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How much longer can the Israelis use the Holocaust card to get people to listen?

post #1 of 81
12/10/07 at 5:09pm
Thread Starter 
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...480595,00.html

Just wondering.

I got nothing against the country itself or its citizens, and I have to give them props for dealing with more racism and oppression than I could even fathom.

But seriously, the above is a perfect example of what the country's foreign ministers tend to do best...bring up the Holocaust in order to get people to fall into their line of thinking.
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post #2 of 81
12/10/07 at 5:18pm
You ever think that maybe it's because the Holocaust seriously effected millions of innocent people, and there are those out there that never wish to see that happen again, regardless of whether their reasons for bringing it up are justified?
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post #3 of 81
12/10/07 at 5:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari!
...regardless of whether their reasons for bringing it up are justified?
That, I believe, is the issue here.
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post #4 of 81
12/10/07 at 5:38pm
The people I see who are most vulnerable to an Auschwitz type situation are the so-called "illegal immigrants" in the US. The situation in the Middle East wrt Israel & Lebanon, and the waves of sentiment that spread out from that conflict are obviously complicated and highly charged. But they're also out in the open.

Not to derail the thread or anything, but the holocaust happened because people were either part of the mob or looking the other way, in denial or genuinely unconcerned. The scapegoating of so-called "illegal immigrants" is much scarier in terms of its parallels with pre-war Germany because no one seems to see its dangers. Immigrants are in the cross-hairs of this country's most desperate and angry people, and the rhetoric that gets spread around is ugly and frightening.
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post #5 of 81
12/10/07 at 5:48pm
um...what?
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post #6 of 81
12/10/07 at 5:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt
The people I see who are most vulnerable to an Auschwitz type situation are the so-called "illegal immigrants" in the US. The situation in the Middle East wrt Israel & Lebanon, and the waves of sentiment that spread out from that conflict are obviously complicated and highly charged. But they're also out in the open.

Not to derail the thread or anything, but the holocaust happened because people were either part of the mob or looking the other way, in denial or genuinely unconcerned. The scapegoating of so-called "illegal immigrants" is much scarier in terms of its parallels with pre-war Germany because no one seems to see its dangers. Immigrants are in the cross-hairs of this country's most desperate and angry people, and the rhetoric that gets spread around is ugly and frightening.
I gotta disgree with the majority of this. If illegals are indeed "in the cross-hairs of this country's most desperate and angry people" then how how hundreds of thousands of them block the streets of Los Angeles, burn US flags, etc without any sort of order being enforced?

I do, however, see a lot of similarities between illegals and the Israelis.

Us: "Hey Israel, we all know you have nuclear weapons. Why not just let us take a look and therefore not be one of the only first world countries who doesnt disclose this type of activity?"

Israel: "How dare you ask us that? Dont you remember the Holocaust? Racist!"

Us: "Hey illegals, going along with this whole 'melting pot' mentality, why dont you guys try a little bit harder to speak english, and not sue us if we decide not to start printing spanish labels on all of our goods that are sold in the southwest?"

Illegals: "How dare you ask us to attempt to learn the language that your country uses. Racist! Oh, and by the way, we're going to sue you for suggesting that."

Now, keep in mind I dont have anything against Israel (although I do have something small against illegal immigrants) but my point is that I dont really understand the constant use of the same get out of jail free card.
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post #7 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:03pm
Wow.
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post #8 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:05pm
There is exactly one historical event which is illegal to deny.
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post #9 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer
I gotta disgree with the majority of this. If illegals are indeed "in the cross-hairs of this country's most desperate and angry people" then how how hundreds of thousands of them block the streets of Los Angeles, burn US flags, etc without any sort of order being enforced?

I do, however, see a lot of similarities between illegals and the Israelis.

Us: "Hey Israel, we all know you have nuclear weapons. Why not just let us take a look and therefore not be one of the only first world countries who doesnt disclose this type of activity?"

Israel: "How dare you ask us that? Dont you remember the Holocaust? Racist!"
I don't think it's a big deal for them to keep bringing up the Holocaust. It happened in living memory and they've sort of been fighting for their survival ever since. Given how the entire fucking world turned a blind eye and deaf ear to their plight for most of the war, it seems sort of natural that they'd be a tad bit annoyed with other nations suddenly becoming interested in their defense issues.

Quote:
Us: "Hey illegals, going along with this whole 'melting pot' mentality, why dont you guys try a little bit harder to speak english, and not sue us if we decide not to start printing spanish labels on all of our goods that are sold in the southwest?"

Illegals: "How dare you ask us to attempt to learn the language that your country uses. Racist! Oh, and by the way, we're going to sue you for suggesting that."
The idea of making English the official language of the USA is probably the least American idea that I can bring to mind. The very names of our states and cities speak to our rich cultural tapestry of Dutch, English, French, and Spanish settlers and the indigenous peoples they displaced. The entire ideal of the country is that it's a compendium of world cultures. Penalizing people for coming here before learning English just seems wrong. (The French, who are way more antsy about their language, don't mind putting up signs in English either.)
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post #10 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:16pm
I think it all boils down to this:

Your question was "How much longer can the Israelis use the Holocaust card to get people to listen?"

And here's your answer-Until people actually do listen.
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post #11 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:19pm
Huh?
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post #12 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:20pm
Happy Hanukkah, everyone!

Except The Closer. I wouldn't want to offend him by reminding him of the intense suffering that Jews have had to endure throughout history by acknowledging their existence.
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post #13 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari!
I think it all boils down to this:

Your question was "How much longer can the Israelis use the Holocaust card to get people to listen?"

And here's your answer-Until people actually do listen.
haha what
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post #14 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graynadian
There is exactly one historical event which is illegal to deny.
Tis true, however nobody is denying that it happened here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Culchulian
I don't think it's a big deal for them to keep bringing up the Holocaust. It happened in living memory and they've sort of been fighting for their survival ever since. Given how the entire fucking world turned a blind eye and deaf ear to their plight for most of the war, it seems sort of natural that they'd be a tad bit annoyed with other nations suddenly becoming interested in their defense issues.
I see your point and agree to a certain extent, but does anybody else see any similarities in the above article and when they were pushing us to attack Iraq based upon their "flawless" intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by harrybeanbag
They're not all illegals. Many of the protestors may have family members who are facing scrutiny for being illegal immigrants, or they might even have that whole Latino solidarity thing going in.

Burning flags? Haven't seen that.

Also, people still have their right to protest. If the city cracked down on Latino protestors on a wide scale, it'd be a bigger shitstorm than Rodney King.
I realize they are not all illegals. You probably havent seen the burning flag images just because no major new outlet picked it up. I lift in a loft in downtown LA when this was going on, and the fuckers blocking the roads prevented me from going to work (which means I used the blocked roads as an excuse to skip work). They were busy little beavers burning flags and throwing rocks and bottles at the buildings. Those crazy protestors.

And no, I dont think we should have cracked down on the protest itself (despite how much I enjoyed seeing bottles thrown at the surrounding buildings) however my theory was that if there was some large conspiracy against illegals, that day would have been a perfect time to arrest a few of em.
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post #15 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissZooey
Happy Hanukkah, everyone!

Except The Closer. I wouldn't want to offend him by reminding him of the intense suffering that Jews have had to endure throughout history by acknowledging their existence.
I wouldnt mind at as long as you dont try and leverage it to get me to attack another nation.

But, then again, thats just me.
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post #16 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:27pm
I'm posting in too many threads today, sorry if I'm making no sense.
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post #17 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrybeanbag
And don't you fucking DARE invite him out for tacos.
I wouldn't even dream of it.
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post #18 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:30pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari!
I'm posting in too many threads today, sorry if I'm making no sense.
I was wondering what was going on.
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post #19 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer
I was wondering what was going on.
What's your excuse?
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post #20 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrybeanbag
And don't you fucking DARE invite him out for tacos.
Im partial to tamales.

In fact, my normal Sunday consists of eating tamales and lighting Jesus candles.

Dont try to suggest Im not just one big melting pot of love and tolerance.
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post #21 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari!
What's your excuse?
Blind racism, apparently.
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post #22 of 81
12/10/07 at 6:52pm
Seriously, why should we pay attention to what happened in the past? I don't want to be burdened with learning about things that already happened, I'd rather focus on making flying cars and robot butlers a reality. History is boring, the future is where it's at.
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post #23 of 81
12/10/07 at 10:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graynadian
There is exactly one historical event which is illegal to deny.
Hang on...Holocaust denial is illegal in the States? Or Canada? Since when?

If you're going to say "in any country", you may want to think again.
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post #24 of 81
12/10/07 at 11:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari!
I think it all boils down to this:

Your question was "How much longer can the Israelis use the Holocaust card to get people to listen?"

And here's your answer-Until people actually do listen.
How well has this worked out for the Native Americans?
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post #25 of 81
12/11/07 at 12:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer

Us: "Hey Israel, we all know you have nuclear weapons. Why not just let us take a look and therefore not be one of the only first world countries who doesnt disclose this type of activity?"

Israel: Um.... you gave them to us.

Us: Oh ..carry on.
Fixed
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post #26 of 81
12/11/07 at 12:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by McIrish
Fixed
True. It would be even truer, however, if the Israelis simply said:

"You know what weve got. Shit, we stole them from you after all."
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post #27 of 81
12/11/07 at 12:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer
True. It would be even truer, however, if the Israelis simply said:

"You know what weve got. Shit, we stole them from you after all."
Damn Jews, wanting to survive and all that shit!
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post #28 of 81
12/11/07 at 1:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby
Damn Jews, wanting to survive and all that shit!
Yeah, those fuckers.

Cant they come to terms with the fact that a small minority of uneducated people dont want them around?
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post #29 of 81
12/11/07 at 1:05am
Apparently they can. As long as they don't tell you about it.
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post #30 of 81
12/11/07 at 1:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer
Yeah, those fuckers.

Cant they come to terms with the fact that a small minority of uneducated people dont want them around?
"Don't want them around" as in, exterminated? Nope, I guess they don't.

And by minortity I presume you mean:

The government of Iran

The (now former) government of Iraq

The PLO
Lebanon
Syria
Eygpt
Saudi Arabia
(all surrounding Israel)
Vocal members of the press in UK France and Russia
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post #31 of 81
12/11/07 at 2:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer
Yeah, those fuckers.

Cant they come to terms with the fact that a small minority of uneducated people dont want them around?
You know, the sarcasm really isn't making you sound like less of an idiot.
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post #32 of 81
12/11/07 at 2:19am
I was thinking about this very subject the other day for some reason. Only Jews (Israelis) and the Rona can use Hilter and the Holocaust in arguements and be right about .
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post #33 of 81
12/11/07 at 2:35am
And homosexuals.
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post #34 of 81
12/11/07 at 4:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer
True. It would be even truer, however, if the Israelis simply said:

"You know what weve got. Shit, we stole them from you after all."
You know in Fight Club...when Ed Norton hits Brad Pitt with the car antenna. Pitt's reaction to that?

Yeah, that's what I just did.
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post #35 of 81
12/11/07 at 4:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
There is exactly one historical event which is illegal to deny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster
If you're going to say "in any country", you may want to think again.
???
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post #36 of 81
12/11/07 at 6:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer
True. It would be even truer, however, if the Israelis simply said:

"You know what weve got. Shit, we stole them from you after all."
Damn those Israelis for stealing US nukes! If only they hadn't played the "holocaust card" the US would have totally gone and taken them back.
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post #37 of 81
12/11/07 at 11:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage
On a side note, I was accused by some crazy retard (who I learned later on was a fervent Zionist) that I was anti-semitic because I criticized Israeli politics. This is something that I do find completely insane.
It seems like a taboo subject. Which is rediculous, in my opinion.

Quote:
And back on the subject, Israelis have good reasons to be scared that Iran would have the nuke, cause you know, they said they would exterminate them if they had the chance. So yeah, these Holocaust references are there for a reason.
Political posturing. Even Saddam, who had been saying the exact same shit for years, merely launched a few scuds when we attacked. And back then, he really had WMDs.

I just dont like the idea of the Israelis bringing this up to try and convince us to attack a nation for them. It didnt work out too well last time. It seems like most people on here, for one reason or another, disagree.
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post #38 of 81
12/11/07 at 11:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrybeanbag

^ The Closer.
Touche, sugartits.
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post #39 of 81
12/11/07 at 11:13am
Come now, as holocausts go, Nuclear Holocaust is nothing major.
It's barely even a 'caust.
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post #40 of 81
12/11/07 at 11:54am
I think this is a decent question. It does no one any great service to load a political question with so much emotional baggage it is impossible to discuss an issue in a rational manner. Sometimes, when an event like the holocaust is brought up, it's supposed to end the debate. It's like a trump card designed to keep the opposing side from continuing their point because, if they keep arguing, they're in favor of the holocaust or something. It's sort of like a Speilberg movie. Munich aint that great of a flick -- but the subject matter makes it criticism proof. I'd argue the same for Schindler's List or Big Trouble in Little China.
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post #41 of 81
12/11/07 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devildoubt
Munich aint that great of a flick.
You're wrong, and therefore AN ANTI-SEMITE!!!!!
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post #42 of 81
12/11/07 at 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage
So wrong, but you crossed the line at Big Trouble in Little China. Even the anti-semites would spit at you after the Jews are done with your corpse.
I was kidding with Big Trouble in Little China. How big of a fan could you be if you didn't notice my location or tag line under my avatar.

And I didn't say Munich was bad. It's a perfect demonstration of what the Closer was talking about (and demonstrated perfectly by Soul Ahn Ice); the movie cannot be criticized because of its subject matter. That's a problem.
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post #43 of 81
12/11/07 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devildoubt
Munich aint that great of a flick -- but the subject matter makes it criticism proof. I'd argue the same for Schindler's List or Big Trouble in Little China.
The only thing wrong with Big Trouble is there wasn't another 2000 hours of it! Damn that's a great movie! You know it won the academy award? FOR BEST MOVIE EVER!

that was all, continue with your anti-semitic rethoric.
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post #44 of 81
12/11/07 at 12:23pm
I don't think criticizing Munich has any bearing on your opinions of the subject matter, and I've discussed it with my Jewish and non-Jewish friends (some of whom weren't crazy about the movie), and never once did the conversations devolve into "Then why do you hate Jews?!" I mean, even the movie itself tries to make some statements about opening up more fair-minded debate on the matter.

This logic may work for the current conflict between Israel and Palestine, which I've encountered both sides of the debate being incredibly stubborn and unwilling to engage in any kind of meaningful debate, rather than the Holocaust which I don't think is ever used as a "card" unless someone is basically denying it which in that case, it's the truth card. Nothing wrong with that.
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post #45 of 81
12/11/07 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Ahn Ice
I don't think criticizing Munich has any bearing on your opinions of the subject matter, and I've discussed it with my Jewish and non-Jewish friends (some of whom weren't crazy about the movie), and never once did the conversations devolve into "Then why do you hate Jews?!" I mean, even the movie itself tries to make some statements about opening up more fair-minded debate on the matter.

This logic may work for the current conflict between Israel and Palestine, which I've encountered both sides of the debate being incredibly stubborn and unwilling to engage in any kind of meaningful debate, rather than the Holocaust which I don't think is ever used as a "card" unless someone is basically denying it which in that case, it's the truth card. Nothing wrong with that.
You travel in more reasonable circles than me. I was engaged to an Israeli-woman for a while -- not liking Munich was tantamount to using jewish babies blood for my bread.
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post #46 of 81
12/11/07 at 12:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devildoubt
You travel in more reasonable circles than me. I was engaged to an Israeli-woman for a while -- not liking Munich was tantamount to using jewish babies blood for my bread.
I have no doubt that people like this exist, and admittedly I may be around some very lackadaisical Jewish friends, but I mean, I can say that a documentary on any tragedy is boring without taking away my respect and acknowledgement of the awful event that it's detailing, right? Sometimes, I just don't feel like watching Schindler's List.
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post #47 of 81
12/11/07 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devildoubt
I think this is a decent question. It does no one any great service to load a political question with so much emotional baggage it is impossible to discuss an issue in a rational manner. Sometimes, when an event like the holocaust is brought up, it's supposed to end the debate. It's like a trump card designed to keep the opposing side from continuing their point because, if they keep arguing, they're in favor of the holocaust or something. It's sort of like a Speilberg movie. Munich aint that great of a flick -- but the subject matter makes it criticism proof. I'd argue the same for Schindler's List or Big Trouble in Little China.
First off, Munich is an absolutely fantastic movie, but that's neither here nor there...

I think there are constructive, meaningful ways to have conversations about Israel and Palestine, even if they include references to the Holocaust (let's not forget - it's why Israel exists). It isn't impossible to be rational about it at all. The problem arises when you have persons defending Israel who are a little too quick to call those disagreeing with them anti-Semites and when you have persons criticizing Israel who are, well, being anti-Semites. It's a delicate topic with one of the single greatest horrors of modern history at its heart - it's bound to be difficult to talk about. Introducing it by belittling an incredible tragedy that occurred within living memory really isn't the best way to get the ball rolling.
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post #48 of 81
12/11/07 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarant
I'm Israeli by birth and know very few people, including my parents, who haven't criticized Munich.
This really is a tertiary point to the discussion, but in a way it's very illuminating and illustrates the point of this thread. Anyway, I'm not suggesting that all Isrealis are similar and I don't think you can get that from my post.
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post #49 of 81
12/11/07 at 12:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devildoubt
I think this is a decent question. It does no one any great service to load a political question with so much emotional baggage it is impossible to discuss an issue in a rational manner. Sometimes, when an event like the holocaust is brought up, it's supposed to end the debate. It's like a trump card designed to keep the opposing side from continuing their point because, if they keep arguing, they're in favor of the holocaust or something. It's sort of like a Speilberg movie. Munich aint that great of a flick -- but the subject matter makes it criticism proof. I'd argue the same for Schindler's List or Big Trouble in Little China.
Wait, so you actually read my original question? Objectively?

Okay, now were getting somewhere. As much as I like getting messages from people telling me that Im an idiot and a horrible human being, this being a political discussion board I figured we could, you know, discuss.

Kudos to you, sir.

I just figured that since they already receive more than 1/3 of our entire foreign aid, maybe it wouldnt be such a great idea to continue fighting wars for them...no matter how much they suggest that our recent intelligence report is bogus.
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post #50 of 81
12/11/07 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissZooey
First off, Munich is an absolutely fantastic movie, but that's neither here nor there...

I think there are constructive, meaningful ways to have conversations about Israel and Palestine, even if they include references to the Holocaust (let's not forget - it's why Israel exists). It isn't impossible to be rational about it at all. The problem arises when you have persons defending Israel who are a little too quick to call those disagreeing with them anti-Semites and when you have persons criticizing Israel who are, well, being anti-Semites. It's a delicate topic with one of the single greatest horrors of modern history at its heart - it's bound to be difficult to talk about. Introducing it by belittling an incredible tragedy that occurred within living memory really isn't the best way to get the ball rolling.
I think that's a more artful way of framing the issue The Closer brought up. And I agree with you.

But Munich aint that great of a movie. Especially the end scene. A little on the nose, eh Steve?
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