Flee Tibet!

The nation we refer to as China is clearly a Han empire.

Having said that, isolation doesn't work, so engagement is our only option. Nevertheless, the question remains: how much of engagement is cooperation, and how much is pushing back?

It's a sad thing indeed.

But I don't think we can do much to overly help the situation. China is far too powerful politically and financially to oppose right now. Realpolitik, I mean.

I dont think there is even a remote chance that the USA, or actually the EU or whoever else is able to get out of a saber-rattling contest with China economically intact.
Due to outsourcing, and the simple fact that the money in China isnt all in the hands of private people or companies but could be used to cause a major economic "war", you really cant do all that much without thoroughly damaging your own economy.
And right now, its not like the stock markets could survive yet another crisis.

The father of my girlfriend calls this Chinas "nuclear option", to basically run a full-scale economic war, since the west has given them a lot of tools for that.

This will be the first Olympics that I have personally boycotted in my life and that may have something to dow ith one of my first and most lasting memories of being awoken to world events and politics was Tiananmen Square in 89. The mob in charge who did that are the same mob in power now but thanks to them being big players economically on the world stage all the condemnations that used to come thick and fast have lateyl been muted at best. Suddenly 'engagement' is the best option with these assholes because theres money to be made.

North Korea? No money there, fuck 'em theyre evil.

China? Oooh, lets just tiptoe round Tibet, the gulags, their treatment of Falun Gong, enforced aboprtions and sterilisations, the bankrolling of the Sudanese genocide etc, etc, etc - if we continue to try and make money with them, surely they'll decide to behave themselves (because it's worked so well so far)

Good old realpolitic hypocrasy - fuck it and the Chinese Government.

The more things change, the more they stay the same...
'89


'08


Personally, if I'd been Spielberg, I'd have sited quite a few things that piss me off about the regime in China long before I got to Darfur...

I love the Chinese's government main reason behind invading Tibet is that an old treaty signed long ago gave them Tibet, and so they're just enforcing their sovereignty. At least, that's the shitty propaganda they're giving their citizens.

China's nuclear option is a bit of a joke, if they envoked it we'd simply not pay them and China would go belly up if we stopped paying them. The down side to their form of government and billions of people to feed. They need us just as much as we need them.

This tibet thing is horrid on many scales. Hopefully, we at least threaten to boycot the olympics in protest.

Engagement has been the policy since the Nixon administration. There's no 'suddenly' about it.

Absolutely Frank, our government recognised China about the same time, but that doesn't negate my point that as far as making the Chinese government behave in a more ethical way to its own people, its been a stunning failure.

All its done is made lots of people rich.

Wait, this is why all of a sudden I can't watch Youtube? I'm in Shanghai and I've been trying to watch Obama's speech.

I submit that China is less evil now than it was in 1972. While still brutally oppressive in many areas, the central government understands the importance of the rule of law and economic liberalization.

But let's say I'm wrong. What do you think would make for a better China policy?

Well I wouldn't have given them the Olympics just as my starter for ten.

I think economic sanctions based on the proviso of human rights standards being met would be a good start myself.

Sure, let China become an economic powerhouse, but make it predicated on becoming a more responsible country in the treatment of its own citizens.

I don't think it's for the US to let China become an economic powerhouse, or to set terms for it so doing. China is an economic powerhouse and will continue to grow regardless of US policy. The question is whether to allow that inevitability to occur in opposition to US objectives, or whether to work for ways to align it.

It's funny I have a Chinese co-worker that sometimes sort of defends the government in ways that I find surprising.

For example, he says in China the "firewall" thing is not a big deal. According to him, what people really care about is having money in their pockets and food in their bellies.

He even said some of the Tiananmen square protesters did it only for the publicity! I wonder if that is a prevailing view or just this guy.

That seems to be a pretty prevelant attitude if the Chinese blogosphere is anything to go by. The reaction by the average Chinese to whats happening in Tibet seems to be that "we gave them culture and civilisationa nd now they're shitting on us for it".

I don't know whether its because theyve got such a highly controlled media that they only see what the powers-that-be want them to, or whether its a prevailing attitude to 'the savages' in the same way that many in the British Empire used to view the peoples they subjugated but many mainstream Chinese seem to be onboard with the party line the government touts as a general rule.

I guess when you're other option is to ddissent then get arrested no fucking wonder.

and Frank: I see what you're saying completely, but for China to continue to grow it needs vast resources and mineral waelth - much of which is coming from my own country. We in the west do have sway on how quickly or not China can grow, but everyones too busy getting wealthy to dare use that as any kind of bargaining chip to make China respect human rights and freedom of speech any more than they already do.

...and I say again, they have absolutely no business hosting the Olympic Games.

The guy I'm talking about lives in the US, he is also in the process of becoming a US resident along his wife and child, so he's not afraid of reprisals.

It seems to me that in China, the vast majority of people simply agree with the government on a lot of these issues. Now that I remember, he did mention Tibet, don't remember quite what was his opinion on that but the "savages" thing does sound a bit familiar.

Again this is a guy in the US, for quite a few years, so it seems this stuff is very well ingrained in their culture.

I've been living in Shanghai, teaching English since February, and I can tell you right now that the general public is very reluctant to discuss government policy and are pretty much clueless about their nation's recent history unless they lived it (i.e. The Great Leap Forward, The Cultural Revolution etc).

These are people that are reluctant to raise their hands when I take roll call at the beginning of class, let alone raise questions about their government. It is a culture where no one wants to think for themselves, and where everyone wants to pass responsibility on toward someone higher in the food chain.

Hey Judd, a fellow Chewer in Shanghai? I'm the mini-Shanghai nearby, Wuxi (无锡) doing the same. I've been here for about 2 years.

Here's a link to the same topic on an Asian American forum. A lot of the posters seem to hold the same view as your co-worker.

Tibet Protests Against China Turn Deadly

I used to live right outside Boston's Chinatown, and they'd constantly be staging marches protesting our government's collaboration with the Chinese government.

I don't see what cause the U.S. has to take the side of the Dahli Lama or the Chineese government. I am no expert on the situation but I don't see how it effects us either way. Correct me if I am wrong but as I understand it, China by some means took over Tibet, and now the monks want it back ? Well at one point a similar situation happened here involving whites and Indians. And I am sure our government would be offended if another government demanded we give the Indians Ohio back. I would personaly be pissed if we boycotted the Olympics over this.

Jesus thats the kind of real politik, self-interested viewpoint thats let the Chinese government and so many other dictatorial regimes get away with their shit for as long as they have.

Would it bother you more if there was mineral wealth to be gained by invading the place???

It DOESN'T 'effect you either way', neither did Apartheid in South Africa and neither did Germanys invading of Poland, but at some point nations that purport to support freedom and human rights need to stand up and point out when a government is behaving in an evil fashion.

Otherwise why purport to support those ideals at all?

Actually I really just enjoy the Olympics. Okay I am all for the monks getting their country back. More power to them. America in the past has shown support for a free Tibet. Clinton, if I remember right, even had the Dahli Lama kicking it at the white house. But as of right now Tibet is part of China. Sucks but not much else we can do about it. Our country supports dictatorships and evil regimes all the time. It would almost seem hypocritical for us to challenge their occupation of Tibet.

And once again correct me if I am wrong but when the Dahli class was in control of Tibet did'nt they activley support and participat in slavery and tourture? So activists who support the Dahli Lama are not actually calling for a " Free Tibet " They are calling for Tibet to be freed from China and to put back under rule of the Dahli class. Just doesnt seem to make much sense to me. Well at least not enough to get me fired up enough to say fuck the Olympics.

The Chinese governement pisses me off like no other. Committing atrocities right in their own land, not to mention whatever else they have their hands in in other parts of the world. I know it doesn't mean shit, but I'm not watching a single second of the Olympics.

Sonic, the Chineese government pisses me off as well, but no more than my own government and the artrocities that we have our hand in. The Olympics are supposed to be an event where the countries of the world put aside their diffrences and have fair sport and compititions. It is one of the only world events that actually make me feel patriotic and proud to be American anymore. Look at the political signifigance of Jesse Owens' 1936 performance in the face of Hitler. Or Tommie Smith and John Carlos raising their fists in 1968. I don't see the point in not watching or supporting our countries athletes because of a land dispute between fucked up China, and a group of equally fucked up socialist monks.

...equally fucked up socialist monks.
Dumbass!

are you saying that I am a dumbass because I think that condoning slavery and tourture are just as fucked up as communist China or because I enjoy the freakin Olympics ?

Can it be both?

Yes indeed it can be both. And while I don't deny that from time to time I tend to stumble into dumbassedness, I wish you would explain your reasons for calling me a dumbass. Oh and btw if I am a dumbass because I enjoy the Olympics then boycotting the Olympics is only gonna offend and irritate other dumbasses and, to tell you the truth, thats not doing them monks any good what so ever.

In fact, it was the previous 13 Dalai Lamas that allowed this slavery in Tibet, but the 14th Lama was and is against this, as he is egalitarian and in favor of equal distribution of wealth. He even descirbes himself as "Half Buddhist, half Marxist." The errors of his previous incarnations have been corrected by the present one. *humor*

One more thing I believe it is inaccurate to compare "manifest destiny" with the Chinese Invasion of Tibet. More accurately, it would be comparable to the German acquisition of the Sudetenland, although this was relatively blood-less. In fact the just like the germans took it to protect the germans in Czeckslovakia, the Chinese also used the pretext of defending the ethnic Chinese in Tibet as a pretext for taking Tibet. Tibet in itself was not like the Native Americans, as they were a recognized sovereign nation. China said that tibet had Chinese within its borders and said that it wanted to protect them, thus their invasion. One of their excuses was also to liberate Tibet from the clutches of imperialism. Right. If Tibet were again a sovereign nation, it is unlikely that they would revert back to feudalism.

See, I feel more educated. And while I still don't agree that boycotting the Olympics is going to better this situation, or that the 14th Dahli would actually be any better than the first 13, I was corrected and admit that I might have had the wrong opinion of the Dahli Lama class. And El did'nt even have to revert to name calling. Kudos El Thain.

See the main reason I personally suuport boycotting the games is because China had no fucking business being awarded them in the first place.

...and thats not just because of Tibet.

I think you misread it. The 14th Dalai Lama is actually the current one. He's the he marxist-buddhist was talking about. So far he has been about equality and peace. In fact, he and mao zedong both agreed (the only time they did) upon the simiarity of buddhism and socialism being anti-exploitation and anti-corruption.

The Dalai lama himself has appologized for slavery and feudalism. As to whether he would be a good ruler or not, he has spoken of the hypocracy of the invading Maoist (not communist) Chinese saying that while the feudal system was harsh, so was the bureacratic rule of the chinese. In his eyes, and in my opinion, this supposed liberation was merely a transfer of power from one elite group to another. If Tibet gained its freedom, the wisdom of the current (14th) Dalai Lama would almost certainly not revert to feudalism. If he does he is a hypocrite. Honestly though, I do not think that the tibetan people (if they were to gain independence) after gaining freedom would allow some other group to oppress them again.

Instead of the watching olympics, I think I'll watch Kundun.

Brad pitt taught taught old DL's everthing he knows

in well under a score

So does has the new DL actually ever held power in Tibet ? If so did he practice these anti slavery anti tourture beliefs while in power?

Yes, he was made Dalai Lama on November 17, 1950. This allowed him to deal with the Chinese directly. He did not torture or enslave anyone. No one has said that he was a torturer or that he made anyone his slave. He has called for a DEMOCRATIC autonomous Tibet. He opposses inequality in all forms, If he were to reign in Tibet there would be no slavery.

Looking into it more, saying they were slaves is most likely inaccurate. I think the word is hummynn. The system in Tibet in the past was not like slaves in the south on plantations. This was a system of service but did not involve whips and chains. The current Dalai Lama did have people tend to him when he was little and still does, but these are no different than the attendants of the Pope or other high Cleric/Clergy.

Well what I had read had said that they were much like serfs and that skin peeling and eye gouging were common punishments for broken laws. Not that I accept that as truth which is why I said correct me if I am wrong so if nothing else I am glad I gained insight. I still think its wrong to boycott the Olympics. If anything I would hope the U.S. crushes them at every event possible. While I am sure other countries have every reason to snub China, I just feel we need to correct our own governments evil doings before pointing the finger at someone else.

There are two sides to the issue of "slavery" in Tibet and I myself may be wrong. For China to criticize Tibets past as they in fact had a brutal form of feudalism, with drawing and quartering as punishment. When Maoism took over it was not any betterwith prisons, labor camps, torture, and execution. So if Tibet was indeed so bad, China had no right to criticize.

By the way, the Beijing governemnt has used rhetoric saying that Tibet has been part of China since the Qing dynasty. This is correct, although the Qing dynasty only lasted for 400 years up until 1911. The culture, land, and territory of Tibet have existed independently for thousands of years. In 1913 the Tibetans defeated a chinese force to drive them out of Tibet.

I am curious, what would the repercussions be if the Chinese olympic team were crushed by another team? Would it undermine their whole "muscle flexing" spectacle?

[QUOTE=The Rain Dog;2183716]

Would it bother you more if there was mineral wealth to be gained by invading the place???

QUOTE]

Believe it or not, resources were a big reason China invaded Tibet.

Boycott the Olympics, yes or no and why.

Yes because they had no business being awarded to China in the first place - thats me speakingas a viewer, Im not talking on behalf of anyone else.

More gentle persuasion from my country's favourite asian trading partner...

http://www.rr.com/flash/index.cfm?rev=10329

Chinese fire on protesters. 8 dead.

Scanning the news today I see the Chinese officials are back on track again, laughably calling the Dalai Lama "anti-human rights". You've got to love the hypocrisy!

When I see these officials denying what their own government does to it's people while faithfully regurgitating party propaganda, I feel a bit sorry for them. Either they have been indoctrinated and truly believe what they are saying or they're just going along with it out of fear.


Regarding the Dalai Lama, a few years ago a senator in my state raised a stink about allowing him to visit the capitol or having a prayer session, something to that effect. He went to the trouble of labeling the Dalai Lama as a cult leader. Oy!

I happen to find Tendzin Choegyal, the Dalai's brother, to be quite amusing and insightful-"Celebrities? They're all human beings..Richard Gere is a wonderful person, he's done alot for the Tibetan Community. An then, on the other side of the scale, there's Steven Seagal. Oh my god..He's a strange man."