Batman Returns - Page 2

I think the problem people have with it is that it doesn't jibe with ANY known versions of the Batman character up to that point. Burton's first film captured the original Bob Kane version of the character, but RETURNS? It's really just Burton's phantasmagorical and fetishistic interperatation. And hey, I love it for that.

Thought this was interesting. Carry on.

It's as if Burton put an Elseworlds Batman up on the big screen and the majority was dumbfounded that it didn't resemble the 60's TV show at all.

Most of that was nonsense from the tabloids in the wake of the first Batman being the biggest movie ever. Madonna, Cher, DeNiro as Penguin, Robin Williams as Riddler.

Burton's brain is its own ELSEWORLD. Maybe DC can assign it a number.

I love it unconditionally, and it's my favorite comic book film, Burton film, and Batman film. I never understand this dumb statement that comes up online without fail ..."it's a decent movie, but as a Batman movie it sucks"....


what?


1. It is a good movie.
2. It IS a Batman movie.
3. As a Batman movie, it's a good Batman movie.

Nerds...

Say wha?!

No, YOU'RE THE NERD!!!

HA! IN YOUR FACE!!!!!

I would like to mention how much I love the scene where Walken and Keaton are having an in-depth conversation, and suddenly Walken says, "Yawn" and walks away.

Concurred. I also love "Bruce. Shame on you." exchange from the boardroom scene. It's like a battle of quirky actor delivery.

See call me old fashioned, but the thing I always like about my Batman films is the character of Batman and his rogue gallery done well and not over-appropriated by a director who should probably be making his own film and not a Batman film.

So for me - until July anyway - there are only two Batman films.

I love this movie to death. TO DEATH. It's one of my all time favorites, not just favorite Batman or comic book adaption etc, but one of my top 10. I love everything about it, the look, the theatrics, the performances, the weirdness, the penguins, it's unbridled Burton back when that concept was interesting.
I think it's also got the best and cleverest script of any of the Batflix; Dan Waters screenplay doesn't get the love it deserves, almost everything Walken says is hilarious. The "Visionary Alliance" gag is one of my all time favorite hollywood in-jokes.

Holy shit....did anyone just have the BRILLIANT idea that Nolan needs to rescue the sonofabitch from B-movie hell, and have him playing Mr. Freeze?

Freeze is way to over the top a character for Nolans Batman universe. Id be keen to see a take on the Riddler; with so much of the Dark Knights ad campaign being conducted virally online, I could see a reboot of the character that embraced the net as a forum for his "riddles".
The online marketing for a film with him in it could practically collapse in on itself.

Exactly. That said, there's definitely ways to do it (there's certainly a disease allegory in there deal with a guy who's lost his wife, can't survive outside of a sub-zero suit, and can never have true physical contact with another human being ever again), and I'm certain nothing Nolan and Co would come up with would even remotely resemble the Schumacher Atrocity.

All cheesy youtube tribute videos aside, Returns has always been the Batman movie I get the most enjoyment out of. I haven't seen it in quite some time, but I instantly liked it more than than the first one when I saw it in the theater as an almost-teen. The circus antics and bombast of the "duck" scene always get me a little giddy. It's Tim Burton doing Tim Burton - insane fucking Tim Burton. Shit, if I wasn't at work right now I'd put it in right now!

Yeah, I don't get it either. Lloyd would make a much better Freeze (circa Judge Doom).

Still my favorite Batman movie and one of the best Burton flicks. I still wish he'd reach deep down in his mind and pull one of these freaky things out again.

Agreed. I just love this flick to death, except one little scene: Danny sitting in that toy car, humping around.

Ugh.

Not trying to be a dick, but genuinely curious - how old were you guys when you saw Batman Returns for the first time?

Sixteen. A mere 3 years after my summer of '89 epiphany.

I was six, which might add to the love but....

Batman '89 was my all-time fav movie until 13. I've seen it several times since then and it gets harder to watch everytime. The most recent viewing was last summer and it had to watch over the course of three days. It's not a movie that's aged well for me.

Returns, however, might be a piss-poor Batman movie but it STILL works perfectly to me as a bizarre, psycho-sexual superhero drama. I completely understand why some might hate the shit out of it, but it still works for me (unlike the original).

Nine.

Eight.

Eleven I think.

11. And a half.

Probably 11 or 12.

When the first Batman came out, there were actual interviews and articles that claimed he was pulling his inspiration from The Dark Knight Returns and The Killing Joke. It was all about telling viewers it wouldn't be silly like the Adam West show, and those two titles came up a lot. I guess it was easier than saying "hey, there was a writers' strike, and this Beetlejuice guy...we don't know what he's doing, frankly." Batman came out, and it was nothing like what was being pimped to us by the marketing machine.

So then I think when Batman Returns came out, a lot of us who wondered where the hell was all the Miller/Moore influence we were promised thought that THIS film was going to deliver it all. Instead we got black-bile oozing Penguin and a Selina Kyle brought back to life by cats' breath, falling into a dumptruck of kitty litter, and the CD turntable mixin' & scratchin' of Bruce Wayne. It was a shock.

So maybe not going into it clean, and not having it be the version I grew up with kept me from watching it with any kid of objectivity. I DID want to like it in 1992; I was bummed that I didn't. All those wacky Burton-esque touches you guys are loving just make me cringe.

I was 14.

What's wrong with the penguin bile?

It's a black gooey representation of Burton's own disinterest in his source material.

So, I'm the old man here. I was 24.

Old enough to remember that what Miller was doing was decried as not being particularly faithful by purists. Old enough to remember that Catwoman had never been consistently characterized over the years. Old enough to remember that Penguin was really only fondly remembered out of nostalgia rather than being an interesting character in 1992, with a couple of exceptions like "The Malay Penguin" and his role in Suicide Squad. Old enough to remember the comics consciously aping Miller's DKR and pushing the limits of violence in the late 80s.

Sorry, but I get that title. I was 28. I think it's safe to say that our enjoyment of the film doesn't come from childhood nostalgia.

Phil, it sounds to me like the film was defeated more by what you wanted it to be than what it is. Yes, you wanted to like it, but that's because you wanted it to emulate something you already liked. You didn't want to like it on its own terms.

I remember all the stuff you're talking about. Unlike a lot of Batman fans of the time, though, I wasn't married to the idea that Miller's Batman should be the template for every Batman project ever until the end of time. I'm open to a variety of interpretations. Hell, I still love the Adam West series. Maybe having grown up with that and reading some of the O'Neill/Adams work of the seventies made me a little more flexible about the character. But I really think that Burton's Gotham is as valid an entry as anyone else's. Anyone who claims to have a definitive handle on what Batman's world is supposed to be is overreaching their grasp. Batman and Robin have traveled to outer space and stopped alien overlords from invading the earth. Those stories aren't wrong, they're just a different interpretation of what the character is supposed to be. I don't happen to enjoy that era, and I certainly wouldn't want a movie about it, but it's not invalid.

I just don't like it very much. It's got some great moments, but unlike the first Batman, they don't really equal a great whole for me. Michelle Pffeifer though, that's what I call a great hole.

I'm sorry, I'll leave the thread now.

I'll one-up you. I was 29. And I agree the rest of your post.

Yeah, but Batman doesn't use a gun end of story.

I gave it a shot, though.

And I'd correct you on the "defeated more by what you wanted it to be than what it is" line just a bit - I wanted it to be what I was told by the film's marketing it would be. (Hey, I was 21.) I LOVE the Adam West series, and I enjoy many of the different comic book interpretations. Burton's just always seemed disinterested in the source material at a very basic level.

And I'll add that I enjoyed myself at the time, but revisiting the film over the years, I just don't see any of the magic you guys are taking away. I think it's a bit of a mess, a Burton-esque design yard sale.

I was six. I don't think I saw it in the theater, but I caught it on TV in a hotel room and was really weirded out by it.

Now, I enjoy it but it's not a Batman movie. It's just a fun villian movie.

One of the things that I like about BR is that appeals to me as a movie fan and as a Batman fan. The movie plays up allusions to Lon Chaney's PHANTOM OF THE OPERA, especially in the sewer design, and contains a very direct homage to the Bal Masque sequence, right down to Tim Burton dressing as the Red Death. I see visual resemblances between the Penguin and Chaney's character in LONDON AFTER MIDNIGHT. And, of course, Max Shreck.

The fact that Burton smuggled an Expressionist film in the guise of a big budget, comic book blockbuster took enormous guts on his part.

Is Batman in it?

It's a Batman movie. Live with it.

I guess I was about 6. I wasn't scared, just bored. You really need to focus to enjoy this lumbering mess.

As for the "non-Batman" stuff: I agree that there's no one true Batman, but, in my heart of hearts...

You know that scene where Batman goes to rescue the kids from the train? And then it cuts away just as he's about to do it? That's frustrating. When Burton does throw you scraps - like the brief wrestle between Batman & Penguin, which is exactly what you want to see in a Batman movie - you're almost pathetically grateful.

I enjoy the flimsy cardboard gravestones DeVito knocks into in the graveyard. Goof, or homage to Burton's beloved Ed Wood shit? We may never know!

It's hardly a Batman movie... it's way too mean-spirited.

See earlier post.

It's true! Cause Batman stories never go down such a dark, depressing, masochistic ro--oh, wait...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Killing_Joke

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_Beyond:_Return_of_the_Joker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Halloween

Batman Returns is better than at least two of those links. Just saying!

Okay, here's where I'm getting at. Yes, it's a Batman movie, if you go by the definition that since Batman is in the film it must be considered a Batman movie.

My gripe in the movie is that it isn't ABOUT Batman/Bruce Wayne. He really does take a backseat in this film. It's like the antagonists become the protagonists and the protagonist become the antagonist.

It's a weird switch up.

We spend so much time with the villians, the movie only becomes interesting in the sense you want to find out what they do next.

Batman does absolutely no detecting. Instead of trying to find Penguin and Catwoman and his group, he decides to just wait for something bad to happen. Or maybe he was trying to find them... who knows, we never spend any time with him to find out.

And it's quite possible for the story to be equally as dark as it was, and somewhat heroic. I don't see any heroics in that film.

So that would make The Killing Joke not a Batman comic, since it spends a great deal of its time on The Joker's backstory. And there's precious little detecting going on in The Dark Knight Returns, which would make that also not a Batman comic.

As I said, different interpretations. To think that you have a lock on what a Batman story is supposed to be is pure hubris.