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Daredevil: Avatar of Saturation

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
I've seen a lot of talk about how the superhero genre is dying, and its weight is only sinking an industry tied to it. At the very least, the superhero monoculture, if not a financial burden, is at least not something the right-minded would actively wish for. Basically, such a sentiment deserves a mascot. Superman represents the superhero genre in general, and the concept at its purest. Spider-Man the everyman superhero and the "Marvel Age". Green Lantern is the shorthand for how nerdy someone is in their devotion to comics--the equivalent to Pink Floyd conjuring the image of potheads. I propose we name a single character to represent the saturation and redundancy of the superhero genre in the comics medium. I nominate Daredevil.

Daredevil was the creation of Stan Lee and Bill Everett in a presumably more sober state, made his way onto the stands in 1964--one of their last signifigant superhero characters that was not a revamp or spin-off or something to that degree. Being launched in his own title, the ideas surrounding him certainly seemed novel--in his secret identity as a blind lawyer. (Of course, in being a lawyer, blind or even named Daredevil--he is not the first in any of these respects) Ultimately, the book had a solid following as most of Marvel's silver age superheroes did. It featured the art of noteable artists like Gene Colan and Wally Wood, and many fans fondly remember its wackier storylines. (Mike Murdock and whatnot) But ultimately it wasn't hard to see the character was a deritive of Spider-Man, with the blind gimmick thrown in. Generally not a big deal, every craze is going to have its hangers-on, and there were still non-superhero books, even if they were being phased out.

Circa the late seventies, we have a character who's still hanging around. Not quite one of Marvel's first-stringers like Spider-Man and the Hulk, but hanging towards the back with folks like Dr. Strange and Captain Marvel. (Who would in a few years be killed off) As Frank Miller likes to tell it, his first love is crime comics, but all he was able to work with was superheroes. So he took the book as a thin cover to tell crime stories, bringing it to places the industry would never take Spider-Man or Batman. (Until DC let him bring Batman to those places) Miller's work was acclaimed, and drove up the book's sales. A happy ending, right? Except, keep this mind. First, the thing to keep in mind is the superhero genre flourished because it could ingest other genres, while other genres couldn't exactly do the same. Once you're a superhero comic, you're a superhero comic. Secondly, because it prevented a second stringer from languishing in obscurity and established him as royalty in the House of Ideas. This established that it's never too late to make something of a trademark, even one that was only moderately popular to begin with. Moon Knight? Sure! Nova? Why not? Also, of all the barely-well known figures from the Stan Lee vaults, it had to be the one that, no matter how many mobsters and ninjas you throw in, is always going to be a superhero character. Perhaps a reinvention of Kid Colt, Ka-Zar or Dr. Strange could have allowed at least one of Marvel's top figureheads to be a little different from the rest.

Now, of course, many would probably save their emnity for the X-Men franchise. It was also a likewise moribund franchise revived in the seventies. It also provided an easy and endless supply of superbeings, not to mention spin-offs. (And the impenetrable continuity it would garner) However, these excess, though many, aren't unique to the superhero genre, or even comic book medium. Nor do they signify domination per se. Captain Marvel managed many spin-offs even though superheroes weren't the only game in town in the forties. Likewise, Richie Rich's 30 titles a month probably didn't indicate an industry dominance of his genre. At the point a franchise becomes popular enough to support multiple spin-offs, there's probably something inherent in the property that genre popualrity won't affect too much. And as for the revamp, one could argue it was at least done with largely new creations, often promoting a diversity superheroes sometimes lack.

Yes, Daredevil's book often attracts top writers. But should it? Would efforts be better served going to characters that are going to be published anyways, as they simply have a multimedia scale Daredevil doesn't? Or better yet, go to an actual crime comic? And even if that can't be, keep in mind, I'm not saying superhero domination is Daredevil's fault, simply that he embodies it. He's a character, I believe, could not survive a genre crunch like in the 50's, and his being around signifies how dominant the superheroes are. So I just point this out; If you wish there weren't so many superhero comics, on some level, Daredevil really has to stick in your craw.
post #2 of 14
Valid points, but I always saw Wolverine as the poster child for oversaturation in comics. He became the "cool" X-Man during Claremont and Byrne's initial run (if you're into bad-ass psycho killing machines), and since then he's pretty much thrown into damn near every Marvel comic and been a member of almost every Marvel team (he's an Avenger? Are you shitting me?).
post #3 of 14
Good choice. He's always felt like Marvel's first obligatory superhero.
post #4 of 14
Mmmm...I don't think I agree. Perhaps I'm missing your point, but the problems with the superhero genre dominating comics are systemic and tied more into the way Marvel's business model evolved (yeah, I'm singling out Marvel specifically--DC alone wouldn't have caused the current fanboy mentality). If it wasn't Daredevil, it would be someone else.

People like Daredevil. They keep buying his comic when characters who have more history, more significance in the Marvel Universe, and more unique traits--like Dr. Strange or the Silver Surfer--can't support a book of their own. What's more, as far as I can tell, his adventures don't seem to intersect with the rest of the Marvel U. all that often. If he was unmoored from the Marvel Universe, he would probably still sell. That's fine by me. A book that can stand on its own merits without being a crucial part of some inter-company tie-in doesn't need to justify itself.

You do raise an interesting point about non-superhero characters in the Marvel U., though. If you look at the first few characters Marvel cranked out in the early 60s, only Spiderman really fits the bill as a classic superhero--the FF, Hulk, Dr. Strange, and Thor are something different. They've become fused with the concept of the superhero simply because of their proximity to same, but imagine if Spider-man hadn't come along. Marvel might have become a "shared action-adventure fantasy character universe" instead of being identified with superheroes specifically. The whole paradigm might have shifted.
post #5 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama-Killin' Gee-Tar View Post
Yes, Daredevil's book often attracts top writers. But should it? Would efforts be better served going to characters that are going to be published anyways, as they simply have a multimedia scale Daredevil doesn't? Or better yet, go to an actual crime comic? And even if that can't be, keep in mind, I'm not saying superhero domination is Daredevil's fault, simply that he embodies it. He's a character, I believe, could not survive a genre crunch like in the 50's, and his being around signifies how dominant the superheroes are. So I just point this out; If you wish there weren't so many superhero comics, on some level, Daredevil really has to stick in your craw.
This last paragraph is pretty much utter bullshit. If Daredevil were still being written by Frank Miller, you may have a point, but a majority of the writers doing him now are attracted to the character because of how he's evolved thanks to Frank. These writers wanted to work on DAREDEVIL and the characters and ideas therein, not just random crime comics (which, in many cases, they also do).

It's also insane to say that if somebody wishes there weren't so many superhero comics, they should whine about one of the best ones on the stands and one that transcends the traditional constraints of the genre.
Also, why the hell would you wish there were less superhero comics? It's not like the volume of them is the problem so much as their popularity over some of the better comics out there. Blame the problem, not the symptom.

This whole argument of an either/or comics industry is getting out of hand. All genres of comics can coexist, and this kind of diatribe is helping distort the issue so badly it's no wonder no progress is being made. The few people who are smart and care enough about comics to rant like this waste it all.
post #6 of 14
Thread Starter 
Timothy I think Wolverine reprents a lot of excesses, and his overexposure is annoying, but I think that's just the thing--he's at such a level of popularity that I don't think a lowering a tide would hurt him so much.


Prankster, keep in mind I'm not saying Daredevil caused it, simply that he represents it. And I do notice that he usually stands outside all the megacrossovers. (Probably more recently due to Bendis's clout than anything) But on the other hand, that means one could never consolidate him like with say, the Avengers characters.

Quote:
If you look at the first few characters Marvel cranked out in the early 60s, only Spiderman really fits the bill as a classic superhero--the FF, Hulk, Dr. Strange, and Thor are something different. They've become fused with the concept of the superhero simply because of their proximity to same, but imagine if Spider-man hadn't come along. Marvel might have become a "shared action-adventure fantasy character universe" instead of being identified with superheroes specifically.
To be fair there were other costumed/masked sorts running around at the time--although it's true whatever identitiy Hank Pym might have had would proably sink back into obscurity. Though I always liked that Marvel had a stable of heroes--Hulk, Human Torch, Silver Surfer, Nick Fury, Dr. Strange and even Iron Man, that were visually striking and unique without the typical mask and tights bit. (Though I don't think I could ever wish for Spider-Man not to exist)
post #7 of 14
I keep seeing different permutations of the arguement: "Super Heros dominate the comics industry. They are killing comics"

Marvel and DC have published Westerns, Mysteries, even Romance comics in the last few years. They have not sold enough to sustain ongoing series.

"Super Hero" seems to have a lot of flexibility; As you point out, you can write a super hero book and incorporate "Crime/Mystery" elements, but could not do the reverse.

Is your point that Marvel as a publisher is forcing writers to work on DareDevil? The writers themselves don't seem to think so, judging from their interviews.

I do agree that nowadays both Marvel and DC try to milk every minor chatacter from the last 30 years. If they want to survive they need to invent new characters. They try: Arana anyone? It's interesting to me that we have not seen anything like the burst of creativity that The fabled House of Ideas came out with in the 1960's

Sorry for the rambling post
post #8 of 14
This thread led me to believe there was going to be some new miniseries called "Avatar of Saturation" which would see Daredevil's world CHANGE FOREVER.
post #9 of 14
couldn't it just be that, like say with monthly printed magazines, online technology is killing comic books much more successfully than any single comic book genre ever could?
post #10 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
I keep seeing different permutations of the arguement: "Super Heros dominate the comics industry. They are killing comics"

Marvel and DC have published Westerns, Mysteries, even Romance comics in the last few years. They have not sold enough to sustain ongoing series.

"Super Hero" seems to have a lot of flexibility; As you point out, you can write a super hero book and incorporate "Crime/Mystery" elements, but could not do the reverse.

Is your point that Marvel as a publisher is forcing writers to work on DareDevil? The writers themselves don't seem to think so, judging from their interviews.

I do agree that nowadays both Marvel and DC try to milk every minor chatacter from the last 30 years. If they want to survive they need to invent new characters. They try: Arana anyone? It's interesting to me that we have not seen anything like the burst of creativity that The fabled House of Ideas came out with in the 1960's

Sorry for the rambling post

It's not so much a question of creativity. It's just that no one wants to make something new and good for a company that will take your rights and rightfully entitled profit share.


For every Siegel and Shuster, there's somebody like William Messner-Loebs.

It's a business, just like anything else. Besides, the entire concept of "The House of Ideas" is a fucked notion from the start.

Also, I'm interested on what you chose Daredevil as being the avatar of saturation. He gets used a lot, but I can think of several other characters that get more coverage in the Marvel Universe than ol' Hornhead.
post #11 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Is your point that Marvel as a publisher is forcing writers to work on DareDevil?
Not so much forces the writers to work on it, but that the book is kind of forced to be published, until intervals that it's relevant again (And that it goes back to attracting top talent is that Marvel has an obligatory title that's so often under the radar, talent can do pretty well with it). Granted, this happens with a lot of characters, but I think Daredevil in particular represents it, because he's not an especially potent property off the comic pages. (Let me put it this way--of all the superhero adaptations this decade, I really think that franchise is the most forgotten)

I admit, "saturation" wasn't the best word to use--it was pretty late at night. But I'm not saying he represents a marketing blitz for one character. But, for lack of a better reference, think of a Jeff Foxworthy joke. "You know superheroes are such a dominant part of the industry when Daredevil's been published non-stop for forty years". I'm saying if you think there are too many superheroes, Daredevil should kind of piss you off.
post #12 of 14
I personally think both Marvel and DC have WAY too many third and fourth tier characters, not all of whom deserve a series, but they get 'em anyway - there's your saturation arguement (how many X-titles do we need anyway?). A spring cleaning/streamlining is very much in order.

In the right hands, characters like Daredevil can have a life off the comics page - I thought the idea and cast for the Daredevil movie would have made it a lock for a moneymaker, but the execution was flawed. It's OK, just not what I would've hoped for. If Iron Man does great business, superheroes will become hot again, at least for awhile.

I do agree that comics should diverisfy beyond the superhero genre, and the big two have tried with varying degrees of success (DC's Vertigo, Marvel's Epic lines), but most of their audience (paying customers) gravitate to the superhero titles. All the companies are doing is giving them what they want. It's the fans that really have to change a bit - they should try something different every now and again (For example, I'm rediscovering the old Conan comics I missed the first time around - Dark Horse rules!).
post #13 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderson View Post
It's not so much a question of creativity. It's just that no one wants to make something new and good for a company that will take your rights and rightfully entitled profit share.


For every Siegel and Shuster, there's somebody like William Messner-Loebs.

It's a business, just like anything else. Besides, the entire concept of "The House of Ideas" is a fucked notion from the start.

Also, I'm interested on what you chose Daredevil as being the avatar of saturation. He gets used a lot, but I can think of several other characters that get more coverage in the Marvel Universe than ol' Hornhead.
Actually Mama-Killin Geetar chose Daredevil, not me. I think Wolverine is the most overused character in the Marvel Universe.

I thought after WildStorm, Dark Horse et al gave creators better deals in the 1990's, Marvel and DC were forced to fall into line and do the right thing. Then again if that is true to actually explains the dearth of compelling new characters. If you are Marvel/DC it makes sense to continue to recycle your stable of characters rather than shell out more money to a writer and/or artist with a new idea.
post #14 of 14
If there weren't any second-string comic characters you'd never get any interesting stories.

Seriously, has anything monumental happened in Spider-Man since Gwen Stacy was killed? ("Monumental" in a good way, that is.)

Daredevil's middling popularity has allowed for a wider range of story telling and, more importantly, suspense. It has allowed creators more freedom to tell stories that don't impact the sales of coloring books and action figures. Merchandising has strangled the life out of Spider-Man.

So yeah, I much prefer Daredevil to any of Marvel's mainstream characters. I haven't read Spider-Man on any consistent basis since the 1980s and it doesn't appear that I missed much. You sure can't say that for Daredevil.

That being said, Marvel has a bad habit of giving characters their own book, even when they don't deserve it. Doctor Strange is much more interesting as a supporting character, for example. Giving him his own book is a bit like giving Professor X his own book.

Honestly, anyone associated with a classic Avengers line-up should never, ever have their own title. That includes Captain America and Iron-Man, both of whom work better in group environments.
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