2008 Presidential Election

That debate last night, man. Just so fucking ugly.

It was looking like maybe we would have an interesting showdown. Now, it's looking more like McCain Vs. Clinton. That's so safe and vanilla it's ridiculous.

Unless they choose interesting running mates, then this might be worth getting excited about.

No more "safe and vanilla" than McCain vs. Obama.

By the way, the amount of clapping in that debate last night...after almost anything any of the candidates said. Just so annoying. Actual sheep would have been more discerning.

This is certainly a sig worthy exchange:

Now there's rumor of Ralph Nader running yet again. Give it up already, man.

Well, the Obama camp would love to hear that you think it's sig-worthy. They've been really test marketing that line for the past few days. I guess they think if they can put across the idea that Obama is being bullied, it will bring in the we-hate-bullies vote. And that is indeed a coveted slice of the population.

And Nader's fucking great. Nader's actually done the shit that both Clinton and Obama want to have done. Who cares who enters the race at this point? It's such a clusterfuck.

I wouldn't say he's being bullied but it definately seems Bill is fighting Hillary's battles, when being a presidential candidate you should be able to do so on your own.

Hell I just love the fact Limbaugh is having a meltdown due to the field of candidates on the Republican side. If anything a McCain nom would certainly tell those fools to suck it.

What is this Limbaugh meltdown of which you speak?

Not necessarily a meltdown but still something worth noting via the LA Times Politcal Blog:

There's a very good article in this week's Newsweek about this party splintering.

Interesting. And I have to commend you guys for being able to listen to him. I honestly couldn't take it anymore and after ten years I stopped listening in 2005.

So did Kerry. Unfortunately Republican cocksucks are either unable or unwilling to comprehend more than one sentence per subject, so 'I voted against it before I voted for it' is all they heard.

I was unaware Romney's position favouring torture or McCain's willingness to occupy foreign countries so long as only the local heathens are dying for it were conservative positions. Republican positions, certainly. Conservative? No.

I don't think we're attributing enough responsibility to the media here. Due to his status as an ex-president, they tend to ask Bill questions that they would not ask, say, Michelle Obama. She'd probably be inclined to make points on behalf of her husband, too, if she were continually approached to respond to statements in the way that Bill has been approached.

So many of the snide remarks last night had little to do with actual disagreements the candidates may have had on, y'know, important stuff that may actually impact Americans and a lot to do with the way that the media has been framing "Obama vs. Hillary 2008."* Obama and Clinton are not blameless in that they seem to be taking the bait whenever possible, but an awful lot of this conflict seems media-generated or, at least, media-powered.

*Please note that we're on a first-name basis with "Hillary," for some reason, and that Edwards is blatantly left overlooked, because his maleness and whiteness are less interesting and don't pull ratings. As for Kucinich, just forget about it...

Not a shock, but Thompson is out:

Thompson Drops Out

And thus concludes what I always thought of as the Wes Clark of this race.

I can't, but yeah.

Edwards was actually able to shine a little last night because the other two were firmly in the dirt.

That debate was brutal. Cheap shot piled onto cheap shot. But the Nevada caucus was the real clusterfuck. So fucking dirty.

Especially after making accusations of voter fraud and not really backing it up with facts. That was disgusting.

I didn't watch the debate, just saw clips. Who was making accusations without backing them up?

Clinton had made the claim he personally witnessed voter intimidation (Not fraud, my mistake) while walking around the casino. No complaints were filed stating this mind you, he just said it and that's it.

Just the people on the stage.

From my friend who is a mid level Obama staffer and precinct capatain, he said that the Clinton voter problems in Nevada were widespread. As in, too many problems to accurately count. And its not surprising, considering how well Obama did in the Iowa caucus.

The Bill Clinton allegation sounds like horsecrap, btw. The guy's been lying through his teeth for his wife. Honestly, why should we trust anything he says?

Not to mention what I think is something not really talked about which is just what in the hell will Bill's roll be if Hillary were to win? How are we to know that he isn't going to be the de facto Commander-In-Chief?

With all of the nasty mud slinging and "politics as usual" campaigning, what does everyone think of the likelihood of a Clinton/Obama or Obama/Clinton ticket?

You'd have a better chance of a Clinton/Obama then Obama/Clinton because if Obama were to get the nomination, he clearly needs someone with insider experience ala how Clinton picked Gore or how Reagan picked H.W. Bush. Or someone with national security crendentials which is why James Webb has been speculated.

For McCain, he could go with Huckabee or some southern governor which is why it's been speculated that the Gov of MS could be a choice.

And Voight, it wasn't so much age that was a problem with Dole's choice of Kemp (Even though that campaign was doomed unless Clinton had been caught with a dead girl or a live boy) was that Kemp wasn't going to bring anything to the ticket. He was a congressman of a district from a state (NY) that was in no way in hell going to vote Republican.

Sleaze, in Nevada? Really?

I am shocked, shocked, to find gambling going on here...

So, the crypt keeper's dropped out. Man, I loved the idea that was Fred Thompson, too bad it didn't deliver.

For the record, either way, with Obama or Clinton getting the nomination this election will be anything BUT safe and Vanilla. This is the first time in the history of the United States of America that a woman (or black man) is a serious contender for President. Stop for a second, ignore the hyperbole and realize that you are witnessing living HISTORY even if neither one of them wins.

Love the internet for labeling a woman running for president as either safe or vanilla, especially during a primary when a black man is her opponent.

No, it's only been addressed in countless editorials and news stories, and dominated pretty much every episode of Chris Matthews' show that I've watched in the past year.

It's insulting on pretty much every level, since it assumes that a woman is incapable of running the country without her husband pulling the strings. Also, it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't scan that Hillary is simultaneously the domineering, shrewish bitch painted by the right and the type of woman who will let her husband run her White House.

It has nothing to do with her being a woman. It has to do with the fact her husband was a two-term president and really liked the job. I get very irritated by the fact that any criticism made against Hillary is somehow due to her gender.

I think her gender, like it or not, certainly informs the dialogue about her. Gender is a huge issue in this country. As is race. To ignore either, or to be irritated at the mention of either, is certainly in keeping with how this country likes to deal with those subjects.

It's not the that issue is being ignored in this case it's that when a legitimate criticism is lobbied against her some will automatically assume that the criticism is made simply because she's a woman and that to me is severe broad-brushing.

Which legitimate criticisms do you have in mind? Because I think there are absolutely legitimate criticisms to be made against her (the triangulation that Pop Zeus cited in the old thread, her hawkishness in terms of Iraq, the juvenile back-and-forth she had with Obama last night), but I haven't seen anyone react to the legitimate criticisms with accusations of sexism.

Now, the one that you brought up... it's hard to say whether there's always an element of (conscious or unconscious) sexism at play when it's discussed. But it sure tends to come off that way most of the time.

I'm going to admit with a lot of shame, that I used to listen to Rush Limbaugh a long time ago. I found talk radio interesting because I was used to talk about politics in my country and I couldn't find an outlet here.

Anyways, the year I just couldn't take it anymore was during the primaries between Bush and McCain. I had already quit listening to him because his arrogance was getting worse, but when I came back I couldn't believe how deeply he hated McCain. With McCain, it seemed personal, I could swear at that time and now he hates him more than maybe even Hillary.

Out of curiosity I tuned in yesterday, oh boy. He hates McCain even more. For him, he's not a conservative at all, and he can't stand that the media just loves him. Whenever he imitates McCain's voice, he has this grating angry voice impersonation he does that just gives you a clear idea how much he hates the man.

The "ditto heads" like sheep, were desperately asking him who he was going to endorse. But he refuses to endorse anybody, all he has said is none of the remaining candidates are "true conservatives". However, McCain and Huckabee he can't support because they would try to "change" the party. He also values Rudy more because even though Rudy is pro-choice, at least he's honestly pro-choice.

He doesn't say it but his choice is the phoniest politician I've ever seen (and that's saying a lot) Mitt Romney. This is the most opportunistic guy in the universe, and at one point when running against Ted Kennedy he tried to even sound more liberal than Kennedy. It says a lot that Limbaugh would support somebody like him. Ann Coulter also endorses Romney. She excuses his past positions as saying "he fooled liberal into voting for him". Amazing.

These people don't believe in anything, they're completely devoid of any sincerity. Limbaugh hates McCain so much that he actually said he would sit out the election if that was his choice.

Double post!

Fred Thompson finally dropped out of the race today after being able to take a fucking hint. If only Guiliani would do the same. Hopefully, once he loses Florida , he'll drop out and we won't have to hear any of his insane authoritarian ramblings parsed with 9/11.

As for the Clinton vs. Obama fight, I couldn't even watch. I know who I support but it's definitely shit like that which makes people hate politics. That being said, it's a battle that needed to happen because it will pale in comparison to what the Republican attack machine will bring.

Hey, maybe Thompson can angle for FAA Director if a Republican wins the White House. Or Attorney General. I mean, he's got the experience.

Wasn't he Chief of Staff in "In the line of Fire"

This campaign will get a lot dirtier as we go along. Why? There are no significant policy differences between Hillary and Obama. So they can only go after each other by blowing up minor statements and positions, and by slinging mud. I suspect once the primaries are over things will get a lot more elevated because the Republicans will have an incredibly weak candidate compared with the Dems (yes even Hillary)

He can be Secretary of Jowls.

Mitt Romney "trying to be hip" at an MLK event;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDwwAaVmnf4

They showed another video of him telling a kid "hey you got some bling-bling, eh?"

wow

While I can imagine Clinton as President, my gut tells me Obama is probably the guy you Americans need to be in charge.

Dammit, Hocken, you're doing it again!

I agree with Matchstick's statement that her gender does inform the debate about her - while I equally dislike the fact that most people frame criticisms of her as gender-biased, a lot of the criticisms of her ARE gender-biased.

Not necessarily yours of course, Ed, but take a look at Chris Matthews who seems to be a hop, skip, and a jump from angrily screaming that she needs to take off her fucking shoes and get back in the kitchen.

And yeah, that debate was pretty nasty at times. I was almost glad for a dinner break, even though I still stuck close enough to keep an eye on it.

That debate was the point at which my mild annoyance with Clinton turned into visceral disgust. How a person can stand and come up with these platitudes about 'going to the mat' for the American public on health care is beyond me. What bothers me even more are the sheep Democrats who don't realize that her failure to push through health care reform in the 90's is in large parts responsible for the crisis we face today; and that her ingrained personality flaws, which shone through during the debate, are one of the reason for that failure.

The one thing Michael Moore's 'Sicko' did right was to show was Hillary's failure and subsequent sellout on the health care issue. If that movie wins an Oscar, I hope it will garner more attention and interest so people can at least see Clinton's hypocrisy.

Hillary speak softly, and caries a Big Willy?