genetically enhanced super-fighter not looking as buff as a man who's been running in snow with tree trunks on his back. Or for finally giving Carl Weathers his Oscar-bait death scene.

"I vill break you."

"Uhhhhhhh, yeah.... uh, we'll..... see."
post #43 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke fleed
Why do Patriotic American films have to be labled Jingoistic. I find the term Jingoistic distasteful as if some America hater created it. Patriotisim, especially in a time of war is not a good thing...it is an Ideal to strive for.
The difference between patriotism and jingoism is probably not much more complex than the difference between "I love America and want it to live up to its ideals" and "my country, right or wrong, love it or leave it, support the President"

If you don't see the difference between the two, start a thread in the politics forum.
post #44 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chavez
"my country, right or wrong, love it or leave it, support the President"
Rocky 4, right or wrong, love it or leave it, support the Italian Stallion.

Happy Birthday, Paulie? Happy Birthday to me.
post #45 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8
Rocky 4, right or wrong, love it or leave it, support the Italian Stallion.
Watch Oscar and Stop! Or My Mom Will Shoot! back to back and see if you still feel the same way.
post #46 of 83
Bob Clark, Am I still on this planet? Rocky IV is my second favorite Rocky film after the original. I enjoy the fact that Rocky defeated the EEEEEEvil Russians, their over steroided Ivan Drago, and Communism all with one final punch to the jaw of their champion. Why does anyone hate Paulies robot?
post #47 of 83
Yo Paulie, who taught duke fleed to talk like that?
post #48 of 83
Finally. I was reading the Training Montage thread and kept thinking that I was slowly going insane. Rocky IV is just a terrible film for all the reasons mentioned and then some.

I mean, duke fucking fleed likes it. Isn't that evidence enough of its staggering mediocrity?
post #49 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrybeanbag

I mean, duke fucking fleed likes it. Isn't that evidence enough of its staggering mediocrity?
fleed also likes the United States.
post #50 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrybeanbag
I mean, duke fucking fleed likes it. Isn't that evidence enough of its staggering mediocrity?
Psst, duke fleed isn't real. He's a troll, so, unless you enjoy his antics, you should pretty much ignore everything he posts.
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