Straczynski thinks OMD sucks - Page 2

No, no. Turned out it was only 20 years of books becoming worthless. 'Scuse me while I go back to banging my head against the wall...

ETA: Quesada mentions in the CBR interview that had they gone with JMS' final story as he delivered it, it would've affected the "Brand New Day" storyline and a year's worth of Spidey stories - so ain't no marriage restoration til 2009 (if then), unless the readers boycott the title or something. Hell, I'll recant my earlier prediction that this'd be over in a year, and lay money that the marriage will be back in time for Spider-Man 4.

Or his Uncle Ben calling Peter a douche. Or Gwen ripping him a new one. Or his folks shaking their heads disapprovingly.

Well, I'm no analyst, but I think the general consensus is that while the nerdish continuity stuff (like Big Events) is still making dough for the Big Two, it's non-sustainable. The fanbase is shrinking more and more every year, while the audience for other genres and formats is slowly growing. I think there's a general sense that the future of comics lies outside the DC and Marvel heroes, even if the numbers are still there for now. While everyone else is diversifying, attempting to rope in new readers and kids, and moving towards more promising formats, the superhero genre is becoming sick and inbred, and it's partly thanks to continuity.

More importantly, if you're thinking long-term, standalone comic stories, if they're classics, can have major longevity. Look at Watchmen, a consistant seller for 20 years now. And that's partly because anyone can buy it and read it without having to know the decades of history of the characters.

I will admit that if Marvel just went all-out and only wrote superhero stories for obsessive fanboys with a thorough knowledge of continuity, they would probably do better. It's making half-assed attempts to please everyone that are causing crap like this. As I kind of suggested above, I think Marvel could have it both ways (floppies for fanboys, standalone trades for everyone else) if they put a little thought into it, but I think most of the people in charge are fanboys themselves, and that's clouding their judgment.

I kinda wanted to take a shit on this comic issue.

The only thing that went through my mind was "Why?"

I don't understand what the fuck is so bad about Peter being married. We've had TONS more interesting stories with their marriage then all the times where they've separated or Ben Reilly took over and we've had "Dating Spider-Man". JMS' run on Spidey alone made their marriage very interesting. Seriously, I would like to know who was jonesing for this. Who read the comic books and thought "You know, I wish they never got married". I for one did not hear a majority of fans say that.

This, plus the conclusion of World War Hulk (and the ridiculous amount of spinoffs coming out of that), plus the identity of the new Captain America (Why?? He was a plenty fine character already and he's nothing like Cap), Wolverine and Wolverine: Origins, which is such a frustrating book, all this just makes me want to piss on Marvel for 2007. I dig that they're mixing things up, but they make some stupid ass decisions.

In general it seems as if the comic fanbase HATES OMD. Newsarama had a good roundtable discussion about it and the many, many problems it creates in almost every other book.

One problem I think Marvel has is that Joe Q loves the spotlight. He seems more interested in getting news pub and shaking things up then he is in putting out good, quality books. Personally I have no problem with shaking things up a bit but the execution and storyline used in OMD is an abomination. I hope this sinks the Spidey books and leads to a new EIC at Marvel.

I read the roundtable, and I have to agree with ya, Judge. I even checked Marvel.com's poll and, at the time I'm typing this, 68% of those polled are bailing on the book. Whether the readers hold true to this threat, of course, is speculative. Guess we won't know for a couple of months, after the first sales figures for Brand New day kick in.

'// It's more like 77%, the other poll option is "I won't collect any more Marvel titles". Then again, online polls are worthless of course.

Fair enough - it's just interesting to see the backlash OMD generated. Ultimately, however, it'll wind up all for naught; the marraige will be back eventually, probably through an even more contrived method than Mephisto's evil whammy.

They may be geared solely towards money (which hardly disqualifies them from being fanboys--comic fans have had an unfortunate mercenary tendency ever since the days when saving Rob Liefeld comics with variant covers were supposedly going to make you a millionaire), but I think the fact that they're too boxed-in by traditional ideas of what comics are supposed to be is precisely what marks them as products of the medium. If they were really rapacious corporate sharks of the kind working in the movie industry, where they literally don't give a shit about the medium and just want to make it maximally profitable, continuity would have gone by the wayside ages ago.

We're mostly in agreement about the trends, I think, just not the causes. I maintain that Quesada, Didio, and their ilk are thinking way too small. Anyone with a brain can see the fanbase is withering, despite having a higher profile than ever thanks to all the big-budget movies, and yet there seems to be this floundering, nerdish inability to produce anything that isn't for the faithful. The general defensiveness about the treatment of women in comics, and the inability to tap that market, is a great example (though the Minx line shows that someone's finally making an effort, at least). Things do seem to be turning around a bit in this regard, but then, OMD seems like a major setback. It's time for these guys to shit or get off the pot. Your statement about trades and HCs vs. monthlies just confirms this. The monthlies are suffering because they're half-assing it. Either give the fans what they want and keep the money flowing, or get a good writer to shake things up and let him commit to his plot twist the way he wants to. It sounds like Qusada managed to get the worst of both worlds on this.

Actually, now that I think about it...Brand New Day might just explore the possibilities the lack of continuity allows and then at the end it'll go back to the way it was before. Maybe. Remember people gave a big hoot about Spidey's new costume and the whole time it was intended as temporary.

What aggrevates me is that the motivations Quesada listed (marriage aged Spidey, etc.) are pretty much solved in the Ultimate and Adventures (kid friendly) titles. There really was no reason, apart from Joe Q.'s hissy fit about the marriage, for OMD. if anything, this should have been Aunt May's swan song - her spirit was ready to go (and TOLD Spidey she was ready to go - how much more of a clue does he need anyway?), her death would've added a new level of angst to Spidey, MJ would've been the sole support system for Pete and thus become a more interesting character, etc. Plus, like the old days, Spidey would be an outlaw again. With him and MJ "on the run", it'd be a great opportunity to get Spidey out of NYC for awhile, and have him interact with all these new heroes the Initiative put in place (least ways until the Skrull Invasion - betcha many of these new heroes are Skrulls or will wind up as cannon fodder during the resulting war, sort of like I was hoping would happen in World War Hulk).

Ah, well... guess it'll never happen now. Real tragedy is we might have to go through the Clone Saga again or Secret Wars 2 - maybe Joe Q. can redraw the scenes where Spidey teaches the Beyonder how to take a shit?

Have that issue - interesting story, and always thought having that favor from Loki would come in handy someday. But, like the spider-baby stuff, that seems to have fallen by the wayside. Hopefully, you'll be proven right.

I haven't even bothered reading the last issue yet, but yeah it sounds to be even worse than I thought.

This whole thing, to me, is bringing out the worst of online debate. I keep seeing the same old shit over and over.

One thing that keeps frustrating me in discussions about this kind of topic is the idea that somehow all the stories this rolls back the clock on are somehow shittier or worthless because of it. If you still enjoy said stories and have fond memories of them, such a stupid thing shouldn't sully them so much. People pull this shit all the time and it's hard for me to understand why, say, a shitty special edition release of a movie makes the original worse or worthless.

Also, as much as I hate this reality rewriting nonsense, I don't see how it poses such a great continuity problem to other books any more than the average multi-titled character does. It's like people can accept (no matter how stupid) Mephisto rewriting existence, but only so far. Spider-man's solo books were usually pretty isolated in the first place, anyway.

People need to stop saying they're dropping mainstream comics altogether or Marvel Comics just because of this as well. It's foolish nonsense and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Just stop reading the particular book that pisses you off.

I hate to admit it, but despite all of this I'm curious to see what Brand New Day will bring considering it has Dan Slott on it. Dan Slott is one of the few writers that manages to nail the inherent silliness and wonderment of superhero comics without going into obnoxious parody. If it's just going to be re-tellings of classic Spider-man stories, I'm dropping it ASAP. Come to think of it, I'm more inclined to read it for free from a friend than pay, at least at first.

EDIT: Oh and I forgot to comment on the crassness of planting the reset button so obviously. It's so insulting to the reader's intelligence, and even worse storytelling.

Is that for real?

He also sings FEELIN GROOVY while riding a bike.
Classic spidey is back!!

I think because authors are the only ones working on it, it's easier to be the "face" for it. And believe me, some faces are more valuable than others. For instance, I'm sure it'd be, in theory easier to fuck with Ursula K. Le Guin's than J.K. Rowling's. Hell, in terms of adaptations, it is.

I do think if comics retained the most distilled elements of their characters, they wouldn't be in this mess. I don't even think fanboys would give a shit about the minutae of what's the name of Jean Grey's sister or what college Henry Pym went to. It's a lot of the status quo-changing stunts and retcons that are confusing new fans. Iron man's paralyzed. No he's not. Hal Jordan's a bad guy. No he's not. One More Day sqarely falls into that. I actually think a lot of people have been aware Spider-Man was married. Remember, it was the main focus of the comic strips. This is just going to confuse anyone new.

Of course, convoluted soapish television seems to be very popular. Hard to account for that.

I think we all underestimate the sheer majesty of JMS as a writer. he is a glorious pillar of TV writing for many years and he brings that real life interraction to Spider-Man. Most comic writers write people like, well, comics. JMS gives Peter and MJ a real sensibility that will be heartbreaking if marvel truly decides to break them up forever.

Personally, i thought that the deal with the devil was the best way to go about it, because God would never allow His plans to be unravelled. that raises the question of whether God will show up to torment Peter for subverting the divine plan. Perhaps Peter will be like Job? That seems like a powerful storyline that only the one true JMS could write.

I also hope they bring back Gwen Stacey.

You mean the Mephisto panel? Yes, that's an actual panel from OMD 4.

I'm going to assume this entire post is sarcastic. Because if not this is the stupidest thing I have read on the boards in a long time.

I don't see what was stupid about it at all. i was thinkinjg of how the story could advance in a positive way.

Quesada on how "One More Day" really didn't change anything:

I'm not believing anything he says any more. Later in the interview he talks about changing Straczynshki's "Sins of the Past" story line from Peter being the father to Norman, because he couldn't justify having Peter and Gwen have unprotected sex. So he changes the past with "One More Day" so Peter and MJ have been living in sin together for how many years?

I'm really don't think they thought this one through and now he's pulling answer out of his ass to justify his story to a pissed off audience.

I gave up on Quesada awhile ago - under his watch, the Marvel Universe has become the most depressing universe in comics (well, more depressing than usual).

Shit, Joe, why fuck with something that wasn't broken?

So that solved Spidey's identity problem as well? Why even go there in the first place? I thought there were going to be all these fantastic stories spun out of the world knowing he was Peter Parker. Were there any?

Peter Parker would not have unprotected sex, for it is not, nor has ever been in his character. We now know that Gwen Stacy had no such scruples. To think that she could have done that to Peter is apalling. Someday I hope she answers for it.

You have a great point about the writers trying to please too many people. This has lead to DC having more of a continuity mess than they ever have after "52". It is also the reason that I have given up on consuming their product. With Marvel going the same route I will probably give that up as well, which is probably a good thing, as this isn't really a medium that was ever supposed to be taken in past adolescence.

Continuity free driven books a'la All Star Superman, or a finite series like Y: The Last Man are the model that the companies should be looking to in order to keep comics viable for die hards as well as bringing in new readers.

JMS has his say about the ending.

Interesting that JMS wanted to retcon the horrible Gwen/Norman kids stuff. His change would still have been horrible but at least make a bit more sense than what Quesada an company came up with.

So..... let me get this straight, Mephisto agreed to let Aunt May live, but in return all memory of Peter and MJ being married are wiped out of existence? BUT.... they are still together as a happy (?) couple, just without the baggage of a legal document...... demons just don't make deals the way they used to.

This smacks of a "big idea" that fell apart because of fan reaction and then just turned into a waste of money for the poor fanboys who bought this.

It's sequential masturbation.

No. The fans didn't affect this story one iota. They didn't see it untl it was published. The Editors at Marvel, who were confronted with a writer who could actually do so, change his story in mid-stream. So the "fanboys," as you call them - heaven forbid there's someone out there who just reads stuff without carrying it to a fanaticism, were expecting a story written by JMS and instead got a bait and switch job. If I see any author's name on a work I usually expect that person to be the author (L. Ron Hubbard, V.C. Andrews and others excepted.) When it's not I have a right to be annoyed.

I don't use the term derogativley, but there was early buzz before the first issue was even published and the outcome was revealed quite early on and seeing as how the editorial process on these books is a living, breathing process and story changes are common in the middle of a story run, it's not beyond the realm of possiblity that the feedback had an effect on the final product.

Not that I'm the final word on the subject, but there you go.

More from JMS in the link above:

Argh.

Reading all that just reminds me what a clusterfuck this thing is. I get where both of these guys are coming from, but there's just no way around it: this retcon was very badly handled.

Well he's been consistently getting his ass kicked since he made that Ghost Rider deal ... so he probably takes his small victories where he can get 'em.

I'm just waiting for someone to suggest Franklin Richards as a possible way to retcon this, uh, retcon. 'Cause he kicked Mephisto's ass once, and stuff.

In the Marvel Universe smoking and divorce are considered to be more evil than the Devil, so his stock has plummeted a bit.

Look at the fresh and new stories that can be told now!

Somewhere, in a darkened room, Joe Quesada is hunched over that page, grunting and sweating. His right hand moving faster... faster...

I almost wish that wasn't a joke, b/c if it wasn't, I'd automatically declare it the single greatest Spider-Man issue ever published.

The Ultimate line was an attempt to bring in new readers to a continuity free Spiderman, X-Men etc. while maintaining continuity with the original titles. Ultimate Spiderman beats anything in the "original" titles. Christ they almost made the Clone saga work!

http://community.livejournal.com/sca...y/4749490.html

Watchmen + OMD controversy = Funny!

Brand New Day indeed.

Oh, yeah. MUCH better than Pete kissing MJ. Hopefully, we'll see him frech Aunt May, and then, in a crossover with the Fantastic Four, some hot Willie Lumpkin action.

I-I see everything so clearly now. OMD truly WAS great! What a fool I've been. Great job, Mr. Quesada!*

*How DOES one type the above with heavy sarcasm, by the by?

Are they killing JJJ?

Hell no, he's never felt more alive.

Well, at least some good came of this then.

Aunt May says "bling". BRAND NEW DAY!!!!

OMD is like Superboy Prime fucked Zatanna in the ass and they had a poop baby.

The "Astonishing Aunt May" backup read like one of those crappy anti-drug giveaway comics.

I love reading the Marvel editor's "forget OMD, focus on BND!" tirades on newsarama. Either they're all drinking the Quesada kool-aid, or towing the company line to keep their jobs, or both.

And normally I agree with the fact that message board poster opinions don't necessarily equate to the overall audience (be it movies, comics, etc.), but I think this is a situation where that isn't true. No one like this piece of shit story. Burn Marvel Burn!