911 evidence - Page 2

There's certainly a fine line.

Oh, yt...so disappointed.

I can't believe you've fallen into this. What bothers me the most about these conspiracy theorists is that they say there's been almost no real investigation of the event, which is patently false. Reams of paper have been expended on the subject. Just because our government declined to look at it doesn't mean that it wasn't studied.

The problem with conspiracy theories in general is that they are consistent violations of Occam's Razor. Any plan that would require the cooperation of as many people as fixing 9/11 would require would be bound to fail. The sheer number of people who would have not only had to do their parts perfectly, and without getting caught, but absolutely keep their mouths shut for years afterward, is what really makes the whole thing sink. If the press could get wind of the story behind the outing of an active CIA agent within days, what makes anybody think that something of this scale could be contained for any length of time? We found out about the abuses at Abu Ghraib, we found out about the use of torture at Guantanamo; and yet people are willing to believe that a conspiracy to murder 3,000 people and blame it on the middle east would go undiscovered? Do we really have so much confidence in the top-shelf efficiency and competence of the Bush administration that we're willing to believe that they could actually pull this off, and get away with it?

It's ludicrous. Sorry. You can talk about the flash point of jet fuel all you like, but no administration could plug all the leaks that would appear after something like this.

Well okay. Meanwhile, this administration has proven to be nothing but a giant lying sack of shit oil mongers, and they absolutely would not have been able to push forward the agenda they set in motion years before Bush stole the 2000 election if this particular incident had never taken place. And you guys label anyone who believes that this administration was actually behind said event a complete lunatic (keep in mind that I personally am not convinced that that is the truth)?

Fuck off with that shit.

I'm sure that many of those who are comfortable in labeling these sort of people as nuts are also just as comfortable with the fact that our schools do not at all teach an accurate view of American history and still largely enforce students to recite a pledge based on nothing but absolute lies.

Because one would think that if people were so against these things, they'd be doing something about it.

You know what I think is bat shit fucking insane? The fact that so many of you know very well how much of a mess this administration has gotten us into and yet so many of us are so comfortable with our lives that you still choose to do nothing about it.

Many are still convinced that they're powerless to make a difference and yet even more are convinced that owe our allegiance to these people, as though they were in some way superior to us. That we require their guidance in our day to day lives, as though they were actually superior to the common man.

That is fucking insane.

This system is fucking broke and we have ourselves to thank as much as anyone else. Regardless of if BushCo was actually behind the attacks I don't really have a doubt in my mind that in today's increasingly ignorant, distracted and more importantly selfish society, that it is entirely possible that a crime of a similar magnitude could be committed with those responsible getting off completely free.

Remember the election in 2000? Remember the very strong evidence of that election being rigged? Remember the same sort of thing happening on a smaller scale but more widespread through different sectors in the 2004 election? What came of that? Am I completely insane because I believe that George W. Bush is President because those elections were fixed in his favor?

Yes our leadership is just so very incompetent. So incompetent that the majority of us are so unconcerned about that incompetence that instead of marching on Washington and demanding that these assholes resigned from office our biggest concern is the latest episode of BSG (or whatever show was popular in 2000 on...I wouldn't know because I don't watch alot of tv), how great Ironman is and how worried we are that Indy 4 is going to suck.

I believe that we're going to be turning the corner this year by electing Barrack Obama as our next President. But it's not a time to sigh in relief, it's still going to be an uphill battle from there.

The majority of Americans have just become too complacent and docile, hopefully enough of us will be awake before it's too late.

EDIT: And by awake I don't mean acknowledging that there is any sort of truth to the idea that Bush and his cronies were the masterminds behind September 11th, because I personally do not believe that.

Aaaaand now the thread has finally rounded that last corner.

Can we all agree? I think we're done here.

So, IB, after that little rant, may I assume that you yourself are doing something about it?

I'm gonna watch this all the way through, because I respect and admire yt, but so far, I gotta say, it's poorly argued and full of strawmen.

YT, have you watched 'Zeitgeist'? I know (well, think) you've commented on that before, but I can't remember.

I have no new information on this topic to throw down, but I genuinely believe we don't know the full truth about these events (especially the Pentagon attack) and we probably never will. I'm sure every person here can agree that a lot has been withheld, regardless of whether or not you think the government had a hand in it.


And it's funny that I found this thread tonight as about two hours ago I read a chapter in the book "Darkness At Dawn" (published by Yale, well-reviewed) by David Satter (Moscow correspondent for the New York Times and Wall Street Journal), which is about post-Soviet Russia. It details in the second chapter how a string of bombings in 2000 (or '99, I can't remember) were blamed on Chechen terrorists and as a reprisal got Russia embroiled in that conflict even further.

But the really interesting thing is that all these bombings occurred the same night, and another bomb was found by civilians in a basement of a tenement in Ryazan and defused. Police caught the people responsible, but they were shocked to find they were FSB agents and were released on the agency's order. The bomb was made from the same materials used by the "Chechens" and even though it was set the same night the FSB declared that this one was actually a test to see how vigilant the civilians of this city were, and they then awarded the people who first found it free TV sets. And a couple days later Putin, the former head of FSB, was elected.


Remember the Maine!

Of course he is...
...He's obviously MAD AS HELL and he's NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!!

I don't know, maybe 110 stories worth of concrete and steel falling on it?

If there was any kind of conspiracy, it was of the Pearl Harbor variety -- having information of an imminent attack and allowing it to happen to advance the administration's policies. But I refuse to believe a presidency headed up by a president who basically fiddled while New Orleans drowned and a vice-president who accidentally shot a friend in the face while hunting ranch-raised birds could pull off something as massive as 9/11, let alone keep it secret.

For those who watched all

Did the doc say who planted the bombs in the WTC to take them down? Was it the Gov't or terrorists.

I only watched about 7 minutes. I love how they cite a frantic fireman saying they would need 2 hose lines to put out the fire.

If the Bush Administration could manage to keep this vast conspiracy - and it would have to be vast - under wraps, how did we learn about three people visiting hospitals in the dead of night, or private memos instructing the DoJ to hound Democrats? Why did we learn about the videos and then the Message Force Multipiers the White House sent to ABC and CNN and such, but not about the demolition crews that planted the explosives in the WTC? Not one of them has enough of a conscience, even now, to come forth and speak? No one in the Bush Administration developed out of nowhere a need to spend more time with their family? I find the idea that this could be successfully pulled off a lot hard to believe than the idea a building full of burning kerosene isn't going to lose structural integrity. I watced the second tower fall, and I know what a deliberately demolished building looks like. The World Trade Center was destroyed, not demolished.

I'm not even sure PNAC would pull this off. I know for a fact that George W. Bush is willing to do awful things, but I don't think he'd eat a baby on TV. This is similar. It's not like dumping shit in the water and not caring if it happens to make someone sick later, it's like murder. Of Americans. No way.

I've noticed more and more people starting to question 9/11 at work and other places.


If you can explaine to me how BUILDING 7 collapsed then I'll stop believing the "conspiracy". LOOK AT BUILDING 7

Then explaine how a plane crashed into the pentagon and disintegrated the engines but left bodies and passports.

Then how United 93 crashed (we all know a plane crash when we see it on the ground right?) well there was no luggage, seats, bodies....NOTHING on the ground. They said it "dsintegrated"

Then look into how people "decided" to sell insurance company, american airlines, united stock short (betting it will go down) to make millions in the days prior to 9/11.

I could go on and on and on and on but its like the matrix "you have to see for yourself"

Once you look into it come back and I'll explaine WHY they did it.


Also it's very interesting that NORAD has a 100% interception rating and failed 4 times to intercept planes in one day, which happened to be 9/11. Oh yea Dick Cheney was overseeing NORAD that day but Im sure that has nothing to do with it

Umm.... arent we talking about it? I mean we have all the evidence that they couldnt keep secret. Like the fact that the video of Mohammad Atta boarding a plane...did you know THAT video that is always on the news WASN'T taken on 9/11? It was from a previous flight months before, they just don't mention that so that you ASSUME it was on 9/11


And it's funny how Rummy reported the $2.2 TRILLION missing from the pentagon on 9/10/2001. Yea 1 day before, losing 2.2 trillion dollars is a pretty HUGE story unless of course 9/11 happens. Im sure with 2.2 trillion you could pay alot of people off and do very interesting things.

I was unaware the grass roots 9/11 truth movement was taking place at Burger King.

Come on.. tell us.. is the "other places" where you get your meds???

Quite a lot of hassle just to be able to attack Afghanistan.
I'm shocked that otherwise intelligent people would even consider these crackpot "theories".

Sure, the US government demolished WTC, but were totally unable to plant some WMD in Iraq.

Why do we even indulge these retards? I'm all for questioning the man, especially since he'll try to slip one by the public whenever he can. That said...

How does this government orchestrate the largest scale attack in the history of the United States and keep it under wraps for the past 7 years (and no I don't consider crackpots meeting at Arby's clamoring over "building seven!!@#!#!" a serious discussion) yet proves to be so incompetent in all other facets of government? The Libby/Valerie Plame mess, the missing e-mails from the White House over the Attorney firings, the Gay male-escort with Press credentials, Katrina, Halliburton, Abu Ghraib, etc. and so on. They proved incompetent (maybe some conspiracy theorists state they leaked those things deliberately to make themselves *seem* incompetent, but come on) on all of those things, but somehow have made everyone who had to know these things "keep quiet". That fails my bull-shit detector right there.

How about this, if these conspiracy theorists have all this "evidence", why don't they bring a lawsuit against President Bush? Come on, let's have it. I want to see that trial happen.

I know a guy who didn't go to work the day the towers fell. All his co-workers died. ZOMG HE'S INVOLVED IN TEH CONSPIRACY!

The tower collapse doesn't defy the laws of physics in any way.

If you think it does, you are grossly ill-informed. ZOMG, glitchy physics!

People whine about these fires and I mean...a FREAKING PLANE crashed into the building. Regardless how hot the fires were burning, there was a big hole in the side of it in addition to the added weight of the plane, and the damage to many local supports. If it had stayed standing, I would've been shocked.

I'm sorry, but I'd rather trust some respected engineers than some crackpots spouting shit in a video. The truth of the matter is if you spend all your time looking into a conspiracy, you're going to find SOMETHING that you think fuels your argument, whether it holds water or not.

And if they can't plant some damn WMDs in Iraq, then they sure as shit can't manage a 9/11 conspiracy.

Me too. Normally I wouldn't humor conspiracy ideas and business like this but I've been flipping through Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine this morning so I'm feeling all skeptical and shit.

Christ, this shit is still being passed around by little men who substitute conspiracy theories for critical, thoughtful opinions of the actual issue at hand...to instill doubt of the very event is insulting to the victims, and props you up as a specially pathetic individual, to spend your time making or distributing internet videos for a cause you don't believe in yourself - otherwise, these nutters would actively be trying to destroy the U.S. government, and I could at least respect them for acting out, even if on a stupid, insane whim. But instead they spread lies that halt any thought or reasoning to actually change their country in a meaningful way - and cause damage to freedom of speech. It doesn't matter what you 'think', it's a fact that the twin towers were smashed into by airplanes, which weren't flown by 'government agents'. Don't be an idiot.

Fuck right off you disrespectful cunt.


OK, I love you again.


Carry on.

Arizona Senator Karen Johnson speaks out about 9/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2hdGMgLA2E

Quite to the contrary, I think conspiracy theories are ways of trying to force order on events that seem difficult and arbitrary. There's a degree of (very cold) comfort in thinking that 9/11 happened for a specific, albeit EEEEEvil, reason. It means our government is still in charge and not a just a collection of idiot nephews and son-in-laws who are unable to provide us the most basic protections. A vast and American conspiracy at the heart of the attack would indicate that we aren't actually so vulnerable to the whims of a few nutjobs with boxcutters, but rather to the shadowy conglomerate of power brokers that pull all the strings throughout the world. That's a scary thought, but for some the fact that there are strings at all is preferable to the idea that it's all just a stupid, chaotic mess of incompetence, corruption and hatred that none of us can truly be insulated from.

Hear fucking hear. I'd rather be called paranoid than complacent. I'd rather be the dope asking questions than the one who's not. Which is really the greater insult to the memories of the victims - and their surviving family members? History really has taught us nothing.

Having said that, most of the theories out there are utter garbage. But I don't need to know the truth to recognize that this administration isn't to be trusted about anything, 9/11 above all else. It's really disheartening to see so many people unable to separate obvious bullshit (JOOS DID 9/11, OMG A MIXSSLE HIT THE PPENTAGON) from real, legitimate unanswered questions. What the hell is up with Building 7? What the hell was up with the anthrax attacks shortly thereafter - exclusively targeted against Democrats and the media? The real questions and the obvious bullshit should absolutely not be so carelessly lumped together; that is the real insult to the memories of the victims.

I haven't had a chance to watch this yet, but I want to give it a shot when I get home later, but I still wanted to reply to a couple of things.

Haha, yt's craaaaazy!

Seriously, you're one of the heaviest hitters in the Political Discussion forum and I read damn near everything you post, because I find myself agreeing with what you say quite often. This isn't one of those times, but I'm not going to stoop to ridicule and insult. I understand where you're coming from and agree on the assertion that we need to ask questions, and there's a lot of weird shit going on with respect to 9/11.

But the alternate theories for 9/11 are often presented with such flimsy evidence that it's hard to take the theories seriously, and so people just end up pooh-poohing every single possibility, even when one might be more rooted in fact than the others.

I have to throw in my towel with Schwartz here. People are way more terrified of the idea that their government might not be in control or have any fucking clue what they're doing, which this administration has proved time and time again.

Yep. See also: UFOlogists, ghost hunters, Sasquatch enthusiasts and the religious.

It's not about "having faith in the official story." That line of condescension misses the point entirely. It's about looking at the events with a logical normal eye and seeing what's clear. It's about accepting the answer that's given by people qualified to give it, rather than searching for a specific desired answer from those who aren't.

I'm not writing this with any sort of passion or fury, so please don't mistake any of this as violent disrespectful vitriol. This is my view of things, based on my experience with people. I'm absolutely willing to discuss it rather than blindly apply it. When I say "you," I more mean conspiracy theorists in general.

That being said, I'm surprised that your view is so narrow. It is common and almost ubiquitous among conspiracy theorists that they stand to the side and comment on the "psychological comfort" of accepting the truth. Naturally, it is easier to believe what is put in front of you as the truth, to accept the obvious and move on - if that's what you want. However, if what you want is to have more ammo to rail against authority, or more evidence that the world isn't as it seems, or reasons to believe that there is design behind all of the events in the world, then it is easy - or at least more fun/provocative/stimulating/satisfying - to accept a different "truth" that is put in front of you.

I'm sorry, this is nothing more than a "truth" that is being placed in front of you. The film is not a thorough, well-considered argument or even a narrative that makes sense. It possesses all the logic of a villain's plan-revealing monologue. But again, if you want it to be true - then it's easy to accept what's been put in front of you - just as those you have criticized have done.

The difference isn't about actually being/right, but what psychological need that acceptance is fulfilling. Instead of being able to take comfort and move on, which is what Average Joe wants, you get your own unique satisfactions. Now you have "power" over Average Joe, you see things he doesn't, you question things he doesn't - this makes you superior to him. Also, you can see design in the terrible chaotic events of the world. People have almost universally been searching for that for thousands of years - you've just found it somewhere other than Christ or Allah.

I'm not saying the WTC conspiracy has become your God (that's silly), but rather the overall massively skeptical conspiracy thought-process and world view provides a similar comfort. Finally, it provides a wonderfully effective and satisfying defense mechanism - the "me against the world" mentality. It has served nearly every person in the world well during their teenage years and it is similar circumstance here. Very much like I said above - it is a sort of faux power over everyone else by feeling like the victim. It also serves to shove the burden of proof on everyone else - very handy. It's amazingly similar how much it is like the "oh so victimized/ the world is out to get me" attitude so many Christians take.

Not to mention, it's college students who buy into this kind of shit and fall into this category the most - and we don't know shit about shit.

My apologies that this got so wordy.

EDIT: Schartz, Phil, & Jake conveyed one of my main points quite well, just above me.

Only a slavish automaton would think airplanes can smash into buildings. Just because everybody else is saying that!

I think conspiracies are attractive for people because they *don't* want to believe it was as explained. People didn't want to believe some lone nut shot JFK, that it had to be bigger than that. I subscribe to the rule of Occam: what's more believable (granted, both are terrible): that a group of terrorists banded together to hijack planes and fly them into buildings OR our incompetent government evacuated both buildings (oh and building 7) to plant explosives throughout - without anyone in the buildings knowing and then when the planes hit they waited for like 40 minutes before deciding to detonate? Oh and how is United 93 explained? I know some people fall into the WTF IT WUZ SHOT DOWN! camp, but why bother? If the conspiracy is working well, why not crash it into the capitol (as was the theory)?

Keep in mind again, this is the same government that can't do shit correctly with our most recent wars. They couldn't handle Katrina at all. They can't find a dude in a cave on dialysis who planned this shit. Yet everything came together on 9/11! There really must have been a lot of high-fiving going on.

That brings another issue with the conspiracy theory. Why bother with the planes at all? If they planted explosives, couldn't they have simply blamed the explosives on terrorists instead of timing plane crashes to the demolition? That seems like they went awfully far out their way.

For that matter, if the entire point of the event was to provide motivation to attack the middle east, and if this administration is so wizardly at faking and hiding evidence, couldn't they have come up with more positive justification for the war? They couldn't successfully pin the thing on Saddam after the fact. If they orchestrated 9/11 just for that purpose, that homework should all have been done ahead of time, shouldn't it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IergOYj63oE

If I can reverse a question you've asked several times, why not? I'm willing to get down to a nuts and bolts discussion of this, if the topic is something so specific.

99% of all conspiracy theories hatched are bullshit. But automatically discounting the idea that government conspiracys can take place and saying the officially recognized version is always the truth is shortsighted and strikes me as the behavior of a cartoon character who when confronted with danger shuts their eyes and tries to imagine it doesn't exist. Why? Because there's a long, looooong historical precedence for things of that nature occuring. In this country, in other countries, all the way down the annals of history.

It's gotta simply be a matter of standard human behavior, being in a position of power, having tons of resources at one's control, wanting to get something done very badly, but being blocked for various reasons and thus having to maneuver things to go your way out of the public eye.

I'm sure people will respond better than me on this but I'll throw in my two pennies.

After 9/11, laws needed to be changed. They needed to be updated to the times, no one should question that. To the extent in which they were changed however, should be questioned. They went overboard, they were like scared little children in a candy store grabbing at everything they could hold before the timer went out worried that they wouldn't have enough. What needs to happen is those laws need to be reeled in (not eradicated) but enough to hold up the sprit of our Constitution and morality.

As to disrespect the victims of this tragedy, how do you think they feel with crack-pots with cockamamie stories coming out of the woodwork accusing their loved ones of being either incompetent or complacent with the tragedy? That is what is going on. Saying there were bombs planted in the WTC to bring the buildings down while employees went in there day after day after day and not noticing large explosives being planted right under their nose can't be very respectful to their memory, can it? It is an affront to our sense of morality to lend credence to these claims with paper-thin rationale and flimsy evidence, while questioning the truth is never a bad thing, how you go about it AND to what extent most definitely is.

This is how I feel the whole thing went down(no pun intended). Like others have said, the Bush administration is too damn incompetent to pull off something on this scale.

I'll watch the video though. I really love conspiracy stuff, and I've always respected yt's opinions on the boards. I just rarely chime in here(this forum), because I basically feel outgunned by some of you smart bastards.

I don't see any violent reactions in this thread, yt. I think most people have been respectful enough towards you to at least give this documentary a try. That probably wouldn't have been the case if it had been someone else posting this doc and leveling some of accusations you have against those who dismiss it. I even struggled my way through the rest of it out of respect to you. But when I asked you if you were joking with this thread, I was being completely serious. Because, honestly, I can't see how someone who I have no problems saying is far more informed and intelligent than I couldn't apply common sense to the "evidence" presented in what you posted.

I agree entirely with this part, and it was a major failing on the part of the government for doing so and the public for allowing it. We got scared, and behaved like children, and I can only hope that a lot of the damage to our liberties and legal system can still be repaired.

That said, I don't think it indicates that the administration had anything to do with planning the attack. Rather, I see it as par for the course for this White House. They were confronted with an unprecedented national tragedy, and they reacted with the standard mixture of opportunism, disregard for the public welfare and rule of law, greed, delusion, partisanship, and contempt for very idea of accountability that they brought to Iraq, Afghanistan, Katrina, election campaigns, the DOJ...and so on.

I'm the last person looking to give the Bush administration a pass on anything, but as disgusted as I am by the shamelessness of their behavior, they really acted exactly as we (or at least the Constitution) expects the executive branch to; they seized every opportunity to grab as much power and dodge as much scrutiny as they possibly could. There were other safeguards that failed us, though. A legislature so timid and/or partisan it wasn't merely afraid to exercise its checks and balances but downright eager to pass off their responsibilities to the executive. A media that collectively abandoned the pursuit of objectivity for the veneer of balance. And a public that didn't want to engage in tough issues and was all too willing to surrender their rights the moment their lives were threatened.

I understand, or at least I think I do, why all these entities acted as they did. It's scary and disappointing, but it doesn't require a single mastermind pulling all the strings to get us to the point we're at; just a predictably corrupt government and a citizenry too frightened to get mad at it. I'm not sure democracy can work without anger at the government.

Justice for the victims is another area where we've failed following the attacks. I put in the "disregard for the public welfare and rule of law" category as far as why it hasn't been a priority for the Bush administration. They have said a lot of nice things about them, for what its worth.

If the "something to get done" was invading Iraq (and if not, then what?), orchestrating 9/11 was ridiculously more complicated than the lies that got us into the war. The conspiracy was an order of magnitude more difficult than the wheels it was meant to grease.

None of those "black ops", obviously, would ever approach the scope and magnitude of destroying the Twin Towers. Also, the Iraq invasion--which, on its own, actually was a conspiracy--is two years younger than 9/11 and no one is seriously arguing these days that it wasn't bullshit.