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Does It Piss You Off When They Break the "Rules"?

post #1 of 62
Thread Starter 
I don't have enough on this topic to make it a Rant in A Minor or Readers' Rites article, but I am curious what my fellow Corner Creatures think of this issue.

Being a stickler for rules, it pisses me off to varying degrees (depending on how blatantly it's done, and the skill of execution of the remainder) when a novelist or filmmaker breaks the rules with respect to a legend/myth/superstition concering a monster. The most frequent example is of course the vampire. I can't stand when vampires walk abroad in daylight, with a puny pair of shades as their only protection. Or when crucifixes or wooden stakes don't work on them. It also irks me (but admittedly to a lesser degree) when werewolves can change at will and don't need the full moon.

Now there ARE exceptions, of course. In Matheson's classic "I Am Legend", for instance, crucifixes didn't work on the vamps. But that was such a skillfully executed novel (and they did have to avoid sunlight & stakes still killed them, so Matheson didn't totally throw out the rulebook) that I could overlook it there. And say what you will about it, but I kinda liked the "Vampire: The Masquerade" series. It was nowhere near the classic "I Am Legend" is, but for some reason I just dug it, and was willing to overlook (although I still grumbled about it) the fact that the vampires could walk in sunlight.

And "Underworld" would have been pretty dull if they had to wait for the full moon to have the lycans wolf out, so I can see why they took a little license there. Silver still worked, so they'll get a bye in the rules department.

Perhaps the worst offender is Anne Rice. I admit I enjoyed the first couple "Vampire" novels, but except for the night walking thing, no legends applied. Maybe she was just trying to make vampies even more glamourous and sexy than they already were (and mission accomplished, I'd say, judging by the droves of goth vamp fans she inspired). I wasn't as able to suspend my disbelief as easily here.

Some feel the same way about fast moving zombies, a la "28 Days/Weeks Later" or the 04 remake of DOTD. To these folks, fast moving zombies are sacrilege against the Cult of Saint George (I've seen T-shirts to that effect). I don't feel quite as strongly about this issue, but the fact that headshots didn't dispatch the Returning Living Dead stuck in my craw a bit. But again, the first "Return of the Living Dead" was such a fun movie, I was willing to stomach it w/o (much) complaint.

I'm not sure why I feel this way. I think it's maybe for the same reason I'm not generally a big fan of blank verse poetry (again, there are of course exceptions; e e cummings writes some great stuff, and a lot of it is blank verse; and "Death of the Ball Turret Gunner" is one of my favorite poems, and nary a rhyme's to be found therein). While I'm not a fan of HIS work, I read a quote from Robert Frost, dating from the 60's or 70's, I think, when blank verse poetry was becoming all the rage, and he was asked, as poet laureate of the United States, what he thought of the trend. He replied: "I don't like it. It's like playing baseball without the baselines." Or words to that effect. It's obviously harder for a poet to write in meter and rhyme and still get a coherent point across than to write in blank verse, I submit. Consequently, I have more respect for a poet that can write a good rhyming and metered poem. In much the same manner, I have a lot more respect for a writer or filmmaker that can work within the established framework of the legends he's writing about (the "rules", in other words) and produce an interesting, stirring, fresh story than one who throws convention out the window and reinvents the mythology (generally speaking).

Does this phenomenon bother any of you, or are you all basicaly OK with it? Why does it bother or not bother you, do you think? Any films or books/stories in particular you'd like to rant about?
post #2 of 62
Not really. New spins in single movies are fun once in a while. Everyone and their mother knows the mythology of these beasties, so new stuff is refreshing sometimes.

And other times, having the same rules in place actually ups the enjoyment (see: Monster Squad).

The only one that always irks me is the werewolf when they just turn into a normal wolf. And, I know, in the original legend that IS how it is (the anthropomorphic were's are the variation), but really... if you're gonna do a werewolf movie and only have them turn into normal wolves, there's really no point*...



* An American Werewolf in London doesn't count, by the by.
post #3 of 62
Matheson didn't really break a rule. He finds that different symbols work on different vampires. (Cortman doesn't respond to a crucifix, but he does to Jewish symbols.) It was, in a way, embelishing a rule, or at least making room for vampires with different belief systems.
post #4 of 62
It pisses me off when the established rules don't apply when vampires and werewolves are actually attacking you. I spent forever filling my super soaker with holy water only for the vampire to laugh at me when I sprayed him.

I'm dead now.
post #5 of 62
I think the, for lack of a better word, "phasing out" of religious symbols' potency on vampires makes a lot of sense, especially in modern-day vampire stories.
post #6 of 62
This reminds of the sci fi geeks who insist that every single robot must adhere to Asmiov's Three Laws of Robotics. I know of people who won't watch the Terminator films because the Terminators violate the First Law.
post #7 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu
I think the, for lack of a better word, "phasing out" of religious symbols' potency on vampires makes a lot of sense, especially in modern-day vampire stories.
I always felt that the holy symbol had to have held some meaning for the vampire in their mortal life. Hoisting up a crucifix in front of a vampire who was Jewish wouldn't work because he's not an affront to that faith, but a Star of David would work.
post #8 of 62
I like that expansion/variation on the rule a lot, but I also think White Wolf (of the Vampire games) had a neat take on the whole thing where they said that basically, in an extremely secular culture, you really really really had to believe for it to work, and even a pretty powerful vampire could kick your ass.
post #9 of 62
If I recall correctly, Dracula walked around London in full daylight, wearing a straw hat and ogling women.

I used to be more of a stickler for the "rules" but have loosened up considerably in my old age.
post #10 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayouradio
Matheson didn't really break a rule. He finds that different symbols work on different vampires. (Cortman doesn't respond to a crucifix, but he does to Jewish symbols.) It was, in a way, embelishing a rule, or at least making room for vampires with different belief systems.
Motherfucker. I'm actually working on something at the moment where a Jewish vampire is fine with a crucifix, but gets all uppity when presented with a magen david.

Now I don't know whether to still use it or not. Even though I came up with it independently, do I have a responsibility to ditch it now I know it's been done? Or should I just say "fuck it", given a large part of the story hinges on this event?
post #11 of 62
I thought Drac walked around in overcast days? I seem to recall one variant of the legend saying they had to avoid direct sunlight, so they could wander around on a cloudy day.

Plus, I think Dracula is more often than not given greater flexibility a la "the Patriarch" of the vampire kingdom.
post #12 of 62
What rules? Slavic vampires in folklore never had any trouble with sunlight, to take one of your cardinal rules. According to some sources vampires are created by suicide or demonic possession - no blood drinking. Come to that, in some cultures they rob graves instead of drinking blood from the living. Some believe that a vampire has to be buried at a crossroads before it is truly dead, or that garlic is only good for protecting the threshhold of your home.

I don't give a shit what rules are used, as long as they're consistently adhered to and come attached to an entertaining work of fiction.
post #13 of 62
To be fair on the vampire thing, there are a lot of vampire legends across the world, and many of them contradict one another. Making a vampire movie is often a case of going through the checklist and deciding which menu items are going to apply to your particular creatures of the night.

That said, I am really sick of revisionist vampirism. It seems that every single vampire movie makes a point of saying "forget what you've seen in movies, they don't work that way at all". Unfortunately, after saying this, they tend to remove all the most interesting parts of the lore, and they don't replace them with anything. Consequently, we wind up with boring cyphers who have poorly-defined superpowers, which they use to very dull effect. A supernatural entity requires rules to be an effective cinematic monster. Just chucking out all the rules makes them very weak from a dramatic perspective.

Vampires have been so robbed of all their interesting aspects that at this point, a traditional vampire movie would actually be nontraditional.

And I really can't stand the entire Anne Rice phenomenon. After reading the first two books, it was blatantly obvious that she really was only interested in writing about gay men, and for some reason decided that vampires would make fine stand-ins for that. Other than being immortal, there was really no compelling reason that her characters had to be vampires. Also, I got really fucking sick of their "woe is me" mopey bullshit. Interview With the Vampire, incidentally, is one of the rare cases of a movie adaptation rising head and shoulders above its source material. Neil Jordan understood the heart of the thing far better than Anne Rice herself did.
post #14 of 62
I really only get pissed off when a movie breaks rules for no other reason than convenience.

But saying that some movies contradict the mythology is bogus as well, due to the fact that 90% of these "rules" that have been set down in modern horror have absolutely nothing to do with any actual folklore from any culture. Will silver kill a werewolf? So will iron, in fact throwing a piece of iron over a werewolf's head will forcefully revert them to their human form. You gotta put a stake in a vampire? Sure, but then you gotta cut the head off and the heart out, stuff it all with garlic, and light it on fire, making sure to throw any animals or bugs that try to get out of the blaze back in. A long, disgusting, and not very photogenic even for a horror movie. Werewolves aren't tied to the lunar calendar in any European mythology and in fact were just as likely to be found in wolf form during the day. Vampires usually weren't perceived as sucking blood from people, but where instead recently deceased sapping the lives away from their close relatives through disease.

There's so much interesting mythology to the classic horror movie monsters that is never exploited, and what is used in its stead feels artificial and increasingly boring. Want to see some great depictions of the monsters of horror and folklore? Read Mignola's Hellboy comics, it doesn't get any better.
post #15 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syd
It pisses me off when the established rules don't apply when vampires and werewolves are actually attacking you. I spent forever filling my super soaker with holy water only for the vampire to laugh at me when I sprayed him.

I'm dead now.
Dead or undead?
post #16 of 62
I think Dracula mentions he can walk around during the day, only he is considerably less powerful. Fuck me if I can remember which iteration of Dracula it was, though.

I think every movie can pretty much make up its own shit, as long as they establish it well and don't contradict it.

Most blatant offender: Van Helsing. A werewolf is only in wolf-form by the direct light of the full moon, but remains in its wolf-form indoors. However, when clouds obscure the moon, he will revert to man-form. The fuuuck? Also the only thing that can kill Dracula is a Wolf-Man. The fuuuuck?
post #17 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg

Perhaps the worst offender is Anne Rice. I admit I enjoyed the first couple "Vampire" novels, but except for the night walking thing, no legends applied. Maybe she was just trying to make vampies even more glamourous and sexy than they already were (and mission accomplished, I'd say, judging by the droves of goth vamp fans she inspired). I wasn't as able to suspend my disbelief as easily here.
I think her greatest offense is in making vampires boring. Whiny, self-absorbed and irritating Goths more at home at Denny's drinking coffee at 2AM than crawling out of a crypt to drink your blood. Between Lestat's God-awful songs (really -- who would buy records from a guy in spandex singing bad poetry about "Those Who Must Be Kept"?) and the need to turn every single vampire into a homosexual*, I find her to books to be utterly unreadable.


*While I understand the point (vampires become asexual, and all intimacy and affection is derived on a personal connection rather than gender), it seemed more like slash fiction at times when reading about these older "mentor" vampires seducing and then living out a gay fantasy with a much younger man off the coast of Greece or in old Venice or something. After a while, it makes you want to eat your own head.

Gay vampires are fine -- Hell, I love FRIGHT NIGHT (thinly-veiled references and all). In Rice's books it just seems gratuitous.
post #18 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David
And I really can't stand the entire Anne Rice phenomenon. After reading the first two books, it was blatantly obvious that she really was only interested in writing about gay men, and for some reason decided that vampires would make fine stand-ins for that. Other than being immortal, there was really no compelling reason that her characters had to be vampires. Also, I got really fucking sick of their "woe is me" mopey bullshit. Interview With the Vampire, incidentally, is one of the rare cases of a movie adaptation rising head and shoulders above its source material. Neil Jordan understood the heart of the thing far better than Anne Rice herself did.
Ooops. Greg said it first. Sorry, Greg!
post #19 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
It pisses me off more when someone establishes a rule in their film or book and then breaks that rule in the same story.
There's where I draw the line as well. As long a film/story can establish it's own groundwork, whether it chooses to modify existing mythological rules or not, as long as it hold true to it's own established mythos, then I'm alright with it. When it ignores it's own rules is when I break out the FF button or shut it off completely.

I'd actually like to see more films break from tradition and establish a new set of rules with existing character types. Referencing Vampires, establishing there are different breeds of them (the Goth types vs. Nosferatu) would liven the genre up a bit. It's interesting you bring up the "28 Days Later" zombie issue, as I've completely dissociated those films from the zombie genre. I actually really liked the reality based "zombie" concept establishing a new set of rules, although their decision to defy all reason, logic and common sense for everything else in the sequel marred my enthusiasm for that franchise.

I also hate when they only vaguely reference the rules, such as the different abilities tossed around to vampires in "Interview with a Vampire". Why it seems only Stephen Rhea can walk on the ceiling, and Brad Pitt gained the ability to move at lighting speed much later without any description of the framework they were playing in annoys the hell out of me. Perhaps that information was in in the book(s), but as I'm not an overweight goth chick or Greg David, I haven't read them.
post #20 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormin
Read Mignola's Hellboy comics, it doesn't get any better.
I love how Mignola "gets" folklore in its own right, and is also capable of reprocessing it for a modern audience. You're dead on balls accurate, Stormin.
post #21 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David
Interview With the Vampire, incidentally, is one of the rare cases of a movie adaptation rising head and shoulders above its source material. Neil Jordan understood the heart of the thing far better than Anne Rice herself did.
Further, this is the film that made me reappraise Tom Cruise. I didn't think he'd be able to pull off the narcissistic, self-indulgent rock star vibe of Lestat, but he nailed it.

Now that I think about it, perhaps he was warming up for later in life.
post #22 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayouradio
Matheson didn't really break a rule. He finds that different symbols work on different vampires. (Cortman doesn't respond to a crucifix, but he does to Jewish symbols.) It was, in a way, embelishing a rule, or at least making room for vampires with different belief systems.
That's true, but part of the problem I have with that idea is that if you acept vampires as supernatural beings of evil for purposes of the film, and my reading of traditional Christian European folklore on this score has them being created by Satan, the same symbols of Christianity should work on all of them. It's not the vampire's ethos that's important, but the power the symbol derives from their adversary (in this framework, the Christian God). To say otherwise kind of reminds me of the idea Rice posited in memnoch the Devil and Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore have used in their comics, that you only go to Hell if you "want to". By that logic, Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer won't go to Hell becuase their morality doesn't see anything wrong with what they do. I think horror fiction is robbed of a good deal of its impact if the idea of some behavior being evil intrinsically is removed from the equation. Similarly, if vampires or whatever are no longer creatures of Christian folklore, subject to the power of Christian holy symbols, I think they're kind of robbed of their mystique to some extent as well (assuming, of course, that this is the route you chose when beginning the narrative in the first place; if your vampires are aliens, or created by a disease & not the "traditional" way of an exceptionally evil person being cursed by God or Satan, then I guess you can feel free to "break the rules". But if the author CHOOSES the framework he's working within, I think my gripe applies). Matheson's use of the idea that differing holy symbols work on different vampires depending on that vamp's pre-vamp ethos is somewhat internaly inconsistent, when you think about it. Following his logic, an atheist vampire would not be affected by any holy symbol. So why would crosses or stars of David work on the others? Why should any holy symbol have any power at all? Either it does because God (in whatever version) gives it power, or it doesn't because that part of the folklore was rubbish to begin with. Making the power vampire dependent, in other words deriving the power from the vampire and his belief system, does something of a disservice to the narrative's consistency, I think.
post #23 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David
To be fair on the vampire thing, there are a lot of vampire legends across the world, and many of them contradict one another. Making a vampire movie is often a case of going through the checklist and deciding which menu items are going to apply to your particular creatures of the night.

That said, I am really sick of revisionist vampirism. It seems that every single vampire movie makes a point of saying "forget what you've seen in movies, they don't work that way at all". Unfortunately, after saying this, they tend to remove all the most interesting parts of the lore, and they don't replace them with anything. Consequently, we wind up with boring cyphers who have poorly-defined superpowers, which they use to very dull effect. A supernatural entity requires rules to be an effective cinematic monster. Just chucking out all the rules makes them very weak from a dramatic perspective.

Vampires have been so robbed of all their interesting aspects that at this point, a traditional vampire movie would actually be nontraditional.

And I really can't stand the entire Anne Rice phenomenon. After reading the first two books, it was blatantly obvious that she really was only interested in writing about gay men, and for some reason decided that vampires would make fine stand-ins for that. Other than being immortal, there was really no compelling reason that her characters had to be vampires. Also, I got really fucking sick of their "woe is me" mopey bullshit. Interview With the Vampire, incidentally, is one of the rare cases of a movie adaptation rising head and shoulders above its source material. Neil Jordan understood the heart of the thing far better than Anne Rice herself did.
Finally, I have a reason to actually watch Interview with the Vampire.

But yeah- as far as breaking rules goes generally, it entirely depends on how the film does it. Do they make things more interesting? Are they worked intelligently into the plot? All those kind of obvious points.
Near Dark and Chronos, I'd remind people, are arguably the best modern vampire films we have.
post #24 of 62
I think Death Surge is right in that you can really only hold the author to the rules he or she sets up explicitly or maybe via an explicit framework (e.g. if it's a suave aristocratic Transylvanian type, it's probably safe to assume that Stoker rules apply).

We have a skewed perception of the folklore, because so much of what we tend to recognize as vampiric has been informed by the overwhelming shadow cast by Stoker's book and filmic representations of it. As has been mentioned in this thread, this was predated by centuries of vampires or vampire-like beings in folklore. In some incarnations, it appeared before Christianity and even Judaism (which calls into question the importance of the cross and even Hebraic religious symbols). Our conception is almost entirely a 19th century creation.

The first appearance of the modern vampire is usually traced back to Polidori's The Vampyre (1819), and the vampire in question is basically a fanged-out version of Lord Byron (with whom Polidori had a love-hate relationship). I've never read it, but I suspect he was more concerned with fucking with Byron's image than establishing "the rules" of vampirism or whatever. In any case, 1819 isn't really that long ago in the grand scheme of things. It's not like the rules established there or in Stoker or in the literature that came in between (Carmilla, for instance - lesbian vampire exploitation stories predate Stoker, which is neat) are somehow The Rules for all time.
post #25 of 62
The more I read about the myth and folklore about other cultures, the less concerned I am about someone playing jazz with the "rules" (Stoker and a 1/2 of a century of Hollywood). I wrote a vamp script a couple years back for Project Greenlight (finished somewhere in the top 25% yay me) and one of the 1st things I did before typing anything was to read a 1000+ page vampire encyclopedia to see which superstitions and tidbits spoke to me the most for the story I wanted to tell.

It's a shame that Capt Kronos (Hammer) never became a franchise, because the first installment used a variation of the legend (vamp fed on the "youth" of its victims and needed to be killed with steel blade forged from a cemetery cross), informing the heroes that all bets are off and a mystery (besides just the identity of the killer/s) needed to be solved.

In Matheson's book, the aversion to mirrors and crosses (or, in the case of one vampire of Jewish origin, the Torah) is classified as psychological. Therefore, it would be the individual faith of the monster that effects them. In classical (non-secular/scifi) versions, they ARE evil and Christianity is yeilded as a weapon, but often it's the strength of the faith of our hero that determines the effectiveness of the cross-weilding, and not the "guilt" of the vampire.

Like others have said, as long as the flick/story doesn't break its own rules and as long as the rules aren't too dumb (Van Helsing WTF), I'm cool with it. Matheson's origin (bacterium) for the vampiric outbreak could be seen as a major rule-breaker, in the eyes of the steadfast classical vampire fan. Folklore is allowed to grow/evolve/mutate along with society. It has to. Otherwise it's just mythology (dead stories that refelected an ancient time). Folklore is supposed to reflect the fears and morals of the times. That's why the horror and scifi genres are great for tapping into that subconscious. As our fears/concerns/morals change, so do the details of the stories.


The ONLY rules you need to concern yourself with are:

1. Don't ever get him wet.
2. Keep him away from bright light.
3. And the most important thing, the one thing you must never forget: no matter how much he cries, no matter how much he begs . . . never, never feed him after midnight.
post #26 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8
Folklore is allowed to grow/evolve/mutate along with society. It has to. Otherwise it's just mythology (dead stories that refelected an ancient time). Folklore is supposed to reflect the fears and morals of the times. That's why the horror and scifi genres are great for tapping into that subconscious. As our fears/concerns/morals change, so do the details of the stories.
Exactly. There was no authority here to begin with, so the rules we pick or innovate upon are entirely arbitrary.

Even the traits we consider "classical" (the aversion to holy symbols and garlic, the requirement of an invitation into one's house, etc.) are just a particular take on folklore that goes much further back. The only thing that even approaches consistent throughout is the blood-draining and maybe the undead status - and even those aren't universal. Everything was all-over-the-map until the 19th century and a bunch of folklore from different traditions (not even originally related to vampires in some cases) got thrown together, and, because of the popularity of the works, this version was accepted as authoritative.
post #27 of 62
I like the new, Carl Lewis, sprinting type of Zombies. They are terrifying.

In watching 28 days and the Dawn remake, I found myself saying 'That would fucking suck' often.
post #28 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB
Exactly. There was no authority here to begin with, so the rules we pick or innovate upon are entirely arbitrary.

Even the traits we consider "classical" (the aversion to holy symbols and garlic, the requirement of an invitation into one's house, etc.) are just a particular take on folklore that goes much further back. The only thing that even approaches consistent throughout is the blood-draining and maybe the undead status - and even those aren't universal. Everything was all-over-the-map until the 19th century and a bunch of folklore from different traditions (not even originally related to vampires in some cases) got thrown together, and, because of the popularity of the works, this version was accepted as authoritative.
Bingo.

Because of the invention of the printing press, Stoker's book & fame, and subsequent stage performance of the play and then Universal's (ironic name for the movie studio in this discussion) seminal take on the material... we have that version of the folklore ingrained and spread throughout the "civilized" world. But even to today, the Chinese vampire in their horror flicks has mainly remained true to their culture until very recently.
post #29 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
I suppose the modern day equivalent of an evolving supernatural folklore is stories of alien abductions, crop circles and greys, but I wouldn't want anyone telling me that I had to adhere to Whitley Strieber's take when I make a movie or write a book about alien visitation. There's always a bare bones concept to be found behind any type of folk creature but the details are always going to vary by who is telling the story.
True and fortunately there's enough precedence of Hollywood variation already established. From Close Encounters to Fire in the Sky to Flight of the Navigator to Altered to X-Files to Chicken Little etc etc etc.

As much as I'm not a big fan of extreme impressionism/abtractism and other puzzling forms of modern art, if no one stepped outside the strict boundaries of the classic realism of the Rennaissance (which I am a fan of... those were some amazing draftsman), we wouldn't have cartooning, comics, and animation (of which I've been a student and career-builder).

EDIT: Truth is... rules are a blue-print, but effective artists (and storytellers) manipulate those guidelines to showcase a unique vision. It's the final product that should be judged, not the methods and materials. And playing on audience's expectations is part of the fun in the telling of a good yarn, right? Fear of the unknown (especially when more familiar "rules" have been broken) can create an unease in your audience. The "WTF is gonna happen next?" feeling can be injected into familiar monster genres (vampires, zombies). Why should Cronenberg, King, Lynch, Coscarelli, Barker, etc have all the fun?
post #30 of 62
The primary problem with setting a mandatory adherence to predetermined set of rules is that you stifle any innovation and can lose some interesting story lines. "Near Dark" was a good example, as there's only so many times I can see a suave Transylvanian making women swoon and draining them of blood before I'm completely tired of the concept. What made it such a beloved film (besides Jenny Wright's cleavage) was it taking the vampire concept and twisting it to alternate conventions. They don't have fangs, they don't sleep in coffins, and the word "Vampire" is never mentioned once in the film, keeping only the allergy to daylight, drinking blood, and immortality (which by the way, Henrickson's "I fought for the South....We lost. " remains the single best way that concept has been conveyed). The rule changes were the story, such as introducing the downside of a child growing emotionally while trapped in the same prepubescent body( Anne Rice may have written about it earlier, but Kirstin Dunst came later and didn't sell it nearly as well) and how vampires would exist in the modern world.

Play with the rules all you want, but don't break the ones you create.
post #31 of 62
Consider all the variations Jordan has on the werewolf legend just in the one film, Company of Wolves. Such a great mix of classic folktales and more modern werewolf cinema.

Cultural Archetypes exist for a reason... but the collective unconscious paints a pretty broad stroke. There's comfort (and contempt) in familiarity, but horror is much more organic to be beholden to a strict set of rules.

Folklore "whisper down the alley" is how urban legends, bed time stories, cryptozoology and the like get started and evolve.

The only thing that's definitive in horror, is what scares you. No 2 people are alike. I'm glad there's enough out there (variations on the classics) for everyone.
post #32 of 62
I've got not problem with rules established in a particular film, just as long as those rules are followed and aren't broken.

Each movie is it's own universe and each subsequent sequel movie should follow those pre-established rules.

Sequel's breaking the previously defined rules and already created universe piss me off.

I've got no problem with two different movies covering a similar mythos or idea and coming to two totally different conclusions.
post #33 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8
Because of the invention of the printing press, Stoker's book & fame, and subsequent stage performance of the play and then Universal's (ironic name for the movie studio in this discussion) seminal take on the material... we have that version of the folklore ingrained and spread throughout the "civilized" world.
Regarding the impact of Stoker's novel (which I'm presently re-reading), it's interesting to note that Dracula's death does not occur as a result of the "traditional" means of dispatching a vampire. Dracula does not have a wooden stake plunged through his heart. He's not disintegrated by sunlight (although the need to uncover him before the sun sets is a major plot point). Rather, and here there be SPOILERS for the few people who haven't read the novel, a good old fashioned Bowie knife is used to gut him while he lies in his coffin. It's fascinating as a product of symbolism, but somewhat mundane in the execution. Still, I wonder how many people are aware of this.
post #34 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
There's room for everyone's take on fake monsters and the fake rules that come with them.
Fake? You, my friend, have never taken a roadtrip to the cemetery-city of Midian...

...or Walmart at 2am.
post #35 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by billylove
I've got not problem with rules established in a particular film, just as long as those rules are followed and aren't broken.

Each movie is it's own universe and each subsequent sequel movie should follow those pre-established rules.

Sequel's breaking the previously defined rules and already created universe piss me off.

I've got no problem with two different movies covering a similar mythos or idea and coming to two totally different conclusions.
Exactly...which is why the "...and HERE'S one I made earlier..." speed of the alien life-cycle is another nail (and there are MANY) in the coffin of AvP.

Though it is obviously debatable if it IS in fact a sequel/prequel.
post #36 of 62
Thread Starter 
I'm glad I sparked such a lively debate. We haven't had one of these in awhile. Even if the majority of you don't agree w/ me. I hear what you're saying about different cultures' takes on the "vampire" concept (and Darkmite, I'd like your thorough ass to provide a few of the titles to those Chinese vampire movies you mention; I'd like to see some). I was thinking today whilst driving to court about this concept, & how I'd like to see someone take it on. As for the mentions of alien and robot archetypes, I think authors and filmmakers have even more freedom here than w/ more "traditional" monsters (even when they play loose with the "rules"), because there isn't as ingrained a set of folk beliefs surrounding them. Robots of the type anyone's going to write about haven't been invented yet, so every author can pretty much define them however he wants. The existence of aliens hasn't been conclusively proven, either, and there's such a vast number of stars out there that there can be an equally vast number of alien races authors can create out of whole cloth.
post #37 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg
...and Darkmite, I'd like your thorough ass to provide a few of the titles to those Chinese vampire movies you mention; I'd like to see some.
No prob. Here's some quick reference:

Chinese Vampire on wikipedia.
Hopping Mad: A Brief Look at Chinese Vampire Movies
Horror, Humor and Hopping in Hong Kong
Chinese Vampire DVD's

The Mr. Vampire series, Spooky Encounters, and Legend of the 7 Golden Vampires are a good start.
post #38 of 62
Thread Starter 
Very well said. I guess I kind of feel the same way (i.e., that SLAVISH devotion isn't absolutely necessary), but I'd still like to see SOME adherence to the archetypes when you're working with them. It just really drives me mad when they throw EVERYTHING out the window and call it a vampire, or a werewolf or whatever, and it bears little or no resemblance to anything commonly regarded as such in the culture.

Edited to add: Oh, and thanks, Darkmite, as always.
post #39 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattioli
Regarding the impact of Stoker's novel (which I'm presently re-reading), it's interesting to note that Dracula's death does not occur as a result of the "traditional" means of dispatching a vampire. Dracula does not have a wooden stake plunged through his heart. He's not disintegrated by sunlight (although the need to uncover him before the sun sets is a major plot point). Rather, and here there be SPOILERS for the few people who haven't read the novel, a good old fashioned Bowie knife is used to gut him while he lies in his coffin. It's fascinating as a product of symbolism, but somewhat mundane in the execution. Still, I wonder how many people are aware of this.
What you say regarding Drac's death is true. It's been probably 12 -15 years since I read this (at least), so correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't they jam the bowie knife in his heart, thus "staking" him, and use a Gurkha kukri knife to decapitate him, which was also a commonly held vamp killing technique?

I honestly forgot about the part where he walks abroad in the London daylight, but I'd argue that w/ the death scene, Stoker basically adhered to the archetypal "rules".
post #40 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobClark
That whole "invite a vampire into your home" rule needs to be abolished. There are just to many logistical inconstencies. Sometimes it can be used as a nice bit of subtle foreshadowing (Fright Night), but it just breaks down if you try to use it as a major plot device. And how did all those other lost boys get into the house if they weren't invited, anyway?
I always got the idea that the makers of the Lost Boys didn't use the "invite the vampire in" rule as a prerequisite for their being able to enter the house, but that if you DID invite one in, as Ed Hermann said, you have no power over him. maybe not the strictest interpretation of that old saw, but I just always thought that was the one they were going with.

King, on the other hand in 'Salem's Lot, seemed to take the opposite approach; they have to be invited in before they can enter your home at all, but you aren't robbed of power when you do so (hence the good Father's ability to keep one at bay with a cross, even after the invite).

this, BTW, isn't a "rule" I feel very strongly about, because it does have a tendency to inhibit plot development. But as Bob astutely points out, sometimes it is kinda neat. But as has ben said, if you use this device, you gotta use it ALL the time in the same story.
post #41 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg
this, BTW, isn't a "rule" I feel very strongly about, because it does have a tendency to inhibit plot development. But as Bob astutely points out, sometimes it is kinda neat. But as has ben said, if you use this device, you gotta use it ALL the time in the same story.
I could never work out the details. Can it be a rental? Does the mortgage need to be paid off? Can it be a cardboard box in an alley? What if your name's not on the lease? What if your crashing on your brother's couch? If you live in an RV, can your protection travel around/with you?

I believe my Ravenloft (yeah I was a D&D nerd) vampire manual said that a person's home was almost like a personal church, so in effect, it was "hallowed" ground or something like that.

It can't be just because a vamp is too polite to invite themselves? What if a vampire is invited to a birthday party, but doesn't RSVP? What then?
post #42 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca S.

Most blatant offender: Van Helsing. A werewolf is only in wolf-form by the direct light of the full moon, but remains in its wolf-form indoors. However, when clouds obscure the moon, he will revert to man-form. The fuuuck? Also the only thing that can kill Dracula is a Wolf-Man. The fuuuuck?
Yes, but: Kate Beckinsale in corset, bouncy bouncy bouncy.

With regard to film adaptations of Dracula, as I recall, there are actually no descriptions of Dracula's teeth in the original novel. The original Murnau Nosferatu used his two front teeth to pierce the skin. It was only later that the filmic convention for Dracula to use his canines came into being. The point being, a book can only describe so much: any adaptation has to take some license somewhere.
post #43 of 62
Actually, Dracula's teeth are described in the novel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoker
The mouth, so far as I could see it under the heavy moustache, was fixed and rather cruel-looking, with peculiarly sharp white teeth; these protruded over the lips, whose remarkable ruddiness showed astonishing vitality in a man of his years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil!
And yet, Martin is one of the best films of the genre.
Martin isn't a great example, though, since the film is so ambiguous about whether he actually is a vampire. He might just be a crazy guy who thinks he's a vampire.
post #44 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg
I honestly forgot about the part where he walks abroad in the London daylight, but I'd argue that w/ the death scene, Stoker basically adhered to the archetypal "rules".
I think the prevalance of vampire literature (and the notion of scientific methodology and consistency being applied to folklore and fantasy) in the 20th Century often confuses us into believing that there are established archetypes and texts of authority that predate Stoker. I don't think this is true. That relatively modern piece of literature was really the key text in codifying the "rules" of the genre in the public's mind (though the earlier 19th century novels and penny dreadfuls began this process). Before that, the vampire figure was more of a grab bag of folk tale influences. No one was cross-checking Carmilla with The Vampyre for following the same "rules." If each worked as a stand-alone piece of literature, that was enough.

I could be wrong about this, but I think the heart removal/staking procedure was either a Stoker invention or something borrowed from non-vampire legends. So it's not so much adhering to as defining the archetype. From what Wikipedia says (it's been years since I read the novel), it's stated earlier in the book that a vampire needs to be killed with a wooden stake through the heart, and this method is used on Lucy. So Stoker might not even be playing by his own rules in that Dracula isn't killed by the same means.
post #45 of 62
What follows is in response to DaveB's post and is taken from Chapter 18 of Dracula. As may be surmised from the dialogue, it's Van Helsing holding forth on the extent of Dracula's powers. It's a bit long, but I thought it was pretty instructive for purposes of this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mina Harker's Journal
"Now let us see how far the general powers arrayed against us are restrict, and how the individual cannot. In fine, let us consider the limitations of the vampire in general, and of this one in particular.

"All we have to go upon are traditions and superstitions. These do not at the first appear much, when the matter is one of life and death, nay of more than either life or death. Yet must we be satisfied, in the first place because we have to be, no other means is at our control, and secondly, because, after all these things, tradition and superstition, are everything. Does not the belief in vampires rest for others, though not, alas! for us, on them! A year ago which of us would have received such a possibility, in the midst of our scientific, sceptical, matter-of-fact nineteenth century? We even scouted a belief that we saw justified under our very eyes. Take it, then, that the vampire, and the belief in his limitations and his cure, rest for the moment on the same base. For, let me tell you, he is known everywhere that men have been. In old Greece, in old Rome, he flourish in Germany all over, in France, in India, even in the Chermosese, and in China, so far from us in all ways, there even is he, and the peoples for him at this day. He have follow the wake of the berserker Icelander, the devil-begotten Hun, the Slav, the Saxon, the Magyar.

"So far, then, we have all we may act upon, and let me tell you that very much of the beliefs are justified by what we have seen in our own so unhappy experience. The vampire live on, and cannot die by mere passing of the time, he can flourish when that he can fatten on the blood of the living. Even more, we have seen amongst us that he can even grow younger, that his vital faculties grow strenuous, and seem as though they refresh themselves when his special pabulum is plenty.

"But he cannot flourish without this diet, he eat not as others. Even friend Jonathan, who lived with him for weeks, did never see him eat, never! He throws no shadow, he make in the mirror no reflect, as again Jonathan observe. He has the strength of many of his hand, witness again Jonathan when he shut the door against the wolves, and when he help him from the diligence too. He can transform himself to wolf, as we gather from the ship arrival in Whitby, when he tear open the dog, he can be as bat, as Madam Mina saw him on the window at Whitby, and as friend John saw him fly from this so near house, and as my friend Quincey saw him at the window of Miss Lucy.

"He can come in mist which he create, that noble ship's captain proved him of this, but, from what we know, the distance he can make this mist is limited, and it can only be round himself.

"He come on moonlight rays as elemental dust, as again Jonathan saw those sisters in the castle of Dracula. He become so small, we ourselves saw Miss Lucy, ere she was at peace, slip through a hairbreadth space at the tomb door. He can, when once he find his way, come out from anything or into anything, no matter how close it be bound or even fused up with fire, solder you call it. He can see in the dark, no small power this, in a world which is one half shut from the light. Ah, but hear me through.

"He can do all these things, yet he is not free. Nay, he is even more prisoner than the slave of the galley, than the madman in his cell. He cannot go where he lists, he who is not of nature has yet to obey some of nature's laws, why we know not. He may not enter anywhere at the first, unless there be some one of the household who bid him to come, though afterwards he can come as he please. His power ceases, as does that of all evil things, at the coming of the day.

"Only at certain times can he have limited freedom. If he be not at the place whither he is bound, he can only change himself at noon or at exact sunrise or sunset. These things we are told, and in this record of ours we have proof by inference. Thus, whereas he can do as he will within his limit, when he have his earth-home,his coffin-home, his hellhome, the place unhallowed, as we saw when he went to the grave of the suicide at Whitby, still at other time he can only change when the time come. It is said, too, that he can only pass running water at the slack or the flood of the tide. Then there are things which so afflict him that he has no power, as the garlic that we know of, and as for things sacred, as this symbol, my crucifix, that was amongst us even now when we resolve, to them he is nothing, but in their presence he take his place far off and silent with respect. There are others, too, which I shall tell you of, lest in our seeking we may need them.

"The branch of wild rose on his coffin keep him that he move not from it, a sacred bullet fired into the coffin kill him so that he be true dead, and as for the stake through him, we know already of its peace, or the cut off head that giveth rest. We have seen it with our eyes."
post #46 of 62
And even all of that is given as hypothetical, since Van Helsing admits he only has the legends to go on, aside from some of the stuff he and Jonathan had witnessed that confirm them.

It's interesting to see how folklore conflicts with Van Helsing's approach, which is pseudo-scientific. Despite this attempt to present a folkloric element in a post-enlightenment context, the rules, if elaborated upon, all make very little sense. Like BobClark said above, the "invite a vampire into your home" thing is completely illogical. What constitutes a "home?" Is a cardboard box a home? What about an apartment? A college dorm (I noticed, while recently watching a fourth season episode of Buffy, that Spike entered Willow and Buffy's room sans invite)?

I think you have to reject the rules to some extent, because the rules, when taken to their ultimate conclusions, are usually nonsensical. Does garlic salt work? Garlic flavoring? Is garlic gone bad less effective? Do representations of Buddha work or are vampires only hung up on Western theology? Even minor infractions of internal consistency are fine as long as the story's good (over many seasons of Buffy and Angel, I'm pretty sure bent rules went unacknowledged by Whedon and his writers, but you seldom hear complaints, since the shows were generally well done). Scary things are scarier when you don't have an exact blueprint for how they work, anyway.
post #47 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB
Does garlic salt work?
Worked in Monster Squad.

What's interesting about the juxtapostion of science and superstition in that Victorian era to me is (it would make sense for them to exist hand in hand)... they were still in the phase of discovery (we still are actually), medicine was still a mystery to a great extent, and there weren't answers for a lot of things. Great time-period to give birth to the classic horror and sci-fi of its day (Shelley, Vernes, Wells, etc). Medicine and technology were exciting (and SCARY) endeavors back then. Life & death, playing God, weapons of mass destruction, visitors from "neighboring" worlds, blood disorders and plagues... and all relevant in the present as well. Our knowledge may grow, but our fears stay constant. The fact that our knowledge does grow is a sign that rules may change (on a superstition note), but the deeper we look, the more questions pop up. And like faith-based religions, no amount of science will ever be able to prove (or disprove) the existence of the supernatural... fortunately, for horror fans. No matter where our telescopes or microscopes allow us to see, there will always be a "beyond".

EDIT: Reminds me of the passage on size from the Dark Tower: The Gunslinger...
post #48 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
Nonsensical rules for nonsensical beings then become a test of faith. Adhere to the rules despite them making no logical sense or fall prey to the monster. The details of the rules aren't as important as their ultimate acceptance by the hero as an only means to vanquish the evil in a particular story.

Which, I'd point out, is exactly the point in novels such as Salem's Lot. The question was posed, supra, about whether a crucifix would work on a jewish vampire. King's take (and one I thought worked extremely well) was that the symbol--be it cross, star of david, or four leaf clover-- is mostly irrelevant except as a focal point for the possessor's faith. As a consequence, if the possessor lacks faith, whether in God or, by extension, the symbol's ability to stop the vampire, the symbol will not work. In that sense, a crucifix would stop a jewish vamp so long as the possessor truly believed that it would stop the vamp.
post #49 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
Nonsensical rules for nonsensical beings then become a test of faith. Adhere to the rules despite them making no logical sense or fall prey to the monster. The details of the rules aren't as important as their ultimate acceptance by the hero as an only means to vanquish the evil in a particular story.
Pan's Labyrinth (and many old faerie tales), and especially Ofelia's encounter with the Pale Man come to mind.

Aplogies for editing my post so long after the fact, but thoughts kept popping into my head.
post #50 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattioli
Which, I'd point out, is exactly the point in novels such as Salem's Lot. The question was posed, supra, about whether a crucifix would work on a jewish vampire. King's take (and one I thought worked extremely well) was that the symbol--be it cross, star of david, or four leaf clover-- is mostly irrelevant except as a focal point for the possessor's faith. As a consequence, if the possessor lacks faith, whether in God or, by extension, the symbol's ability to stop the vampire, the symbol will not work. In that sense, a crucifix would stop a jewish vamp so long as the possessor truly believed that it would stop the vamp.
This view was also put forth in an early 80s issue of the X-Men, when they confronted Dracula, and Kitty Pryde, a Jew, had no luck with a cross, but her Star of David pendant worked. Then, Nightcrawler, the devout Christian, crudely fashioned a cross out of two sticks, and it seemed to yield even more results. They probably copped it from King, but I didn't know that at the time. I thought it was clever.
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