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Armond White ponders "What We Don't Talk About When We Talk About Movies"

post #1 of 48
Thread Starter 
http://ftl.nypress.com/21/17/news&columns/feature3.cfm

I came across this article, and while I can't say that I necessarily agree with what White is saying (nor can I really say that I disagree), it's still an interesting read and I thought it might generate some discussion here on the boards.

I'm not going to repost the entire article here, as it's a bit long, but here are some of the highlights.

Quote:
What we don’t talk about when we talk about movies these days reveals that we have not moved past the crippling social tendency that 1990s sociologists called Denial. The most powerful, politically and morally engaged recent films (The Darjeeling Limited, Private Fears in Public Places, World Trade Center, The Promise, Shortbus, Ask the Dust, Akeelah and the Bee, Bobby, Running Scared, Munich, War of the Worlds, Vera Drake) were all ignored by journalists whose jobs are to bring the (cultural) news to the public. Instead, only movies that are mendacious, pseudo-serious, sometimes immoral or socially retrograde and irresponsible (4 Months, 3 Weeks and 2 Days, Army of Shadows, United 93, Marie Antoinette, Zodiac, Last Days, There Will Be Blood, American Gangster, Gone Baby Gone, Letters From Iwo Jima, A History of Violence, Tarnation, Elephant) have received critics’ imprimatur.
And then there's this:

Quote:
The new inclination is to write esoteric criticism. Post-Tarantino cinema has wrung the pop aesthetic dry, so the new gods of criticism have made totems of movies so unwatchable and so unappealing that they prohibit the basic pleasure and amazement of moviegoing. Critical babble doesn’t talk about what matters, but it sustains Ten Current Film Culture Fallacies: 1)“The Three Amigos” Iñárritu, Cuarón and del Toro are Mexico’s greatest filmmakers while Julian Hernandez is ignored. 2) Gus Van Sant is the new Visconti when he’s really the new Fagin, a jailbait artful dodger. 3) Documentaries ought to be partisan rather than reportorial or observational. 4) Chicago, Moulin Rouge and Dreamgirls equal the great MGM musicals. 5) Paul Verhoeven’s social satire Showgirls was camp while Cronenberg’s campy melodramas are profound. 6) Brokeback Mountain was a breakthrough while all other gay-themed movies were ignored. 7) Todd Haynes’ academic dullness is anything but. 8) Dogma was a legitimate film movement. 9) Only non-pop Asian cinema from J-horror to Hou Hsiao Hsien counts, while Chen Kaige, Zhang Yimou and Stephen Chow are rejected. 10) Mumblecore matters.
I'm not sure what to say about this. His seeming dismissal of films like There Will Be Blood, United 93, A History of Violence, etc., combined with his stance on directors like Cuaron, del Toro, Van Sant, and Cronenberg (in which he seemingly writes them off), seems almost like he's trying to be contrary just for the sake of it. Plus, he complains about a perceived elitism among internet critics, but this whole article reeks of elitism.

I don't know. Either way, it's an interesting read.
post #2 of 48
I'm pro-elitist, generally speaking. I think there has been an unavoidable democratization of voices due to the internet, and this has had some unfortunate results. The babble to which White refers has had an impact on discourse about the movies (and music and politics and culture and anything else you've ever seen come up on the web), and, yeah, I can see why it might be infuriating to a guy who came out of the Kael school of movie criticism that one of the most visible movie "critics" around happens to be an obese, non-college-educated (I think) Texas fanboy who specializes in movie news and emotional gushing rather than cerebral analyses.

Granted, I don't think it's anyone's fault (Harry Knowles or Nick's, for that matter) that movie coverage on the web is heavier on news and less on analysis, but it is kind of a bummer that even on CHUD, one of the better places to discuss movies online, a lot of the discussion does boil down to "it sucks/it rocks." (Not to get on the tangent about the value of movie discussion over other types of discussion here - I always value intelligent discussion, no matter what the topic, over "it sucks/it rocks.")

But (a huge, Sir Mix-a-Lot-approved "but," in fact) - at its best, the web also allows for a marketplace of ideas probably unparalleled in human history. There's more dumb than ever before, but there's also the possibility that you'll find guys who know movies just as well as and make intelligent, better arguments than Armond White*. I'm not sure what qualifies one to be a "professional movie critic" in the way that White would want one to be, but I find it hard to believe that the only guys with this capacity are currently employed by major newspapers or regularly being published in scholarly journals.

* Interestingly, in his lists of "politically, morally engaged movies" and "socially retrograde and irresponsible movies," he's not doing much more than setting up an "it sucks/it rocks" dichotomy, giving us little to go on other than his word that his (seemingly bizarre) impressons of these movies reflect overall trends. Munich, War of the Worlds, Vera Drake, and the Darjeeling Limited were ignored? Marie Antoinette, Tarnation, and Elephant were reverently hyped? This seems kind of delusional to me, as does the idea that A History of Violence is somehow "amoral," but Running Scared is "moral."
post #3 of 48
It's important to keep in mind that Armond White is a lunatic. An entertaining one, but a lunatic nonetheless.
post #4 of 48
I'm unfamiliar with this guy. Does he review movies, or does he just review reviews?
post #5 of 48
Devin's right. White's insane. And he writes like fabfunk.
post #6 of 48
Quote:
Brokeback Mountain was a breakthrough while all other gay-themed movies were ignored.
I thought Brokeback not being ignored WAS the breakthrough.
post #7 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
It's important to keep in mind that Armond White is a lunatic. An entertaining one, but a lunatic nonetheless.
Yeah, I had never read anything by the guy before, but based on this glowing recommendation, I just might have to check out some of his other stuff.

And like DaveB, I'm pretty much for elitism, and I agree that the net is often a wasteland of rampant stupidity. It's just that it seemed a little disingenuous to me that the guy is complaining about elitism, while at the same time offering up an elitist stance of his own.
post #8 of 48
Rath's really wrong. Armond's a good writer, it's just that his opinions are bugfuck nuts and often so opposite the general wisdom that you have to wonder if he's just screwing with you. But he has stuck to his nutty guns for YEARS. He's way worth reading.
post #9 of 48
Kind of a joke. I always enjoy reading the guy.
post #10 of 48
Beyond the fact that I find his opinions insane and delivered with quite an obnoxious attitude, White's constant need to attack (and attack and attack) those who disagree with him really turns me off. He comes off like an insecure and over-educated baby.
post #11 of 48
Wow, he really paints Ebert as the death of criticism, doesn't he? I think that's kind of unfair. TV Ebert and Print Ebert are two totally different experiences. Obviously, you can't get detailed criticism off a five-minute segment on "At the Movies". The people that want full detailed criticism would never stop at the T.V. show, anyway and would seek out books and columns for the Real Deal.
post #12 of 48
He is right about "Brokeback Mountain". Gay cinema remains in the arthouse ghetto. "Brokeback Mountain", meanwhile, doesn't even feature a character saying the word "gay". Not really much of a groundbreaker there- "Midnight Cowboy" remains more relevant.

As well spoken as he seems, apparently White is a real firestarter in person. I hear during a meeting of the NYCC, when they announced a lifetime achievement award for Sidney Lumet he got up and railed on and on about how he thought Lumet was a TV-sized auteur, in a ramble that had a lot of, "Fuck, man!"'s and "C'mon"'s. I really wish someone Youtubed that.
post #13 of 48
Didn't White think Norbit was brilliant.
post #14 of 48
I did a little research and saw that he decried the elevation of Micheal Mann while Walter Hill remains criminally underappreciated by internet critics.

Which led me to go "Huh?" - much like his assertion that Zhang Yimou and Stephen Chow are dismissed, I don't see that happening. Sure, people think Mann is great (I have no problem with that, though if you find his stuff "slick" that's probably a fair criticism), but I generally find a tremendous appreciation for Walter Hill's work as well.

At first blush, I'd have to agree with the consensus of those who REALLY read him - interesting reading but overall he's just a crank who seems only passingly acquainted with reality.
post #15 of 48
White seems to be all over the place about this. On the one hand he says that the Internet crowd's "elitism" is snubbing good films. On the other, he says it's leveling the collective taste of emerging films. He really needs to make up his mind if he wants to make a point. He should keep in mind that movie criticism, if anything, allows the public to filter out at least some of the crap the studios flood us with, and helpfully points out gems we might not have noticed on our own. Of course, my experience as primarily been here at a CHUD, not AICN or any of those other sites.
post #16 of 48
In Defense of Armond White

I came across this link in a post on Ebert's blog--a post initially defending White but revised to acknowedge his trollishness. I haven't seen District 9, so can't speak to that controversy, but some of the quotes cited really intrigued me, especially White's appraisal of A.I.

Quote:

"Everyone's estimation of A.I. will depend on their interest in childhood mythology. Will they accept that Spielberg–from The Sugarland Express to The Color Purple, from Hook to Amistad—is the one filmmaker to sustain the link between fantasy and moral reckoning? Start with the film's audacious ad copy ("His love is real. But he is not"). It sets A.I. apart from Hollywood's mostly antipathetic films. Rather than indulging religiosity, as Spielberg's antireligious detractors charge, the movie phases into and through religious parallels toward a spiritual essence. Every image (whether a deceptive heavenly orb or Gigolo Joe's facial planes resembling David Bowie's trompe l'oeil makeup in the Blue Jean video) forces us to question the authenticity of things and feelings. Each part of David's journey through carnal and sexual universes into the final eschatological devastation becomes as profoundly philosophical and contemplative as anything by cinema's most thoughtful, speculative artists—Borzage, Ozu, Demy, Tarkovsky. So what if the project came via Kubrick? That's both a red herring and good fortune. Moments that Kubrick would have made cold and ugly are surpassed by Spielberg's richer truth—and that's as it should be. It's Spielberg's distinct sensibility that makes the difference. Rejecting the cynical trickery some people prefer in drama, his A.I. is equal to Kubrick's finest work."
That is pretty much how I felt about the film, if less articulately (and no, I wouldn't necessarily put it up as an equal to Kubrick's finest works). The main problem most have with White is that his reactions are clearly inauthentic, and maybe he's being so here, for all I know, but the article is an interesting read, if only to see how White isn't necessarily playing provocateur with every review and even those that bait have more to say about pop culture than the film itself.
post #17 of 48
White might very well be insane, but I think he means what he says and isn't posing inauthentic arguments just to argue them. I don't always agree with him but he's always worth checking out, and often he sums up exactly how I feel about a movie, especially polarizing movies like A.I. which I think is one of Spielberg's masterpieces.

Thanks for the link, bendrix...that's yet another great read from Ebert. He makes some great points about White as a "troll." Love it.
post #18 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
White might very well be insane, but I think he means what he says and isn't posing inauthentic arguments just to argue them. I don't always agree with him but he's always worth checking out, and often he sums up exactly how I feel about a movie, especially polarizing movies like A.I. which I think is one of Spielberg's masterpieces.
It's entirely possible that White isn't inauthentic, but reading things like this...

Quote:
"Does the Wayans family realize that the concept behind Little Man, their latest collective project, makes it a near-classic comedy? Director Keenen Ivory Wayans and his performing brothers Marlon and Shawn are notorious for childish impudence and sarcasm in such hits as Scary Movie and White Chicks. But in Little Man, dealing with their habitual irrepressible immaturity unleashes something poignant. It makes this silly, lightweight film almost deep."
...makes one ponder.

It could be a case of "We are what we pretend to be," writ large, a contrarian who initially takes positions to provoke but then becomes so aligned with his justifications, he believes them wholeheartedly.
post #19 of 48
This is going to sound stupid, but...I haven't seen Little Man. I certainly don't want to, but I can't say White's full of shit based on a film I haven't seen.

I have seen some Waynes Bros work, and while I'm not as big of a fan of them as he is, I appreciate their sense of humor, and like White, I appreciate that they don't take themselves that seriously.

Again...I can see why people don't get him. How can a guy trash something like There Will Be Blood but praise Little Man? I don't know, honestly...but I'm really glad someone is.
post #20 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
This is going to sound stupid, but...I haven't seen Little Man. I certainly don't want to, but I can't say White's full of shit based on a film I haven't seen.

I have seen some Waynes Bros work, and while I'm not as big of a fan of them as he is, I appreciate their sense of humor, and like White, I appreciate that they don't take themselves that seriously.

Again...I can see why people don't get him. How can a guy trash something like There Will Be Blood but praise Little Man? I don't know, honestly...but I'm really glad someone is.
Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily call him "full of shit." I do however believe it's entirely possible he is being contrarian for the sake of it, maybe as a sort of commentary of the role of critic I'm nto smart enough to get. It's not hard to gauge what critical consensus will be at any given point these days, even before any critic has seen the movie, and like you say, he's filling a much-needed role.

On the other side of the coin, we have Ebert, who thought Awake with Hayden Christiansen was fanstastic, due in large part to his then-recent hospital stay. No one can really doubt that reaction was authentic. But to someone not so familiar with White's work, like myself, his intentions are harder to pin down.
post #21 of 48
I can't help but think he's just a shit disturber since I discovered him through the fact that most of the movies I've seen on Rotten Tomatoes that have a 90-100% average list him as one of the detractors. Seems like the quintessential example of someone going against the popular consensus just to feel special/superior.
post #22 of 48
Ebert kind of retracted his defense of White. He wasn't knowledgeable of his past work.
post #23 of 48
Glenn Kenny has a nice little takedown of Armond over at his blog:

http://somecamerunning.typepad.com/s...hrown-out.html

Quote:
In their eagerness to make lemonade out of lemons, these boosters ignore a few salient points. The first being White's problematic relationship to the English language. Here's a challenge. Tell me what this sentence, from White's review of the new version of The Taking of Pelham 123, means: "Audiences who enjoyed the original 1974 Pelham 123 took its grungy dangerousness as a realistic confirmation of their own citizens' distrust." Now here's the rub: I don't want to know what you think it means, what you infer it means when you put it through your own personal White decoder ring, no; I want to know what the words in the sentence as they are actually written actually mean. As, you know, an actual copy editor would understand them. Because an actual copy editor would tell you that the sentence is gibberish. (You get at least two of these every time White goes over 1,000 words, by the way.) ...

Then of course there's the sub-theme of every White review, which is that every other critic is a moral degenerate and an aesthetic cretin. And it is this judgment that explains the, well, seeming arbitrariness as to what he elects to condemn and what he elects to celebrate. He wrote of Star Trek and Wolverine: "Their only purpose: teaching audiences to watch movies crudely, as teenagers, as a boy. At that, [they] succeed damnably." And as for G.I. Joe: "With G.I. Joe, we don't have to put on that we're above trash—after all, it's based on a Hasbro toy and a popular animated TV series for kids." Before you say "Huh?", just check out the Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic ratings of the above-cited pictures. They'll tell you most of what you need to know.

I understand that Lichman, Yamato, Campbell and many others yearn for a truly provocative contrarian to shake things up in the movie criticism world. That they have to settle for this intellectually fraudulent, baseline incompetent lout is sadder for them, I guess, than it is for the rest of us.
He doesn't even get into the fact that White often gets very basic plot points spectacularly wrong in his reviews.
post #24 of 48
That's way off, nor hardly a take down.

I don't get the hate. We need Armond White.
post #25 of 48
I don't want to read his whole review because I don't want to be spoiled, but it's safe to say based on the header he's no fan of INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS:

http://www.nypress.com/article-20225...-jamboree.html

Quote:
Quentin Tarantino indulges his gory side to create Jewish revenge porn with Inglorious Basterds
post #26 of 48
Having just recently found out about this guy after the District 9 Rottentomatoes debacle, I do agree with him on one point:

"I used to love to see stuff like The Long, Hot Summer and Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. To me, this was a window into the adult world. Now people watch movies so they can stay kids, which proves how infantilized the culture is."

I normally would have blanched at that, but I remember a comment that someone made on Facebook a little while back (either Nick or Devin's page, can't remember right off the bat) when Transformers 2 was making its debut. One of them posted a quick TF2 insult, and someone responded with "What if we're just happy to see a reminder of our childhood on the big screen?", which immediately weirded me out.

I definitely go see movies for more "adult" reasons (though I'm not above watching something dumb and childish - I still haven't seen either of the TF movies or GI Joe) so someone's glee at seeing something they liked as a kid being updated sets off my creep-meter, especially if that something really sucked. Which, of course, goes back to the "sucks/rocks" discussion, but White's still got a point.
post #27 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt M View Post
He doesn't even get into the fact that White often gets very basic plot points spectacularly wrong in his reviews.
To wit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armond White
Her deliberately provocative union with Marcel (Jacky Ido), a Negro ex machina who helps Shoshanna carry out her plan to annihilate all of the Third Reich, is also undefined. Marcel, who narrates the penultimate chapters...
How dumb does a modern American film critic have to be to not recognize Samuel L. Jackson's voice? In a fucking Tarantino movie, no less! But, okay, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say he's just got no ear for voices. How, then, does he manage to mistake the narrator's American voice for Marcel's french-accented one?

The only answer can be that he doesn't really pay attention.
post #28 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Elvis View Post
That's way off, nor hardly a take down.

I don't get the hate. We need Armond White.
Why do we need him? Generally, he would be indistinguishable from any other contrarian troll (albeit one with a better than average vocabulary) if not for his status as a "serious" critic and position at NY Press. Sure he might stumble upon an interesting point of view once in a while. And I don't mind his mistakes over some details. He's certainly not the only critic to do that (I'm looking at you, Ebert!). But he seems to be more interested in derision than in provoking thoughtful discussion. I don't see how that raises the quality of film criticism.
post #29 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas View Post
Why do we need him? Generally, he would be indistinguishable from any other contrarian troll (albeit one with a better than average vocabulary) if not for his status as a "serious" critic and position at NY Press. Sure he might stumble upon an interesting point of view once in a while. And I don't mind his mistakes over some details. He's certainly not the only critic to do that (I'm looking at you, Ebert!). But he seems to be more interested in derision than in provoking thoughtful discussion. I don't see how that raises the quality of film criticism.
I don't know enough about White to make a thoroughly educated defense on his behalf, but it comes down to whether you think a critic's primary duty is to determine quality or to make you think about movies in ways you otherwise might not have.

It would seem to me that even consciously assuming a contrarian position in every review would require him to back the position up with reasonable points. In other words, even if he's playing devil's advocate for the sake of "trolling", he still has to provide support, which might often yield something of interest for the rest of us.
post #30 of 48
Instead of starting another thread for Armond White, I thought I'd post this here. Armond White posits a world where Noah Baumbach's mother got an abortion. Crazy, as always! Not having seen Mr Jealousy I can't say for sure if the movie offends me to the point of calling for the pre-emptive erase of Baumbach from existence, but something tells me the movie isn't as irresponsible as White makes it out to be.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runnin..._that_armo.php
post #31 of 48
Am I the only person that finds White a crushingly pretentious bore? He's like the dude you don't want to get stuck with at a party.
post #32 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Am I the only person that finds White a crushingly pretentious bore? He's like the dude you don't want to get stuck with at a party.
I'd never call him boring! Irritating, yes. But there's entertainment value to these real life trolls, more often than not.
post #33 of 48
I liked Bill Ryan's response to this at his blog.
post #34 of 48
Devin's article says what I said better.
http://chud.com/articles/articles/24...ITE/Page1.html
post #35 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
I normally would have blanched at that, but I remember a comment that someone made on Facebook a little while back (either Nick or Devin's page, can't remember right off the bat) when Transformers 2 was making its debut. One of them posted a quick TF2 insult, and someone responded with "What if we're just happy to see a reminder of our childhood on the big screen?", which immediately weirded me out.
Funny thing though - I just checked at White actually gave TF2 a glowing review...

I'm pretty sure he gages the responses of other critics and decides what he's going to write before he sees any movies.
post #36 of 48
Thread Starter 

Bumping this, because...holy shit.

 

http://www.avclub.com/articles/armond-white-debuts-live-version-of-his-contrarian,49901/

 

 

"Near the end of the night, White introduced playwright Tony Kushner, who would present the Best Picture award to The Social Network, by saying, “Surely, Kushner, whose great play, Angels in America, showed how spiritual and social connections transformed lust and envy to family, friends, and country, has a moral responsibility to explain why The Social Network is good." Unfortunately, White neglected to regale the audience with his theory on why The Social Network failed in part thanks to the deficit of “instructive” Harvard veracity embodied by the 1986 C. Thomas Howell comedy Soul Man, but this was probably just as good.

 

Ending things on a high note, White did as any proper troll would and threw in an unprompted final dig at his supposed archenemies—namely director Noah Baumbach, whose publicity team disinvited White from Greenberg, sparking a weeks-long imbroglio that eventually led to White comparing the incident to “exactly what Communist cells do to anyone they disfavor,” adding, “This is how fascists operate,” and throwing in “it is also a racist lynching by white critics of a black critic” for good measure. In his closing remarks, White said, “I thank the circle for not awarding a single award to Greenberg”—which, in Armond White’s world, actually qualifies as a classy rejoinder.

 

Anyway, you can check out White’s list of “better-than” films that should have been recognized this year instead—with its attendant argument as to why True Grit is a lesser movie than Jonah Hex—by clicking here to go to his website. After all, that’s why he says that stuff. [Village Voice, New York Post, Gawker, Vulture]"

post #37 of 48

Well, you don't tap White to host your show for his witty one-liners and tap-dancing abilities.

post #38 of 48

He should have a movie-reviewing show on Comedy Central. It'd be just like The Colbert Report, only it would be about movies and also it wouldn't be a joke.

post #39 of 48

His awkward feud with Baumbach is hilariously entertaining. He just randomly brings up a Baumbach piece in any review of an unrelated movie and digs into it.

post #40 of 48

Guh. I really wish this guy wasn't defending Scott Pilgrim.

post #41 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post

Guh. I really wish this guy wasn't defending Scott Pilgrim.



Yeah, I know. If only it had been a big hit.

 

Then, he could have said something like:

 

Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World uses the video game medium at the service of a vacuous, pointless romance with no connection to the human experience. And it's very telling that the only minority characters in the film are villains or romantic rivals. Compare that to Neveldine/Taylor's Gamer - a superb deconstruction of our society on the brink of collapse. It is a movie that is about something. Edgar Wright has no understanding of humanity. And so his work is an empty failure.

 

Alas.

post #42 of 48

Huh, his Scott Pilgrim defense was classic. It basically amounted to "Quentin Tarentino is a talentless, morally shallow, living exemplifier or everything wrong with culture and the art of film criticism, and if you enjoy his films, you're a racist child, and Scott Pilgrim was fine".

 

I've kind of passed the point of amusement with this guy though, and would prefer to stop hearing about his antics. He's such a fucking pedant.

post #43 of 48

I liked The Social Network, but aside from his casual digressions with a tenuous attachment to the subject at hand, he kind of nailed a whole lot about the movie.

 

And good for him, because Scott Pilgrim is awesome.

post #44 of 48

Yeah, but he only likes it because it wasn't successful, and because other critics didn't like it much. His reviews have nothing to do with the quality of the movie.

post #45 of 48

His initial review review ran on August 10th, three days before it opened. http://www.nypress.com/article-21507-the-dweeb-that-would-rule-the-world.html

 

Did he become more of a cheerleader when the film flopped? Of course. It's a critics' job to shine the light on films the public unfairly rejected. But most of his main points on Pilgrim are found in the initial review.

post #46 of 48

People knew it wasn't going to do well long in advance. And I think most critics have a sense of how other critics are going to feel about a movie. Don't they tend to go to screenings together?

post #47 of 48

Armond White: Persecuted?  Or just an administrative error?

 

http://www.slashfilm.com/armond-white-kicked-rotten-tomatoes/

post #48 of 48

How could he be persecuted for his opinion when it's not a true representation of his opinion?

 

I defy anyone to read his Jack and Jill review and consider it anything other than satire.

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