Crime Fiction Thread 2.0. - Page 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Levine 

 

I loved the Mystic Arts of Erasing All Signs of Death. 

   So do I, David.  HBO actually filmed a pilot of Mystic Arts, with Huston as a producer, but it didn't get picked up, dang it.  It would have brought a lot of folks to Huston, who is a marverlous writer.  I love his Hank Thompson novels, which are probably the best examples of an everyman getting swept up into more and more extraordinary experiences as you can find.

   For you Hunter fans: sorry if I came on a bit strong earlier.  This is all subjective, I guess, anyway.  As Count Korzybski would say, there's no such thing as a good or bad book.

   Cameron: You should check out Schow's Internecine and Upgunned.   As you are a conspiracy nut like me, Internecine would be right up your alley. 

I can't wait for Django Unchained. I have nothing really to add but that. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes 

So, after re-watching Tarantino's great adaptation of Elmore Leonard's Rum Punch, Jackie Brown, I looked at the reviews included on the DVD. The one from EW is the worst and very wrong-headed, not only does he not like it, but he goes onto say Leonard is "just" a trashy genre writer and Tarantino is far superior. My blood boiled a little at that, especially after he says Tarantino's work is so inspired by Leonard (and judging by the extras on the DVD, Tarantino worships Leonard).

 

Arrgh, I shouldn't be surprised. It's Entertainment Weekly.

 

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,281411,00.html
 

Even worse, he gave Heat a B- a few years earlier.  17 years ago and the memory of that review is still burned into my brain.  Hopefully I run into that PNG one of these days,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes 

I read them, they're good. I wouldn't say I'm a nut about them, but I do enjoy a good conspiracy theory. They make for good entertainment.

 

You should really read Dirty White Boys, it's fantastic, much better than the Swagger novels.

   I'll give it a shot, only because you recommend it and say it's better than the Swagger books.  My Dad loves the Swagger books, but then he and my Mother both love all sorts of books, music and films I can't stomach.;-) lol 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subotai 

 

Even worse, he gave Heat a B- a few years earlier.  17 years ago and the memory of that review is still burned into my brain.  Hopefully I run into that PNG one of these days,

   Wow.  Heat is one of my all-time favorite films.  Neil McCauley is easily my favorite DeNiro character.

   Now the Heat starring Burt Reynolds, from the 80's, that film would be lucky to get a B-.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes 

Oh, me too. Just saying, without Leonard's influence, Tarantino's writing wouldn't be nearly as good.

   In Reservoir Dogs, anyone familiar with the Parker novels would see their influence on Tarrantino's script.  Including the various POVs and non-linear continuity.

   Wonder if Quentin is/was a reader of Westlake's or if it's a strange coincidence...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes 

PNG?

 

 

Pencil-necked geek.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave618 

 

  

   Wonder if Quentin is/was a reader of Westlake's or if it's a strange coincidence...?

Tarentino is a huge crime buff.  At least he has good taste in books.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subotai 

 

Tarentino is a huge crime buff.  At least he has good taste in books.

QT also has great taste in film. He has encyclopedic knowledge of the classics, the grindhouse, and the drive-in B's. He loves Siegel and Aldrich. And pimped ROLLING THUNDER, MR. MAJESTYK, and BLOW OUT before anyone else and it was cool. His championing led to reappraisals in geek circles, and even from critics. I love how eclectic his taste is, and how he never puts himself above even the trashiest of genre films. I would think fans of pulp crime fiction would appreciate this.

Anyway, just dropped in to say I'm starting an Elmore Leonard marathon. I checked out from the library the omnibuses of his early 70's novels - DUTCH TREAT & DOUBLE DUTCH TREAT. It's been a while since I worked my way thru his stuff, and i've never read past the early 90's. Hopefully this time I will. Favorites?

Not as knowledgeable of Elmore Leonard as I should be.  I enjoyed Cameron's recommendation Pagan Babies.  I tried a couple others a while back that didn't overly impress me. 

I agree with your assessment of QT.  He seems to be a kid at heart, and gushes more about cheaply made 70's grindhouse films than the movies serious--or should I say pretentious--directors and critics usually wax ecstatic about.  I've enjoyed all of his films.  I think I've seen all of them. 

Coincidentally, his writing partner from Pulp Fiction, Roger Avary, wrote and directed one of my favorite Crime films: Killing Zoe.  It's a dark, existentialist, heist film that is highly underrated.

I got into Leonard last year, I started with his westerns and worked my way through to his crime novels. His Detroit era is just plain brilliant, he owns that city the same way Chandler owns LA. I really liked Gold Coast, that probably has one of Leonard's most complex female characters.

I enjoy Leonard's crime novels but I actually prefer his westerns - just my thing.
 

I love both the westerns and the crime novels.

But I adore Leonard something fierce.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave618 

 

   In Reservoir Dogs, anyone familiar with the Parker novels would see their influence on Tarrantino's script.  Including the various POVs and non-linear continuity.

 

   Wonder if Quentin is/was a reader of Westlake's or if it's a strange coincidence...?

Tarantino has mentioned reading Stark, but on RESERVOIR DOGS the influence was more likely from Lionel White (Clean Break, the novel that became Kubrick's THE KILLING), who was writing non-linear, multi-perspective heist thrillers long before Westlake. If you read the original DOGS script, you'll see Tarantino even includes a dedication to White.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malmordo 

Tarantino has mentioned reading Stark, but on RESERVOIR DOGS the influence was more likely from Lionel White (Clean Break, the novel that became Kubrick's THE KILLING), who was writing non-linear, multi-perspective heist thrillers long before Westlake. If you read the original DOGS script, you'll see Tarantino even includes a dedication to White.

   Oh, cool, Malmordo, thanks for that info.  I LOVE The Killing.  The ending is one of my favorite endings of any film.  I have Clean Break and The Big Caper on my Kindle and will be getting to them shortly.

   I know Peter Rabe and W.R. Burnett were influences on Westlake, and as I am a Westlake fanatic, I have started reading them as well.  I liked Burnett's High Sierra, much more than I liked the film, but Rabe's work is really really good.  I'm making an effort now to go back and read those little-known writers from the PB original days of the 50's/60's.  There's an amazing amount of talented writing there that's virtually forgotten aside from book geeks like us. 

Not sure it's my cup of tea, but good for him.
 

I have to say, though, that these semi-contrived blockbusters are often one-offs.  This guy sounds like he's watched a lot of movies, as opposed to a guy like Van Rooy, who lived a lot of life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes 

I kinda, sorta, hate new author Roger Dobbs. He was 22 when he finished his novel Ghostman and 24 getting it published, wrote his thesis on writing a novel that's (ugh) un-putdownable and cites Lee Child (That's okay) and He Who Shall Not Be Named  (he's the most bought author in America and wrote a series that riffed its titles on nursery rhymes) as influences.

 

But Ghostman is good.

 

Jack is a professional criminal, he's been robbing banks since he was a teenager. He's very rich and very smart, knowing several languages and a master of staying off the grid and changing his identity.

 

He's another version of Jack Reacher, basically, but the interesting twist here is that he's a criminal and a bit of a sociopath. Sort of a much more ambitious Thomas Crown. It's more than a little Tarantino and I think Dobbs knows that by using the old trope of a bad guy facing a much badder guy, named The Wolf.

 

A casino robbery goes very badly in Alantic City and one robber is dead and the other is on the run, with millions of dollars in a federal payload. Jack is called in by the guy who planned it and uses blackmail/guilt(explained in flashbacks. A heist gone wrong when Jack was green) to get Jack to fix the mess and find the money before the dye pack on it explodes. He has a little less than two days.

 

It's fast and fun, but I wish it had stayed in 3rd person like the great first chapter. The first person narrative makes Jack look too impressed with himself. It's one of those books that's well-researched and the author can't help but show off, but not in a fun way like Beat The Reaper. Still, I like it. It'll be one of the most talked about books of 2013.

   Now you know I'm gonna have to check this out.  Keep these Criminal Procedural recommends comin' Cameron, 'ol buddy!;-)

Dang it, Ghostman isn't even out yet.  I saved it to my wishlist though.

So this new character, Jack, comes off as a mix of Parker, Danny Ocean, and Repairman Jack from the description I read. 

Oh, man, why am I feeling like an 11 year old girl when a Justin Bieber video comes on the tube...;-) lol

The knowledge displayed in this both intimidates and amazes me, from Cameron, Lauren and Subotai etc. I just wanted to say thank you to the people in this thread who continue to throw authors name's at me that I've never heard of (without this thread, I never would've discovered Don Winslow)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave618 

 

   Oh, cool, Malmordo, thanks for that info.  I LOVE The Killing.  The ending is one of my favorite endings of any film.  I have Clean Break and The Big Caper on my Kindle and will be getting to them shortly.

 

   I know Peter Rabe and W.R. Burnett were influences on Westlake, and as I am a Westlake fanatic, I have started reading them as well.  I liked Burnett's High Sierra, much more than I liked the film, but Rabe's work is really really good.  I'm making an effort now to go back and read those little-known writers from the PB original days of the 50's/60's.  There's an amazing amount of talented writing there that's virtually forgotten aside from book geeks like us. 

I have 12 Rabes on my Kindle but have only gotten around to reading Anatomy of a Killer, which I wasn't crazy about, but I'll definitely get to the rest ... hopefully soon.

Do you like Charles Williams? His books on Kindle came down in price on Cyber Monday, so I picked up a lot of the titles. I'm a huge fan of Dead Calm -- it's white-knuckle stuff, the Philip Noyce movie never really captured the book's suspense. I also loved Williams' relatively laid-back The Long Saturday Night. 

To be honest, I couldn't give a hoot about crime writers after the 1970s, with the exception of some who started in the late-50s/early60s (Westlake, Leonard, Willeford, Garfield, and Block when he's on). So most of the posts you'll see from me are about the golden age greats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malmordo 

I have 12 Rabes on my Kindle but have only gotten around to reading Anatomy of a Killer, which I wasn't crazy about, but I'll definitely get to the rest ... hopefully soon.

 

Do you like Charles Williams? His books on Kindle came down in price on Cyber Monday, so I picked up a lot of the titles. I'm a huge fan of Dead Calm -- it's white-knuckle stuff, the Philip Noyce movie never really captured the book's suspense. I also loved Williams' relatively laid-back The Long Saturday Night. 

 

To be honest, I couldn't give a hoot about crime writers after the 1970s, with the exception of some who started in the late-50s/early60s (Westlake, Leonard, Willeford, Garfield, and Block when he's on). So most of the posts you'll see from me are about the golden age greats.

   Williams is on my to-read list, Malmordo.  I have about 4 or 5 Rabes on my Kindle.  I have The Box, A Murder in Naples,  A Shroud for Jesso, Murder Me For Nickels...a couple others, I think.   I don't have Anatomy, but I want to get my hands on some of Rabe's Daniel Port books, which were a clear influence on Westlake.  Daniel Port may have been one of the first criminals that was the protagonist of a series of novels.  Well, after Fu Manchu, I guess.

   I love David Goodis' The Burglar.  My favorite Jim Thompsons are The Grifters and The Getaway ( I liked both adaptations but the novel is a masterpiece and both movies leave out the book's gruesome ending) I have some stuff by Horace McCoy, Lionel White, W.R. Burnett, and a little known writer named Clifton Adams.  He wrote a book called Whom Gods Destroy that I thought was quite good.  It's the ultimate "get revenge on the girl you had a huge crush on in High School who never gave you the time of day" novel. 

   Lots of Dan Marlowe.  I love his Earl Drake character.  Marlowe's best Drake books were The Name of the Game is Death and One Endless Hour.  Excellent stuff. 

   And all this stuff is available on Kindle, most for under 3 bucks.

   I agree that the writers of the 50's and 60's were, on whole, much better than the writers working today, but there are some current writers who knock my socks off.  They're just few and far between.   And you usually have to search them out.  I don't know if you've noticed, but the reading public usually has pretty bad taste.  The fact that the new Alex Cross movie and the Jack Reacher film are highly anticipated is ample evidence. (Again: no insult meant to the fans of those books here; just stating my opinion).

I was talking with some friends about this the other day.  I think unfortunately what you see in crime you also see paralleled in the fantasy and science fiction genres - writers who become successful but  lack discipline, become self-indulgent, and their works are more and more filled with bloat. 

Writers in the 1950s and 60s wrote with economy, and I also think they had the advantage of growing up and living in a time where people were by virtue of society's mores spent more time amongst one another (unless you were a minority, of course), where you generally did military service and expanded your horizons.  It made you a better writer.  They were influenced by what they had read in the genre as teenagers, Poe or Hammett or whomever, but they also studied the classics.  When you dig deep in interviews and read what authors the greats read and loved it's not folks on the B&N top 10 list.  Block's favourite writer? John O'Hara.  David Morrell? Henry James.  I once read that Mickey Spillane of all people could quote Shelley for hours.  The current crop of crime writers, some of them are as bad as the fantasy writers who were inspired by Tolkien (who did writer with economy).  They stick to the field, and it hamstrings them.  I can tell just by reading a book flap if a book by a new author will be a cliche or not - but Westlake could write a hundred books about armed robbers, and none of them would be a cliche.

I will say a couple of things about the current generation of writers, though.  There are gems out there in the genre, but they tend to be, I find, authors who could flourish in any genre.  Mitchell Smith can write crime, science fiction, horror, whatever.   

Another thing is we now have great books coming from people who would have been marginalized in the 50s and 60s - women and minorities.   
 

Yeah and I remember Elmore Leonard talking about southern and English gothic literature in one interview, and it's amazing how many references Charles Willeford got into his writing.

Hmmm.  I'll have to give Mitchell Smith a try.  Thanks Subotai.

If you do give him a go, Stone City was recently put up in the Kindle bookstore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subotai 

The current crop of crime writers, some of them are as bad as the fantasy writers who were inspired by Tolkien (who did writer with economy).  They stick to the field, and it hamstrings them.  I can tell just by reading a book flap if a book by a new author will be a cliche or not - but Westlake could write a hundred books about armed robbers, and none of them would be a cliche.

 

Completely agree. A lot of what I've seen from the newer crime fiction writers (especially Charles Ardai) are highly derivative, pastiches essentially. And my feeling is, with so many great writers that I haven't read who basically invented this stuff, why would I waste my time with the copycats?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subotai 

If you do give him a go, Stone City was recently put up in the Kindle bookstore.

   Yeah, I downloaded Stone City about an hour ago to my Kindle.  Looks good.  Sacrafice looks good as well, but unfortunately not available for Kindle yet.

I noticed Hard Case Crime put out two Crime/Mystery novels by writers largely associated with Fantasy/Sci-Fi.  The Dead Man's Brother by Roger Zelazny and Blood on the Mink by Robert Silverberg.

Haven't read the Silverberg but I really liked the Zelazny.  He was such a good writer he could have probably written convincingly in any genre.  His son, Trent, is a writer as well, and I liked his heist novel, To Sleep Gently, quite a bit.

I love Zelazny, will have to check that out. 

Zelazny's one of my favorite writers period. ADORE HIM.

My favorite Zelazny is Isle of the Dead, followed closely by Lord of Light and This Immortal. 

Declan Burke's Best of 2012 list.

I've read maybe half of these, and I'm as glad to see what's not on there as on.  Not all crime.  Like Burke, I love sports novels and The Art of Fielding is my favourite book from the past year; but not surprised to see the sublime Adrian McKinty up there, and a couple of others whose works we won't see until the new year (or you're a lucky devil who gets ARCs, like Cameron!).
 

So I'm half way through 8 Million Ways to Die and loving it so far. It's my first Scudder book, mostly cos getting a hold of anything written by Lawrence Block down here is a fucking bitch. Thank god for the kindle store. The book does such a great job of communicating what a drag being a PI really is. At this point in most crime novels you'd at least be feeling the edges of some twisted conspiracy, yet here all he does is talk to people and talk to people and talk to people and... nothing. Pretty much exactly as I imagine 99% of all investigating to be.

Anyway, there are quite a few Scudder novels and I know that the quality ranges, so anyone mind making a list of the other ones that are worth reading?

Hmm.  That's a hard question.  If I dig a writer/character combination, I tend to think even the lesser offerings contain gems. 

Did anyone else find the killer in Hope to Die and Flowers kind of hokey and out of place in the Scudder series? Starting Hard Stuff soon, and hope it's half as good as the other flashback book, Ginmill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes 

They're all good and worth reading in order because Matt/New York changes. My favorites in italics

 

• The Sins of the Fathers (1976)...Buy this book ...Kindle it!
• Time To Murder And Create (1977; written second but published third)...Buy this book...Kindle it!
• In The Midst Of Death (1976; written third but published second) ...Buy this book...Kindle it!
• A Stab in the Dark (1981)...Buy this book ...Kindle it!
• Eight Million Ways to Die (1982) .. Buy this book ...Kindle it!
• When the Sacred Ginmill Closes (1986).. Buy this book ...Kindle it!
• Out on the Cutting Edge (1989) .. Buy this book...Kindle it!
• A Ticket to the Boneyard (1990) .. Buy this book...Kindle it!
• A Dance at the Slaughterhouse (1991).. Buy this book ...Kindle it!
• A Walk Among the Tombstones (1992).. Buy this book ...Kindle it!
• The Devil Knows You're Dead (1993)(A classic of the 90's era).. Buy this book ...Kindle it!
• A Long Line of Dead Men (1994).. Buy this book ...Kindle it!
• Even the Wicked (1997).. Buy this book ...Kindle it!
• Everybody Dies (1998)...Buy this book ...Kindle it!
• Hope To Die (2001). Buy this book...Kindle it!
• All the Flowers are Dying (2005)...Buy this book ...Kindle it!
• A Drop of the Hard Stuff (2011).. Buy this book.. Kindle it!

Thanks Cam! Yeah, I'm sure they're all worth reading but since the books are pretty expensive down here, figured I'd prefer to not shell out for the ones that are merely OK.