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Batman Returns

post #1 of 198
Thread Starter 
As many of you know, I misguidedly rank this as my favourite of the Batman films in terms of pure cinema, but in terms of a Batman film it's pretty naff.

What that means is that I respect it more as a Tim Burton movie than I do as an adaption of the Batman comics, largely because Batman isn't in it and most other elements have been warped to cater towards Burton's mindset.

I'm not a particular fan of Burton, but I find that this is one of his more tolerable films largely because the grand scale of what is happening shifts the viewpoint away from his ever popular 'artistic soul shunned by the world' paradigm.

It's exceptionally messy, but it's also exceptionally fun largely because it's like Burton's discovered a new toybox and is just throwing around as much stuff as he can. You get the feeling that he didn't have too much creative control in Batman and the result is a pretty anarchic sequel at times (I still reckon the Circus Gang has elements of what Burton wanted to do with the Joker, because it's an odd sort of fit for his stately version of the Penguin).

It's interesting that the most magnetic character in the entire film is a completely new creation. Walken's Max Shreck just dominates every scene he's in, partly because it's Christopher Walken and partly because he's the only character with a perceivable streak of clear villainy. The Penguin is villainous, but there's too much humanity in him at times, Catwoman is an ambivalent anti-hero and as such Shreck becomes the big villain of the piece despite the fact he never really does anything which you would normally associate with grand villainy (aside from bumping off Selina Kyle).

I'm pretty sure I'm going to be alone on this, but any other fans of this much maligned film?
post #2 of 198
I'm a big fan of catwoman, but I think that's where it ends.
post #3 of 198
I'm with you on this (and I'm sure you'll find its not an unpopular film around here). As a Batman film it sucks, the characters weren't quite accurate (a symptom noticed in the first film) and the movie doesn't seem to take place in Gotham as much as it does TimBurtonland. Outside of that the film is a lot of fun and funny.
post #4 of 198
I figure this was the movie that set the stage to have massive statues of naked men doing things all over the city in the next two movies.
post #5 of 198
I love this film, Spike. You are far from being alone on this. Once Pee-Wee and his wife toss 'lil Penguin into the river and Elfman's amazing score starts off, I'm always hooked. The film is a blast, the performances are fantastic, and it scared the hell out of me when I saw it in theaters as a kid. My favorite of the pre-Batman Begins films.
post #6 of 198
Ditto
I saw it in theaters when i was 9 years old. Scared the living shit out of me.
post #7 of 198
I saw it in theaters when I was 8. I was not scared of it, because I was not a big dripping pussy.
post #8 of 198
Jesus christ man, he was 9. You can't expect a kid to be all John Wayne and shit. I mean at 9, the guy on the Taster's Choice jar wigged me out from time to time.
post #9 of 198
I remember being a bit disturbed at the Penguin fondling that girls breast.


But, TimBurtonland, I think that sums up the look quite well. It's almost as if the entire city of Gotham only takes up about 10,000 square feet. Most of that being held up by naked giant statues.
post #10 of 198
Weren't the naked statues in Schumaherland ?
And they are great to ride on.
post #11 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
I saw it in theaters when I was 8. I was not scared of it, because I was not a big dripping pussy.
Dude, my parents wouldn't let me watch Terminator 2 alone when I was a kid. My mom had to sit with me and fast forward through all the gory scenes. I had a horrible childhood when it came to violent films, they were all but banned in my house.

So back to your post, yes, I was a huge, wet, sloppy, leaky pussy when it came to films that were even a little dark. I had no tolerance built up for such things.
post #12 of 198
The one scene I never forget from this movie is when they do the take where Keaton takes the cowl off and he's not wearing the eye makeup. It just stands out so much that it takes you out of what is supposed to be a dramatic moment - making you wonder how long Batman spends in front of his vanity mirror.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy Jankis View Post
I'm a big fan of catwoman, but I think that's where it ends.
Pfieffer was really the memorable performance of this film for me. If I catch it on tv, it bits and pieces slowly come back to me, but her take (especially the voice) are really etched in my mind.

I'd actually like to see Nolan's take on catwoman in part 3, just because it would surely be a choice that many didn't immediately think of right away, similar to Ledger & Eckhart. It would be fun to see a different variation on the crazy that Pfieffer brought to the role - a compare/contrast situation like the one between Nicholson & Ledger...
post #13 of 198
I'll admit that I was a little scared by the raptors in JURASSIC PARK when I was 9. Did I ever look away? Fuck no.

But what is scary about BATMAN RETURNS? The Penguin? Hell no. I remember taking some black icing from my Pittsburgh Penguins birthday cake and rubbed it on my teeth so I could do a hilarious Penguin impression.

If anything, it's the atmosphere. The Shreck cat logo, killer clowns, nosebite, and Paul Reubens.

This man takes the taco:
post #14 of 198
I never knew the flick was hated. I always ranked this as the no. 2 Batman movie ahead of Begins because it gave you villains with meaning and gave you a beautiful score. The big duck freaked me out as a kid. And even though Batman himself wasn't really in the flick, he had his major moments. Phiffer's Catwoman still ranks as the all time best and the winter theme really makes it seem at time more classical than its meat.
post #15 of 198
Thread Starter 
I love that Max Shreck is a living breathing homage to 1920s German Cinema.
post #16 of 198
I was scared of Teen Wolf when I was nine, so that must make me king of the childhood pussies...

In the past, I've always been bothered by the pure illogic of Batman Returns. For one thing he never went anywhere between movies, so the title makes no sense. And let's not even talk about the giant fucking Bat-signal that points directly into the Wayne Manor library. Talk about conspicuous... What if he'd had company over?

But the older I get, the less I give a crap about movies making logical sense. The movie is a little too precious for its own good at times (The neon "Hello There" becoming "Hell Here"? Gimme a break...), but there's too much to love for me to hold its flaws against it.
post #17 of 198
Thread Starter 
It's not a particularly literal movie though, it works on an almost mythic level, with character traits exaggerated to the point of being almost ridiculous. I mean look at the first shot of Bruce Wayne, he's just sat in the dark, waiting for shit to go down so he can bat up and beat people down.
post #18 of 198
And make evil clowns explode!
post #19 of 198
For the record, my parents were pretty protective. I had to watch T2 over a friend's house, had my uncle take us to see dark stuff like BATMAN and the ADDAMS FAMILY movies. So despite their attempts to shelter me, I was still that kid that would be sitting in church flipping through the psalmbook looking for songs that have words like "hell" and "Satan" in them. I hit the jackpot if I came across "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen."
post #20 of 198
BATMAN RETURNS is still my favorite Batman film. I especially like the fact that Tim Burton managed to make a modern Expressionist film and attached it to a big franchise blockbuster.

Screw the idea that it's not a Batman film. It's not a comic book accurate Penguin or Catwoman film, but it's most decidedly a Batman film as both characters, and Schreck, have been warped to be dark, fractured reflections of Batman, the orphan freak, the costumed avenger, and the billionaire philanthropist. And the fact that they all try to kill each other at various times is part of the fun and says something about the character.

Walken, DeVito, and especially Pfeiffer are great. Pfeiffer and Keaton have genuine chemistry. And the film is gorgeous to look at. I like the fact that it's a superhero film with actual weather. (I also think people make too much of Gotham as fantasy land too. The main set is just a slightly exagerrated Rockefeller Plaza.)

I won't argue that much of the plot is a mess and takes quite a few leaps in logic. That's true. But the final confrontations strike me as character driven payoffs to everything that's happened before.
post #21 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin View Post
Screw the idea that it's not a Batman film. It's not a comic book accurate Penguin or Catwoman film, but it's most decidedly a Batman film as both characters, and Schreck, have been warped to be dark, fractured reflections of Batman, the orphan freak, the costumed avenger, and the billionaire philanthropist. And the fact that they all try to kill each other at various times is part of the fun and says something about the character.
I mention this every time the subject of the film comes up. It's the primary reason I hold this film on such a pedestal even to this day: Burton made an artsy, psychological, expressionistic Batman film. It's a combination of ideas and psychology that nobody's even attempted to do with the character*, or comic book films in general. While it's not the best Batman film (Mask of the Phantasm, and don't you ever forget it), it is the best flat out Film with a capital F in the series.



*Unless you're Ang Lee.
post #22 of 198
I wasn't hooked to any Batman canon, so I loved the Burton Overload on this film.
post #23 of 198
When I was 9, I saw ALIEN in the theater and loved every fucking second of it. So yes, you young'uns are pussies.

The following year THE SHINING scared the piss out of me, but c'mon, it's THE SHINING.

I love BATMAN RETURNS for all of the reasons Spike listed. I think of it as a really fun Elseworld's version of Batman. It's also my yearly Christmas film.
post #24 of 198
I think it's pretty interesting that Tim Burton's best film (apart from, maybe, Ed Wood) is a sequel to a superhero movie.
post #25 of 198
Big Fish is a sequel to a superhero movie?
post #26 of 198
I don't hate Big Fish like a lot of folks around here, but it's far from Burton's best.

Also, Batman Returns is fucking great.
post #27 of 198
Once again, Spike, you're on my wavelength here. This is easily my favorite Batman film, and probably my second favorite Burton, following closely behind Edward Scissorhands. (Or maybe Ed Wood. I haven't decided). And actually, I think that it very much fits into his ouvre, concerning as it does the plight of a bunch of freaks who have no real place in normal society. It's a dark, psychological, mean-spirited, action-light story with a downer ending. It took balls to follow up the first film with something like that.

I do reject the notion that it doesn't work as a Batman film, though. Too many people who call themselves fans of the character are actually only familiar with a narrow slice of his history, and what they mean is that the film doesn't march in step with the O'Neill/Adams/Miller interpretations that now dominate the public perception of him. Batman has been around for seventy years, and he's seen a lot of reinventions and reinterpretations. Try reading the silly, clownish stuff from the sixties. Taken in that context, Burton's version is as valid as anyone else's. Make that "versions". Burton's two Batman movies are actually pretty different animals.
post #28 of 198
Christopher Walken's son in this is perfect. By far my favorite part.
post #29 of 198
Burton's typically clumsy narrative kills it for me. Great production design and half-baked themes about the alienated outsider aren't enough.
post #30 of 198
Big Fish, for me, is the film that capitalizes on Burton's sense of whimsy the most successfully. A case could be made for Scissorhands doing this as well, but the adult themes in Big Fish speak more to me than the teenage-angst themes of Scissorhands. Big Fish has Burton's strengths serving the story, unlike many of his other films in which his style seems grafted ONTO (and detracting from) the story.

Batman Returns is my favorite of his Batman movies, to be sure.
post #31 of 198
I love the ideas behind the film, but not so much the execution. I agree with what's been said about Burton making this an expressionistic BATMAN film, but while that's a boom dramatically, I think it's also a handicap. It feels like a bunch of brushstrokes which fail to make a coherent whole. I certainly admire what's attempted, but at the same time it's never worked for me.

I also really, really can't stand DeVito and Pfeiffer in their roles. Particularly DeVito, who obviously attended the Bobcat Goldthwait School of Bird Calls. It's impossibly grating.

One huge positive in my mind is Elfman's gorgeous score, which to me is much better than the original. The scene where Penguin dies and the birds push his body into the water is one of the most moving cues of Elfman's career.
post #32 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Banks is my hero View Post
One huge positive in my mind is Elfman's gorgeous score, which to me is much better than the original. The scene where Penguin dies and the birds push his body into the water is one of the most moving cues of Elfman's career.
One of my all-time favorite score tracks there, along with Descent Into Mystery from the first one. All in all, though, this score buries his work on Batman. There's so much more going on in it.
post #33 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Burton's typically clumsy narrative kills it for me. Great production design and half-baked themes about the alienated outsider aren't enough.
I've learned to overlook Burton's lack of facility with story, though, to allow me to enjoy what he does bring to the table. Just like I don't watch Clerks for visual interest, I don't walk into a Tim Burton movie to be impressed by plot. Filmmakers who do everything well are a rare breed.
post #34 of 198
It's a big, jumbled mess of a movie and I love it.

It's pretty easy to look past it's faults when it has so many cool characters and whimsical Burtonish moments in it.

I mostly love it for Pfieffers cat woman, that has to be the best role she's ever played. She's such a badass, sexy character too, and her creation story is so cool. When I was little I was totally fascinated by the scene where she's lying in the alley and the cats are crawling all over her and eating her, then when she goes back to her apartment and drinks cat milk and trashes the place, I thought that was awesomely crazy. "Honey I'm home... Oh I forgot. I'm not married."

The Penguin is pretty brilliant too, Devito was the most perfect actor they could have found for the role, and his creation story and character arc were also really amazing. There's something so iconic and creepy about that opening scene where his parents throw him in the river and he floats into the sewer. The juxtaposition of his essential humanity and desire to join the surface world and his monstrous, depraved nature was really touching and sad.

I think it is probably my favourite Batman movie besides Batman Begins, it's far from perfect but with so many redeeming qualities I'm not going to complain.
post #35 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David
I've learned to overlook Burton's lack of facility with story, though, to allow me to enjoy what he does bring to the table. Just like I don't watch Clerks for visual interest, I don't walk into a Tim Burton movie to be impressed by plot. Filmmakers who do everything well are a rare breed.
Well, maybe, but at least Smith is responsible for his stories, for better or worse - Burton's always working off someone else's script, and seems to have his narratives unravel quite often, which I find curious.

As that's Burton's chief deficit, how does your giving him a pass on narrative coherence affect your enjoyment of his other films? For example, if I could have overlooked Planet of the Apes' story problems, I might have liked it.
post #36 of 198
Thread Starter 
What I love is that (as everyone has pointed out) it's the film which confronts the nature of Batman in the most head on manner. Both the Penguin and Shreck are mirrors to Batman. The Penguin is a man who looks like a beast and desperately yearns for humanity whilst Batman is man who dresses like a beast to try and detach himself from his humanity, to become an icon. Shreck is the antithesis of Wayne in that he fought for his money and lusts for it greedily, corporate power gone mad.

I thought it was interesting that Max and Penguin were originally written as Brothers, it makes a lot of sense in terms of their relationship.
post #37 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Ripoll View Post
Christopher Walken's son in this is perfect. By far my favorite part.
I got the same vibe from him as I did the cross dressing laser ball player from The Fifth Element.
post #38 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Well, maybe, but at least Smith is responsible for his stories, for better or worse - Burton's always working off someone else's script, and seems to have his narratives unravel quite often, which I find curious.

As that's Burton's chief deficit, how does your giving him a pass on narrative coherence affect your enjoyment of his other films? For example, if I could have overlooked Planet of the Apes' story problems, I might have liked it.
The problem with Planet of the Apes was that Burton came into it so late. While he does work from other people's scripts, he is known for working closely with the writers to shape the story into something that matches his sensibilities. Because he came into Apes well into preproduction, he didn't get that chance, and it just became a matter of shooting the movie. He did bring some nice visual flair to it, but it's not much of a Burton movie. The elements of it that work at all do so almost independently of his influence.
post #39 of 198
Who was set to direct PotA before Burton hopped on board? I didn't know that, but it explains a bit.
post #40 of 198
I'm not sure anyone else was in the seat so close to starting. I was following that remake pretty extensively, and I just don't recall. I think EVERYONE on the film came to it late (it was rushed into production after languishing forever).

It was an Arnold/Cameron project for a while, but, say, 1996 or so.
post #41 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin View Post
Screw the idea that it's not a Batman film. It's not a comic book accurate Penguin or Catwoman film, but it's most decidedly a Batman film as both characters, and Schreck, have been warped to be dark, fractured reflections of Batman, the orphan freak, the costumed avenger, and the billionaire philanthropist. And the fact that they all try to kill each other at various times is part of the fun and says something about the character.
Yep. Love this gaudy, yet mythic, carnival funshow-mirror POV of my favorite character.


I can do a so-so Walken impersonation, but instead of riffing on something as trite as his PULP FICTION monologue, I only use:

"Ms Kyle... How in-DUSTRIOUS. How... didyouGETinto... protected FILES... MAY I ASK?"
post #42 of 198
I thought Max's son Chip did a better Walken impersonation than Walken.

Dad go save yuhself
DAD GO!
post #43 of 198
This is my favourite Batman movie of all. Michelle Pfeiffer plays a great Catwoman. Nice visuals and Score.

Especially liked in the "Face to Face" song in the Ballroom Party scene.
post #44 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by scudd View Post
I got the same vibe from him as I did the cross dressing laser ball player from The Fifth Element.
THAT WAS HIM!?

Awesome.

EDIT: I love the manic glee that Keaton has behind the mask every once in a while. That little smile he gives a henchman right before the bomb explodes. It's probably because I grew up with these two movies, but I've always loved the way the bottom half of Keaton's face looked in the cowl.

EDIT2: And I've always hated that moment when he takes off his mask in front of Selena and Max. They cut to a shot of him without the black make-up around his eyes and it bugs the hell out of me. Couldn't they have found a better way to shoot around that!?
post #45 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadew1 View Post
I thought Max's son Chip did a better Walken impersonation than Walken.

Dad go save yuhself
DAD GO!
Andrew Bryniarski, who grew up to play remake Leatherface.
post #46 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Andrew Bryniarski, who grew up to play remake Leatherface.
and Zangief in Street Fighter. Yep.
post #47 of 198
This is one of those movies I don't like as much as I want to, but like more than I probably should.

I like the claustrophobic shittiness of Burton's sets. Makes the movies feel more like opera, which they basically are. But the TimBurtonland complaints are valid. He wants to be gothic, but is always too silly and crass and American to work properly. That aerial shot through the model of the zoo with the "lalalala" on the soundtrack is awful.

DeVito is almost unbearable as the Penguin. He isn't subtle enough, which is a weird charge in a movie like this.

But there's an amazing part where he expertly flips a tub of sex lotion into the air with one hand and catches it in the other - amazing, because he's wearing fingerless mittens and is in the middle of a long dialogue take. Bravo Danny!

But is this the most Christopherwalkeniest movie ever made? I vote yes!

"Who woulda thought. She had a brain ta damage? Bottom line: she tries ta blackmail me again. I drop her out a higher window. In da meantime. I GOT BIGGER FISH. TA FRY!" (adjusts bowtie and leaves)
post #48 of 198
I'm with a fair few others in this thread- it doesn;t feel like any other version of Batman out there, but it's my favourite film with the character, and one of the best Burtons.
Wonderful as Walken and Pfeiffer are, though, I have to say Devito's penguin is what really makes it for me. He has a really unique mix of sympathy and pantomime villain.
post #49 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul McCartney View Post
DeVito is almost unbearable as the Penguin. He isn't subtle enough, which is a weird charge in a movie like this.
It could be worse. His nose could have been gushing blood.
post #50 of 198
Walken's fate made me scream like a girl.

(oh, and I happen to like Big Fish)
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