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Batman Returns - Page 4

post #151 of 198
2/8/08 at 8:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin View Post
Thanks to Mythbusters I can point out that Selina Kyle surviving the fall because she fell through a series of canopies is plausible. And that she was merely unconscious and any resurrection can be interpreted as more symbolic than actual.
Oh, so according to the Myth Busters the cats merely bring her back to a consciousness, along with passing along some nifty super powers, a craving for milk and a completely new personality huh? Yeah that's makes about a ton more sense and makes me love the move so much. Thanks!
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post #152 of 198
2/8/08 at 8:40pm
Well, somebody completely missing the point is a benchmark of a symbolic interaction, so I suppose Isildur's post proved EvilTwin's interpretation as accurate.
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post #153 of 198
2/8/08 at 8:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isildur's Bangs View Post
Oh, so according to the Myth Busters the cats merely bring her back to a consciousness, along with passing along some nifty super powers, a craving for milk and a completely new personality huh? Yeah that's makes about a ton more sense and makes me love the move so much. Thanks!
I think the fall's more responsible for the weirdness:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_stress_reaction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-tr...tress_disorder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_personality


And let's not forget: http://www.animaltherapy.net/


But seriously, if you recognize that some logic is "Comic Book Logic" and know anything about German Expressionism and Irrealism in literature at that time (Murnau, Kafka, etc) and Burton's modern spin (and not just in aesthetics), it won't hurt your brain so much:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_K...interpretation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrealism_%28the_arts%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_expressionism
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post #154 of 198
2/8/08 at 9:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isildur's Bangs View Post
Oh, so according to the Myth Busters the cats merely bring her back to a consciousness, along with passing along some nifty super powers, a craving for milk and a completely new personality huh? Yeah that's makes about a ton more sense and makes me love the move so much. Thanks!
It's a good thing the Joker's origin makes so much sense. It would be a shame if you had to suspend disbelief to get behind that character.
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post #155 of 198
2/8/08 at 9:54pm
Well, I'm not a fan of how Burton handled that character's origin either.

My problem with Catwoman's origin doesn't have so much to do with her "resurrection", whether it's symbolic or not, as it has to do with her going from nerdy secretary to femme fatale with no real explanation.

At least Schumacher introduced us to Pamela Isley the Botanist before turning her into Poison Ivy. Granted all of those scenes, and the complete film they take place in, completely suck ass. But at least there's a precedence to believe that chick was really into plants.
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post #156 of 198
2/8/08 at 10:16pm
I'm sorry, but have you even seen Batman Returns? It's set up early on that Kyle has a thing for cats. Edit: Preferring Poison Ivy's B&R origin to Catwoman's is just wrong-headed, considering that it's a total rehash of what happened to Selina in Batman Returns.
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post #157 of 198
2/8/08 at 10:27pm
There's precedence in Returns leading one to believe that Selina Kyle's got a perverse, long-suppressed dark side when she's not a nerdy secretary, just like there's DEFINITELY precedence leading one to believe a wise-cracking homicidal maniac's within Jack Napier's exterior as well.

We'll continue this fool's argument when there's precedence leading to a botanist who's been cooped up in a South American shithole cooking up plant-based toxins plausibly coming out of the other side of her trauma as an Amazonian hippie sexpot
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post #158 of 198
2/8/08 at 10:28pm
Thread Starter 
She electro shocks the clown goon whilst he's prone and gets a kick out of it, that establishes an inhibited character trait which is brought to the surface after her fall.
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post #159 of 198
2/8/08 at 10:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post
There's precedence in Returns leading one to believe that Selina Kyle's got a perverse, long-suppressed dark side when she's not a nerdy secretary, just like there's DEFINITELY precedence leading one to believe a wise-cracking homicidal maniac's within Jack Napier's exterior as well.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/precedence
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post #160 of 198
2/16/08 at 5:21am
I just watched this again tonight. Yep. Still awesome. Leaving aside any gripes about fealty to source material (like I give a shit), this movie works for me on an emotional level that no other Batman film has reached. I understand these characters. I like them. Christian Bale's Bruce Wayne is an interesting take, and I like it intellectually, but I can't really say that I feel for the guy.
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post #161 of 198
2/16/08 at 8:31am
I watched it again a couple of nights ago as well. I like to think of this film as Lewis Carrol meets Batman. As Greg noted above, the only parts of the film that are rooted in any sort of logic are the emotional states of the characters. The rest of the film falls fully into the realm of fantasy nonsense. And I think that is where a lot of people's problems with the film lie. Absurdist logic and playful humor mixed with a dark, twisted sensibility not only inform the look and tone of the film, but also the ideas and concepts within it. It also applies to the dialogue which infuses playfulness with a bizarre sense of wordplay and a snappy cadence that matches the increased sense of energy and momentum missing from the what I always felt was a rather lethargic first film.

A penguin man and circus crime gangs in the sewer, a radio controlled, rocket equipped penguin army, a character being resurrected by cats, completely random and at times comical inventions that show up out of nowhere...this is Gotham through the looking glass.
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post #162 of 198
2/16/08 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isildur's Bangs View Post
My problem with Catwoman's origin doesn't have so much to do with her "resurrection", whether it's symbolic or not, as it has to do with her going from nerdy secretary to femme fatale with no real explanation.
Catwoman is the Mr. Hyde to Selena's Dr. Jekyll. That's why she's set up not just as some random woman, but as a prudish asexual secretary who lets herself get walked over by everybody - Catwoman's polar opposite.

It's not just right, it's freakin' perfect.
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post #163 of 198
2/16/08 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarant View Post
Catwoman is the Mr. Hyde to Selena's Dr. Jekyll. That's why she's set up not just as some random woman, but as a prudish asexual secretary who lets herself get walked over by everybody - Catwoman's polar opposite.

It's not just right, it's freakin' perfect.
Agree 100%. A suppressed woman can be wilder in bed than a wannabe popstar ever will be. They are animals I tell ya!
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post #164 of 198
2/16/08 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueharvester View Post
Agree 100%. A suppressed woman can be wilder in bed than a wannabe popstar ever will be. They are animals I tell ya!
Freaky in the head, freaky in the bed! Me-OW!
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post #165 of 198
2/16/08 at 6:49pm
Wait, we're arguing that Catwoman's origin is a bit of a stretch, but the gentleman raised by penguins in the very same movie gets a pass?
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post #166 of 198
2/16/08 at 7:08pm
Well, see Bradley, they weren't just any penguins. They were sewer penguins. So...yeah.
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post #167 of 198
2/17/08 at 1:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
Well, see Bradley, they weren't just any penguins. They were sewer penguins. So...yeah.
Sewer, rocket wielding, military penguins.
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post #168 of 198
2/17/08 at 8:29pm
Oh, I mentioned those too.

EDIT: What Amphibatron said is truth.
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post #169 of 198
2/18/08 at 5:19pm
Well, in all fairness, the penguins lived in the sewer next to the abandoned zoo, so really it all makes perfect sense.
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post #170 of 198
2/18/08 at 6:02pm
Hush, Aqua. I prefer my sewer-dwelling rocket penguins militant, organized, and entirely arbitrary.
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post #171 of 198
2/18/08 at 6:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isildur's Bangs View Post
Then why so much trouble reconciling the surreal quality of it? If you recognize it as such? It's Burton. It's ELSEWORLDS. It's a trippy "through the looking glass" interpretation. You may not like the style of the interpretation, but you can't expect the carnival to make sense, atleast not in a conscious way.
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post #172 of 198
2/19/08 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Then why so much trouble reconciling the surreal quality of it? If you recognize it as such? It's Burton. It's ELSEWORLDS. It's a trippy "through the looking glass" interpretation. You may not like the style of the interpretation, but you can't expect the carnival to make sense, atleast not in a conscious way.
This is actually one of the few things I like about the film. It's so "out there", it's okay to go along for the ride.
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post #173 of 198
2/23/08 at 1:34pm
Yeah, I can only really enjoy this film on an Elseworlds kind of level personally - but on that level its a random, bizarre hoot.

I don't even really think of it as a Batman film in the traditional sense, more Tim Burton having massive fun with a huge tentpole budget but dear god at least it was enthralling and entertaining unlike the two installments that followed it.
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post #174 of 198
2/23/08 at 4:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Then why so much trouble reconciling the surreal quality of it? If you recognize it as such? It's Burton. It's ELSEWORLDS. It's a trippy "through the looking glass" interpretation. You may not like the style of the interpretation, but you can't expect the carnival to make sense, atleast not in a conscious way.
That's exactly what I don't like about it though. This sort of thing could work so very well for any other comic book property, but Batman has always felt more rooted in reality to me. At least when he's not a fucking vampire, or fighting aliens or, you know...
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post #175 of 198
2/23/08 at 6:03pm
Every single time I watch this film, I'm amazed that Warner Bros. let it go past pre-production intact. With the toyline and such, the series is obviously targeting, at least in part, families and you can't really make a more psychologically fucked up movie for kids than this. (In the first film, the only really element that could rub a kid the wrong way is the murder of his parents but if you know anything at all about the character, you come in expecting that.) The film opens up with a couple parents throwing a kid away because they don't like the way he looks, then the kid grows up and devises a plan for rocket propelled penquins and clowns to kidnap kids in their sleep for the sole purpose of murdering them. The entire freaking movie is an orgy of childhood phobias.
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post #176 of 198
2/23/08 at 11:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
...and you can't really make a more psychologically fucked up movie for kids than this. (In the first film, the only really element that could rub a kid the wrong way is the murder of his parents but if you know anything at all about the character, you come in expecting that.) The film opens up with a couple parents throwing a kid away because they don't like the way he looks, then the kid grows up and devises a plan for rocket propelled penquins and clowns to kidnap kids in their sleep for the sole purpose of murdering them. The entire freaking movie is an orgy of childhood phobias.
You need to do 2 things:

1. Read the original Grimm's Fairy Tales for some perspective.

and

2. Realize that these flicks are Rated PG-13.

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post #177 of 198
2/28/08 at 4:49am
Batman Returns is a pretty solid movie. I'm definitely in the minority here saying that I like the first film more, but I like both.
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post #178 of 198
2/29/08 at 2:09am
You might be in the minority right here, but maybe not among the general public. A lot of people (critics included) didn't take too well to Batman Returns. I remember a lot of griping at the time about how ugly and mean-spirited it was.
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post #179 of 198
2/29/08 at 2:14am
Yeah, the general consensus is still that the first is better, even here on CHUD. I'm amazed so much support came out of the woodwork for Returns.
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post #180 of 198
2/29/08 at 2:54am
Yeah, the first one is definitely a favorite of the general public. Not too long ago, I saw a poll that asked people what the best three movies of the 80s were. The results: Raiders, E.T. and Batman.
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post #181 of 198
2/29/08 at 3:09am
But what about it's third act? no?...nothing??

This is where the older Batman films stop for me, I don't view Batman: Forever anymore..and to be honest I've never seen Batman & Robin all the way through.
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post #182 of 198
2/29/08 at 3:18am
It wasn't so long ago that some Batman Forever fans came out of hiding as well. Micah loves it, as I recall.

"Hey Two Face! show me how you punch a guy!"
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post #183 of 198
2/29/08 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Venkman View Post
But what about it's third act? no?...nothing??
I'm not crazy about the third act and the reconciliation of the child napping and rocket equipped penguin plotlines, but I like the confrontations with Penguin, Catwoman, and Shreck quite a bit.
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post #184 of 198
2/29/08 at 2:33pm
I was just making a lame joke..anyways..the film I really did enjoy and I just wished that Burton would have done Batman:Forever, or what ever it would have been called. Funny enough I loved Forever when it first came out, but then I got older and my taste in film has gotten far better.

The back story behind Returns is a nice one, Burton hated many parts of the first Batman so he wanted to make a film that was completely different then the first Which I respect and he pulled off really well.
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post #185 of 198
2/29/08 at 5:35pm
This thread officially became stranger than the movie when people began to argue the merits of rocket-firing penguins.

If only Burton would make a movie about this thread ... that would kick ass.
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post #186 of 198
2/29/08 at 5:44pm
Well, how would you deploy your candy cane striped rockets?
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post #187 of 198
2/29/08 at 6:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron View Post
Well, how would you deploy your candy cane striped rockets?
Heralded out of a Terry Gilliam animated angelic arse?
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post #188 of 198
2/29/08 at 10:48pm
Late to the party, but I love this movie as well. I love it's tone, characters, dialogue, dark Christmas setting, and the balls that go behind it all. Pretty much what everyone else said.

Two of my favorite parts;

-Elfman's moody cue when Batman is spying on the Penguin as he goes through the stacks of birth certificates.

-Penguin's circus army cart-wheeling away into the darkness. Bizarre yet awesome.
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post #189 of 198
3/1/08 at 5:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Hexum View Post
-Elfman's moody cue when Batman is spying on the Penguin as he goes through the stacks of birth certificates.
We've mentioned the score in general, but yeah, that particular piece is a great, moody bit of work.
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post #190 of 198
3/1/08 at 5:57am
No one's mentioned the programmable batarang. I can buy rocket penguins and scratchable CD's but the programmable batarang just goes too far.

Jesus, there's cops outside my apartment building right now and I actually heard them say "Come out with your hands up!" In real life! They actually say that!

If Batman was here with his programmable batarang this wouldn't be a problem.
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post #191 of 198
12/6/09 at 7:32pm
Thread Starter 
Man that first proper shot of Catwoman, after she's beaten the shit out of that rapist, is possibly the most beautiful shot of a person Burton's ever filmed. There's something about the use of colour and the angle and the composition which is just breathtaking. Then again the entire film is absolutely beautifully shot and way funnier than I remember. I love Walken and DeVito's work together, but Walken's brief work with Keaton is amazing as well.
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post #192 of 198
12/6/09 at 7:38pm
Thread Starter 
Also, you know what this film has. Batman actually learning stuff and reacting accordingly. Take for example his two encounters with Catwoman where he completely changes up his style on his second encounter.

I also love how the Mayor keeps thinking that the Penguin has come for him and keeps getting pushed aside, love the bit right at the end at the party where he looks really dejected that the Penguin wants Chip rather than him.
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post #193 of 198
12/6/09 at 7:54pm
I've just been given the quadrilogy by my brother on BD and plan to revisit the first two films in HD and burn the others.

Still, the first two were pretty great looking films. It's certainly Burton's forte.
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post #194 of 198
12/6/09 at 7:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
I've just been given the quadrilogy by my brother on BD and plan to revisit the first two films in HD and burn the others.

Still, the first two were pretty great looking films. It's certainly Burton's forte.
The design aspects of Returns, everything from the clown gang, to the Penguins underground layer, to the child snatching train are just amazingly designed. I also love that Batman has his own branded stationary in this film.
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post #195 of 198
12/6/09 at 8:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isildur's Bangs View Post
Well, I'm not a fan of how Burton handled that character's origin either.

My problem with Catwoman's origin doesn't have so much to do with her "resurrection", whether it's symbolic or not, as it has to do with her going from nerdy secretary to femme fatale with no real explanation.

At least Schumacher introduced us to Pamela Isley the Botanist before turning her into Poison Ivy. Granted all of those scenes, and the complete film they take place in, completely suck ass. But at least there's a precedence to believe that chick was really into plants.
Wtf. This is stupid.
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post #196 of 198
12/6/09 at 8:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post
Also, you know what this film has. Batman actually learning stuff and reacting accordingly. Take for example his two encounters with Catwoman where he completely changes up his style on his second encounter.

I also love how the Mayor keeps thinking that the Penguin has come for in and keeps getting pushed aside, love the bit right at the end at the party where he looks really dejected that the Penguin wants Chip rather than him.
"Eat floor. High fiber." Hahahaha.

Your point about the Mayor made me laugh. Poor dude...

The first Batman was a major movie of my childhood, but Returns is my favorite of the super-stylized Batman movies between 89 and 97. Pretty much because of all the reasons you pointed out already. I could care less about the plot as it's not really all that interesting. But the characters and the Burton's ridiculous uncompromised vision make it a treat to behold.
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post #197 of 198
12/6/09 at 8:52pm
While the stylization and setting really raise the bar for the film, I just wouldn't consider this my favorite comic book film if it weren't for the story and character interactions. I mean, the whole idea of having Penguin run for mayor as our hero tries to stop him is just such a breath of fresh air when compared to the more run-of-the-mill stories we get with comic book films these days (Iron Man!).

If anything, I was disappointed that the film never resolved the issue that Batman had become Gotham's public enemy after "murdering" that one girl.
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post #198 of 198
12/7/09 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac View Post
If anything, I was disappointed that the film never resolved the issue that Batman had become Gotham's public enemy after "murdering" that one girl.
The people of Gotham have short term memories. There can only be one public enemy at a time so once Penguin made his speech "I played this stinkin city like a harp from hell" he was their new public enemy.
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