Evil curse words destroy your virginal minds - Page 2

As for me, I do curse in front of my mom. She used to complain, but when she realized her complaints didn't make a difference she adapted. Be yourself in front of your parents or they will see you as a child forever. As for my father and grandparents, they are all dead, and don't complain.*


*This didn't happen at the same event and I was not involved in either case.

Also... all most people have really been saying on this thread is "don't do it because lots of people have thought that you shouldn't do it for a long and thus it will make them unhappy and that would be rude."

Did I miss anything? I understand what people are saying... I'm just looking for a better defense, and why the onus should be placed on the swearer and not the person complaining.

Let me try this... would you agree that if there were 9 people in a room, 5 of them were swearing (and woud be offended by being asked not to swear), 4 of them were offended by the swearing... and one of those people being offended asked one of the swearers to stop swearing... would that person then be more rude than the swearer because they are offending more people? I'm just trying to figure out where the line is drawn and what the real reasons are behind this elusive structure of ettiquette that has many arbitrary or outdated notions (in my opinion anyways).

That was referring to Elaine's post 3 pages back. It would help if I went to the last page wouldn't it?

Actually... considering where the conversation on this page has ended up... probably not.

If you are ever worried, just use the quote function, and that usually keeps things in reasonable order.

This looks like my kind of discussion considering my family and all that shit.

I've had this exact runaround with my mom a few times, and in the end, there's no good resolution for it.

Mike, you're absolutely right that there is no true ultimate rationalization for the dislike of swearing. Those words are simply offensive because they arer offensive.

But that doesn't matter, because there are a lot of people who become uncomfortable when you use those words. And while it may be inconsiderate of them to ask you to stop cursing, I seriously doubt them asking you could make you nearly as uncomfortable as you were making them.

Case in point: I'm staying with my folks for the weekend and Christmas, and tonight I accidentally said "shit." My mom made a face like I had just told her I got drunk and drove her car through Arby's. Obviously, that meant she was really fucking bothered by that word. So I won't do that again, and it's not a problem.

I think this vein of discussion is missing what is the real problem here; interestingly, Barzun has hinted at this a few times in his douchebaggery. The real problem is what those folks who want you to stop cursing are thinking when they ask the question, which is probably some variation of "He/she is going to burn in hell someday."

Take the story I just told about my mom, or that whole thing with my grandmother. When they're disappointed with my filthy language, it isn't merely because those words came out of my mouth; they see my use of those words as indicative of some deeper moral corruption. And, of course, that I'm going to hell someday.

kungfumonkeyMike to the left of me...Barzun to the right...here I am, stuck in the middle with...sane people.

Preach it, my brother!

I'm going to insert some comments, and anything "argumentative" sounding is not aimed at you, but I'm merely using your post as a springboard because I thought it was a good post.

Oh, and in reality, I would tend to agree that this is the most likely scenario... but it may not be, and I always think it is worth considering the other side. You've done a very nice thing in that you have lessened someone else's pain by increasing yours (and to which you admit was a pretty minor feat because the pain you were causing was likely much greater than the pain being caused to you).

We don't know that this is true in every (or even most) circumstances... maybe in lots of instances, it causes more pain and problems to request someone to stop swearing. How would we know when we cross that line? Regardless, while it was fantastic that Owen was the selfless one... why does it always have to be Owen? Wouldn't it be nice if his Mom was selfless at some point and realized there is no real harm being caused and could just let a random "shit" go uncommented upon every once in a while?

Exactly, I think that is a common place that quite a few peopl are coming from. So... if this is true, it isn't just being rude by attempting to stifle your speech, they are also deriding your moral (and/or religious) choices which is once again extremely condescending.

I thought the "n" word (yes, I even have trouble typing it) was dropped because it was a derogitory term used on an extremely mistreated group of people while they were being mistreated. If 90% of the population felt like it was ok to use the "n" word in reference to a black person, I would still find it offensive because I feel there are reasonably valid reasons behind it.

Also, I don't think the "n" word works here... it is offensive because it is referencing a person (or group of people) in an extremely negative manner. Saying "shit" when you hurt youself is not attacking anyone. If I stub my toe and say "bitch!", that is differently than looking at my mom and calling her a "bitch." The first example shouldn't offend anyone (in my opinion... if you think it should, I'd happily listen to a non-social conformist reason as to why), while the second example should because you are directly insulting someone. It would also be insulting to say numerous non-swear words in reference to your mom like "jerk," "whiner," "nag," etc. Those words, however, would not be shunned if overhead in a random public conversation, so I hope we can see that these are very different topics.

No, empathy is great. Once again, I'm arguing from a point of general principle, and not from one of my own personal actions. I don't swear in public (in general) because I don't want to offend people and start confrontations, and some of that comes from empathy.

I'm just saying that the person asking the swearer to stop is being selfish by making such a request. They are not being empathetic. Why can't they consider the swearer's point of view and deal with their own irrational fear/discomfort/whatever of swear words? I just find the double standard interesting.

I've always wondered about this. Where in the Bible does it tell you not to say "cunt", etc? It says "Thou shalt not take the lords name in vain." Unless Cunt, Shit and Fuck are things Christians worship, it doesn't make sense. I think it's a social more that got absorbed into religious dogma.

Wow. Go shopping for a half hour and you miss a lot...

Owen, I think your point is especially valid when referring specifically to people who know you personally. They want you to "go to heaven", and the swearing is a sign you're on the wrong highway/stairway.

For most other people, I think it does have a lot to do with how they were raised. If you were taught from a very early age that all swearing is bad (not socially unacceptable, but just plain bad), and you grow up convinced this is true, then you can become conditioned to feel uncomfortable when you hear that type of language.

Here, I'll use myself as an example: I was raised by a VERY conservative Catholic family. Swearing is not acceptable in any circumstance (I was once helping my mother hang Christmas lights on the second floor of their house when I accidentally stapled the power cord. I muttered "aw, shit" and my mom backhanded me, even though doing that while we were standing on the roof may not have been safe). Even though I swear, when I hear my younger siblings doing the same, I feel weird, due to the years of conditioning. I'm sure many of the people who feel comfortable asking others to not swear are probably experiencing similar uncomortable feelings.
This is a really great point. I honestly don't know what would be the right call in this situation. I guess it just seems easier to stop swearing so "we can all get along" rather than telling them to take a hike. I also think this is a good point:
ETA: I type too damn slow.

There is a verse that says not to use "unclean" speech, and the rationale is that those words are "unclean" because society says so. There is also the "avoid the appearance of wrongdoing" doctrine (not every Christian holds to this, I should point out), that says you shouldn't do things that may even appear to be morally wrong. For example, there was a church youth minister who was driving his car and drinking a diet Coke. One of his students saw him and thought he was drinking a beer. So to avoid another similar situation, he stopped drinking Diet Coke.

Ephesians says something about saying things that are meant to benefit other people in chapter 4 I think. It's the intentions and what the words imply more than the words themselves.

But it's a social standard regardless of what any religion says. I live in the middle of nowhere, in a small Texas town where swearing really is everything short of prohibited. I've lived around the country though and it's funny to see someplace like New York where it's the polar opposite. In fact, if you don't interrupt someone when they're talking to you in NY, they think you're not listening. I'm generalizing of course, but you get the idea.

Good points. I was actually in a similar situation, so I know what you mean. I was raised Catholic, and although I was never hit for swearing (I never swore, and my parents were strongly against physical violence of any sort), and I had this twinge in my psyche when someone swore. When I first started to swear on occasion (which was in the presence of one friend who swore, kind of as a test), it actually caused a lot of stress. I experimented and found that it even stressed me out when I swore out loud when I was alone. Annoying! That is when I started doing a little self-examination to figure out what might be going on (I was relatively young at the time). I decided it was silly to be so upset by it after giving it some thought. I also decided, though, that I didn't really want to swear. As I grew older, I found instances in which swearing seemed appropriate (mostly for comedic intent and/or shock value... i.e., lazy humor... and then eventually as a mockery of the lazy humor we had been using as teenagers... wow, meta!).

But, yeah, I'm just saying that I do understand the possible discomfort people may have. I also believe that we have to consider whether or not people should be having that discomfort, and if it is their fault they are having that discomfort.

If someone was taught swearing was bad... and never thought it about... I feel sorry for them and their lack of self-examination... and thus, I wouldn't feel as bad swearing in front of them.

Part of the way we personally evolve is by thinking things through on our own, and using some rational thought. While I like making people happy, I refuse to think that people should "play to the masses" and act differently than they normally would because people who take no time to think about why things offend them may get offended by innocuous actions.

Now... if someone got beat by their dad with a belt until they were bloody while their dad yelled, "cocksucker" then that is not their fault, and I would try VERY hard not to say cocksucker in front of them. VERY hard. Of course, I would extend the same courtesy if their dad yelled "archipelago" while beating them... so my reaction does not have to do with it being a swear word.

Uncle Cthulhu's avatar is the very definition of irony in a thread like this.

Island biogeographers make the worst fucking parents...

Sorry, I'm a wee bit lost on exactly what you are trying to posit.

I still don't think the "n" word fits into this discussion because I think it has real reasons for its "taboo" status and it is a remark whose sole intent is now to degrade blacks... i.e., it is aimed at someone.

Anything I've been discussing has revolved around swearing as commonly used and discussed in this thread (i.e., as an adjective... fucking, shitty, etc... a remark made in a moment of anger or pain... or something similar).

I haven't really thought about if my standards in this particular situation could (or should) be applied to racial slurs. If you more specically lay out how you want to use my reasons to defend that, though, I'll take a look and get back to you, though.

Unfortunately, I think I've been like this since I was in elementary school, before I took any high-falutin' philosophy classes.

If you are truly curious, though, one of my degrees is in Philosophy, but that was quite a few years ago (as you might suspect if you look at my age in my profile).

I also find it interesting that everyone else in the thread is actually debating me and seems to have absolutely no trouble understanding my points... yet you continue to make arbitrary comments about my lack of understanding and haven't added anything to the discussion in multiple posts (also, almost nobody seems to value your opinions except me... they all seem to be mocking you, and I'm at least still trying to have a reasonable conversation with you... even though it keeps getting increasingly difficult).

Ah, actually, you are wrong. Not that your thoughts or opinions are wrong, but your interpretation of mine is wrong... although it is not due to a lack of understanding on your part, but a lack of explanation on my part, so here I go!

This is a tricky situation. I'm not personally offended by the "n" word. I recognize that many other people find it highly offensive, and thus I am empathetic towards them. I think it would be fantastic if all blacks stopped finding it offensive (note: I am in no way saying that they should be able to do this)... the word would lose power, people would stop caring. Those wishing to use it offensively would stop because it would no longer offend anyone.

Additionally, I think intent is supremely important, while the word itself is not so much (I think it may be a failing on my part in not feeling comfortable typing the word "nigger" in a context in which it is not meant offensively... see, I'm trying to overcome that now).

I think if someone was explaining what the word "nigger" meant to someone else who honsetly didn't know, then they intended no harm. If someone calls me a "jerk," they intended harm. In that context, jerk (in that instance) is a more offensive word than nigger (in that instance) as far as I can tell.

Also, to pull a quote from you up above:

Well, I'll still argue for intent here. If not harm is meant, then I think no offense should be taken. If it meant to be offensive, then we are talking about a whole other issue (see calling my mom a bitch versus just saying bitch). Same goes for faggot, cunt, retard, and whatever else you can come up with.

Now, even through all of this, I never think it is bad to open up a discourse about this.

If a 14 year old boy hears his friends calling each other "faggots" when they do something stupid... he is not using the word to offend gays (and may not even realize that it could). I would think it would be good to explain the history of the word.

Even having said all of this, I still think slurs that are derogitory towards people are in a different class. There is a good historical reason that term is considered offensive, so I am ok with thinking about it in a slightly different light and being more careful with its use. As far as I know, "fuck" has not been used to single out and degrade a group of people. It means to have sex and has evolved into other numerous meaning, none of which involve a latent attack on someone. Now, if you call someone a "fuck," now you are being rude and hurtful again... but this is different than just saying "fuck" after stubbing your toe. We are back to intent again, and I'm speaking in circles and should stop typing now.

If ever I meet such a woman, I'd probably be ready to propose on the spot.

Well, after twisting my words and ignoring the debate again, I'm just about done with you. I'll try one more time to point out how you are ignoring what I am actually saying, and give you one more chance. If what follows is just another personal attack, I suppose I'll try to ignore you.

Okay... I did NOT say that. Here is my quote, and you can go up and check it if you don't believe me...

Note that I NEVER say I "meant ONLY to play devil's advocate"... instead I say I'm playing "more than a bit" of Devil's Advocate. And that I'm going a LITTLE overboard in arguing...

So, to explain what that means... I truly believe in these arguments, but I'm moving myself slightly further to that extreme in order to enhance the debate. I believe that you should always look at both extremes and test all logical possibilities (see what Phil! is doing? He is pushing what I am saying to the other extreme, and I applaud him) if you want to come up with the best possible conclusion. The other side already had many extremists (yourself included), so I just wanted to make sure this side (which I am a part of) was fairly represented.

Ok, so you said:
Originally Posted by Barzun
So your argument is that not cussing is ignorant, worthless, rude, and wasteful?

in response to what? You quoted NOTHING, so I don't even know exactly what you misread. I believe I used the words "ignorant, worthless, rude, and wastelful" only once in this quote:

I was referring to things more in the vein of what UncleC said... although not necessarily exactly what he said. It is just that the sentence you typed is not a good reason for anything. People and societies have committed numerous atrocities for long periods of time with society agreeing with or not opposing it... that doesn't make it right. It is like when you see commericals for herbal supplements or acupuncture... they often say that these "remedies" have been used for thousands of years... but guess what! Scientific testings shows no positive effect in most cases (beyond the placebo effect)... in other words, just because people have been been ignorantly doing something for years and years, doesn't mean it is right, or that it works, or that it is reasonable and should be continued.

Somehow, you translated that into me saying that NOT cussing is rude? Really??? Please show me the logic in a step-by-step manner because I am truly curious. The one thing I did say was that you could argue that it is rude to ask someone to stop cussing if it will offend them... I never talked nor implied that NOT cussing was offensive, ignorant, wasteful, and whatever else you would like to add to misquote me further.

I guess if anyone on this thread agreed with you about anything, that might hurt my feelings (and the feelings of that poor institution). If you would like to further discuss my credentials, feel free to speak with me in a personal message, as I don't feel like spewing my academic history is of much import. I don't care if you have a 5th grade education or 5 PhDs, if your points are valid and your reasoning is sound, that is all I need (and thus, I don't feel that people should be judging my opinions based on my credentials, at least not in this context, so it is all rather irrelevant).

Of course not, because then curse words would be robbed of their power. To be most effective, they should be used in moderation.

Also,
I find this extremely offensive. Please watch your language.

But seriously, language is a social contract. No one person gets to decide what is acceptable or not. We all have to live with eachother, and we all have to communicate. No one can or should be able to ban a word from a language, as long as that word contains meaning that everyone can agree on. That makes a word functional. Words like the N word are so divisive that one person can say it meaning one thing and another person will hear something entirely different, and offense can be taken where none was meant.

When that happens, words begin to lose their functionality, and so perhaps their usage should be questioned. It's hard for people to say what they want to say when they always have to define the words they're using, and constantly put them in context, just to avoid being misunderstood.

Barzun, you're interested in Buddhism, right? I'll give you a free lesson, no snark.

How others conduct themselves in public is no concern of yours. Their choice of language is not a direct affront to you, and not intended to insult you, and thus of absolutely no consequence. Even if it were designed to assail your sensibilities, the petty words of others should have no discernable impact upon your inner peace. Reaction grants a power to those words they would ordinarily not possess.

Personally, I don't care what language people are using, so long as there are no small children around.

Now, assholes who are running their goddam mouths about inconsequential bullshit in an area designed for study -- those are people who I'd like to take by the scruff, reach down their throats, tear out their assholes and wear them as pinkie rings. Fuck those people.

She usually has a stogie clenched between her teeth, a bottle of gin in one hand , and a bullwhip in the other when she's cussin' too!
Makes my heart go all pitter-pat. Yours too.

Anywho, back on topic - it really doesn't matter where you are or who you're with, but you should try and get a feel for the environment you're in and whether it's OK to swear. If you see a lot of families or kids around, or the crowd seems a bit uptight, what's the harm in taking it down a notch? Save the cussing for the ride in and when you leave.

If you're at a bar, sporting event, etc. or a situation where everyone else is being free with the language, let the "fucks" fly.

Gotta quote the learned Mr. Kilmister again - "Good manners are free - they don't cost you anything". Learn it, know it, live it.

People who value swearing enough to make a big deal out of being told not to do it tend to be lazy conversationalists. It's kind of like that David Cross quote someone mentioned earlier. It is lazy to use "fucking" as your all-purpose qualifier.

I think of it this way - swears are strong words, but they're not the only kinds of strong words. If you toss out a ten-cent word like "hegemonic" in casual conversation, you'll get weirder looks than you will with a swear. At a certain time in their individual histories, I suspect each individual vulgarity was used just as sparingly, saved for the moments when no other word would do or strictly for their shock value. Now, the offensiveness mostly comes from their monotony and the ignorance of language that leads a lot of people to rely on them as crutches (and I do this, too).

But think about it this way. If you're in a restaurant and casually using "shit" in every other sentence, you're essentially being vulgar. Yeah, that word is technically just a random exclamation at this point, but you're basically talking about excrement. If I'm trying to eat a burger, I don't want to think about shit. And, while I may be able to dissassociate the word from the object, I can't say definitively that others can or even want to - in other words, if someone thinks it's rude of me to use that word and asks me to stop, I think it's a fair request. His or her interpretation of the word is probably more intellectually honest than mine, which ignores its actual meaning.

I can't believe we've gone this long without mentioning the simple fact that if we swear too much, an evil dragon will come and kill us all. Also there will be vikings.

Here's my thing with these words: I don't understand the whole issue. I really don't. Take the word "shit" for example. Why has it been decided that this is an offensive word? It clearly isn't the concept or the meaning, as it's perfectly acceptable to say "feces" in conversation. So when and by whom was the decision made that between two words with exactly the same meaning, one is socially acceptable, and the other offensive? So, if the source of the objection doesn't lie in the word's meaning, then it's a completely arbitrary and senseless division created for no discernible reason.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I really don't give a shit what anybody finds offensive.

And that's pretty much what kungfumonkeyMike was saying all along, but you did articulate it better.

Hilariously, I brought that up to my mom one time when I was in high school. Her response was totally inane, and went something like, "If that's your conviction, then you just shouldn't use any words that mean the same thing as curse words."

I also make sailors blush.

Hey, I am a sailor and believe me, I routinely outcurse you all when I'm on missions with my crew. I use variations on "fuck" as noun, verb, subject, adjective, adverb, exclamation, greeting, and filler, just to name a few.

But that's when I'm on missions. With my crew. Fun story:

I get up in the middle of the night and knock something over in the dark. *Crash*
"Shoot!"
Wife, laughing: "I can tell you've been home from sea for a while."

There have been cursewords for thousands of years. Like types of currency, marriage rituals, or other social mores, they're subject to change and have little inherent significance. But like those other social mores, a concept of bounded language is one of the things that unifies a given culture. When we operate outside the bounds of that culture, we're "thumbing our nose at the man," and its both fun and a way of bonding within a small group. But when the use of that language bothers people, then it's considerate to operate within the bounds of the common culture and tone the language down. It's one of the ways in which we express our cultural solidarity.

And that's worth doing.

The whole point of swearing is to shock and offend people, that's why we do it. And the older generation still see it like that. Don't get me wrong after a few beers I'll swear like a trooper, but I really don't see its unreasonable in a public place for someone to object to it.

I think that's the problem. At some point, these once-shocking words became overused (probably by people intent on making a shocking impression) and they lost their ability to shock many of us.

But you're still right. Just because swears no longer shock or offend you, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't still have power - when you call someone a shithead, even in jest, you're still basically invoking the real meaning of that phrase, which is pretty insulting. When you tell someone to go fuck his mother, it may just be a colloquialism, but the actual words, if really considered, are packed with unpleasantness. Sure, context is important, but there's no conversational context for people who can overhear you being crass in public.

Random swearing-related question: What's the ruling on "cocksucker" as it relates to homophobia? Obviously, "faggot" is really offensive, "gay" not quite as offensive but still somewhat. I'm wondering where "cocksucker" falls on that scale, or whether it's wide and varied usage gives it a pass.

Speaking of offensive, mildly amusing story from my job. I have a none-too-bright coworker who thinks it's funny to refer to people as "monkeys," which he brought up at lunch one time. The school we were hosting that week was almost entirely African-American, and I had to explain to him why he shouldn't refer to anyone as "monkeys." He didn't get it until I flat out had to say "It can be considered a racial epithet." He's a nice guy and he hasn't demonstrated any racism elsewhere, but the sheer density on display was astounding.

Edit: Thanks, Eric.

It's probably all contextual to some extent, like most swears.

But like I was saying above, regardless of how wide and varied the usage is, the essential meaning of the word might be a key to determining whether someone else is justified in being offended by it.

When directed at a man, "cocksucker" suggests homosexuality, the tone with which it's used generally suggests an insult (even if you're calling your buddy that in fun), and you put those two things together, you're basically saying that someone who sucks cocks is worthy of insult - I think that qualifies as homophobia. So even if you're good-naturedly calling your straight friend a "cocksucker" in public, I don't think it would be wrong for a gay person to be a tad insulted, because the term (even when inverted in a friendly way) is basically a shot against gay activity. Then again, one gay guy saying it to another - there might be another standard there, since the likelihood is greater that both parties are literally cocksuckers.

When directed at a woman, the term is slightly different, but it still refers to a private activity (and the person speaking probably has no right to make those kinds of assumptions about the woman), and I can't think of an instance outside of dirty talk in the bedroom in which it might be used in a friendly way.

Actually, it's not socially acceptable to discuss bodily functions, body organs, etc. in public, either.

Why is it so difficult for people to be respectful of each other? We're not talking about what is ok to say in your own home. We're talking about what goes on in public. That means it's not *your* place, it's not *your* right to be offensive. I do think the standards vary between a bar at night and a children's store or religious facility, but even in a bar it's not acceptable to swear in such a way as to offend the other people. Or maybe I'm the only one who goes to bars where people are thrown out for being offensive.

You and I go to different bars, then. If the kind of profanity there isn't Gem Saloon-level or higher, they get exactly zero dollars of my money. Oh, who am I kidding? I'm 23 and I still go to college/yuppie bars.

I'm not saying that there's no swearing. I'm saying that there is a difference between non offensive swearing in the context of a bar (e.g. telling your buddy he's a fucking cocksucker for beating you at darts), and offensive swearing (e.g. calling the waitress a cunt or getting in a strangers face and calling him a fucking cocksucker); and that unrepentantly offensive people get to leave the bar under their own steam or with the assistance of the bouncer/bartender/owner.

I am totally a day late on this conversation, but I just wanted to add a couple quick thoughts.

Some people seemed to be arguing that what a group considers to be a swear word or offensive is arbitrary. Ok. That seems true. Then there is this further argument of saying that, because it's arbitrary, I am under no obligation to consider it as a moral imperative. That seems kind of wrong.

I can totally grant that society's norms and values fail a strict test of objectivity. That doesn't mean they are valueless. There is such a thing as subjective harm. There are lots of arbitrary rules that people follow all the time. We wear pants. We (hopefully) chew with our mouths closed. We try not to rub ourselves against women on the crowded subway.

You could probably make the same arguments from arbitrariness about any of those cases. It would work just as well too. You'd just be a pervert or a creep.

Your justification for being polite (or obligation to be so) doesn't require objective criteria, so whether or not cursing harms you is irrelevant. Avoid cursing around people who are uncomfortable with it, because it's the polite thing to do. If someone makes their preferences known, try to be respectful of that. I think that just follows under the general social rule of not being a dick.

Those examples have nothing to do with swearing. They're the difference between people having fun with each other, and people getting aggressive with the staff and patrons. If someone chewed out the waitress or got in the face of a customer, it wouldn't matter whether they were swearing or not. They'd still be asked to leave.