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Ashes Of Time Redux

post #1 of 19
5/20/08 at 9:25am
Thread Starter 
First reviews from Cannes:

http://www.screendaily.com/ScreenDai...tStoryID=39049

http://www.boston.com/ae/movies/blog..._day_7_wo.html
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post #2 of 19
5/21/08 at 4:57am
Sony Classics has an uninspired placeholder page for it.

They better not have screwed up the music. That's my biggest fear about this. Sony Classics fumbling the marketing is a secondary concern.
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post #3 of 19
5/21/08 at 9:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie-wanker View Post
Sony Classics fumbling the marketing is a secondary concern.
And I reckon nobody's going to see this thing except for the die-hards, like us.

The movie didn't make any money the first time, even in Hong Kong.
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post #4 of 19
5/26/08 at 5:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malmordo View Post
That may be the first time I've seen someone refer to this film as one of Wong Kar Wai's most remarkable films. I'm looking forward to getting to see this in a nice dvd, assuming it gets a new edition in the US.
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post #5 of 19
10/4/08 at 11:21am
Thread Starter 
In limited release next Friday, Oct. 10.
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post #6 of 19
10/4/08 at 1:30pm
I don't know if it's a better cut, or I could actually just finally see the thing right, even with a digital projection of a DVD/Burn. Expect my interview with WKW this week.
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post #7 of 19
10/4/08 at 3:39pm
Awesome. Did you already do the interview and are waiting to type the bastard up or is it upcoming?

I see Ashes redux is coming to the Detroit Film Theater, gonna finally get to see this film.
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post #8 of 19
10/4/08 at 5:31pm
Did it two weeks ago or so. All the about the typing.
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post #9 of 19
10/4/08 at 7:38pm
Ashes of Time is easily my favorite Wong Kari-Wai film. Some might say that it's convoluted, and they'd be right (there's like eight main characters and most of them have slept with each other). But I like that it's convoluted. Every time you watch it you pick-up on something new (after watching it for the sixth time, I think I've finally gotten all of the byzantine character relationships sorted out). I hope the Wong-Kar Wai interview gives me something to look for the next time I see the movie.
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post #10 of 19
10/5/08 at 8:17pm
Thread Starter 
I was hoping Kar-Wai would restore at least part of Joey Wong's performance, but he doesn't appear to have done so. It's basically the same movie, only with a few trims and a new score.
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post #11 of 19
10/5/08 at 8:36pm
New credits, and yeah, modest tweaks. I believe the running time is now shorter.
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post #12 of 19
10/5/08 at 8:48pm
Brigitte Lin's Mandarin sync-sound dialogue recordings replace the dubbed Cantonese dialogue used in the real version of the film. A couple of action sequences have also been completely removed, or so I've read.

I'm not excited about the changes made. All I wanted was a decent ASHES OF TIME DVD. I didn't want WKW to go all George Lucas and start "fixing" things that weren't broken. If the eventual DVD has the original Hong Kong cut in decent quality that's all I really ask. But there's not a snowball's chance in hell of that, because that would mean a long-missing Hong Kong classic made it to a respectable DVD without getting screwed up in the process, which of course could never happen. I'll go see this but it's really more out of a sort of obligation than anything else.
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post #13 of 19
10/5/08 at 9:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie-wanker View Post
Brigitte Lin's Mandarin sync-sound dialogue recordings replace the dubbed Cantonese dialogue used in the real version of the film.
Didn't know that - thank you! Big fan of Lin's (hoping she comes out of retirement one of these years).

Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie-wanker View Post
A couple of action sequences have also been completely removed, or so I've read.
I've always thought these scenes were a mess because of the lousy step-printing effects. If Kar-Wai just stripped a lot of it out of the scenes and focused more on the choreography, the action would be more forceful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie-wanker View Post
I'm not excited about the changes made. All I wanted was a decent ASHES OF TIME DVD.
I don't mind the print on the Mei Ah edition. I think for a time the movie was supposed to look rough and ragged. I just can't stand the subtitles - terrible translation, and I have to squint to read the damn things.
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post #14 of 19
10/9/08 at 9:02pm
Thread Starter 
Brigitte Lin at the NYFF screening:

http://hkmdb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=49454
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post #15 of 19
10/11/08 at 11:41am
Thread Starter 
I caught up with REDUX yesterday at the Lincoln Center Cinema in NYC. This new version omits a number of shots and brief scenes that I felt were important to the original, and I think the film suffers without them.

Among the missing:


SPOILER ALERT





-- Ouyang Feng (Leslie Cheung)'s opening narration explaining why he's chosen the path of a cold-blooded assassin, and the accompanying action scene that illustrates his skills as a swordsman. Also gone is Huang Yaoshi (Leung Ka Fai) starting an avalanche to ward off a gang of bandits.

-- During the tavern scene when Yin (Brigitte Lin) attacks Huang Yaoshi, two shots of a cat leaping onto a wooden door, holding on by its claws, then slipping and dropping to the floor.

-- During the Blind Swordsman (Tony Leung Chiu Wai)'s fight with the bandits, a shot of our hero cutting through a bamboo ceiling and jumping onto the roof to continue the battle.

-- After the Blind Swordsman's death, a brief scene of Huang Yaoshi in the tavern with narration. A solid and necessary coda. In REDUX Kar-Wai follows the death scene with a chapter break, then moves to Hong Qi (Jacky Cheung)'s introduction.

-- A crucial (albeit brief) scene of Hong Qi, looking healthy and happy following his near-death experience, reclining in a hammock while his wife feeds him rice and sings. Important scene in illustrating that Hong Qi is able to recover because of the love and support of his wife, as well as the strong devotion that the two have to each other. Without it, as in REDUX, we don't know how or why Hong Qi is suddenly well and able to press on, nor do we get a sense of the differences between Hong Qi and his wife, and the other (emotionally damaged) couples in the rest of the story.

-- I might also point out that the music in this version is problematic, particularly in the overwrought cello solos that sound as if Kar-Wai didn't have enough faith in his actors to convey the proper emotion. There is also music in REDUX where there shouldn't be any. Carina Lau's performance is extraordinary, and the moment when she prepares to face her husband after a long separation (before she sees that it is actually Huang Yaoshi) one of the highlights of the film. For the 1994 version Kar-Wai had the good sense to let it play out in silence, but in REDUX he adds music and diminishes a lot of the power.

-- Much of the closing montage is missing, including the final duel of Ouyang Feng and Hong Qi, and Yin laughing as she notices the severity of her wounds.

-- Maggie Cheung went unbilled in the original and was not pictured in the ads. For REDUX she receives "special appearance" credit.
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post #16 of 19
10/11/08 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malmordo View Post
I'm re-posting the following from Andre's Wong Kar-Wai Interview thread...

I caught up with REDUX yesterday at the Lincoln Center Cinema in NYC. This new version omits a number of shots and brief scenes that I felt were important to the original, and I think the film suffers without them.

Among the missing:


SPOILER ALERT





-- Ouyang Feng (Leslie Cheung)'s opening narration explaining why he's chosen the path of a cold-blooded assassin, and the accompanying action scene that illustrates his skills as a swordsman. Also gone is Huang Yaoshi (Leung Ka Fai) starting an avalanche to ward off a gang of bandits; similarly helpful, particularly to westerners unfamiliar with the novel, in establishing his character as a warrior of extraordinary power and skill.

-- During the tavern scene when Yin (Brigitte Lin) attacks Huang Yaoshi, two shots of a cat leaping onto a wooden door, holding on by its claws, then slipping and dropping to the floor.

-- During the Blind Swordsman (Tony Leung Chiu Wai)'s fight with the bandits, a shot of our hero cutting through a bamboo ceiling and jumping onto the roof to continue the battle.

-- After the Blind Swordsman's death, a brief scene of Huang Yaoshi in the tavern, with narration (a strong coda to this section of the film). In REDUX Kar-Wai follows the death scene with a chapter break, then moves to Hong Qi (Jacky Cheung)'s introduction.

-- A crucial (albeit brief) scene of Hong Qi, looking healthy and happy following his near-death experience, reclining in a hammock while his wife feeds him rice and sings. Important scene in illustrating that Hong Qi is able to recover because of the love and support of his wife, as well as the strong devotion that the two have to each other. Without it, as in REDUX, we don't know how or why Hong Qi is suddenly well and able to press on, nor do we get a sense of the differences between Hong Qi and his wife, and the other (emotionally damaged) couples in the rest of the story.

-- I might also point out that the music in this version is problematic, particularly in the overwrought cello solos that sound as if Kar-Wai didn't have enough faith in his actors to convey the proper emotion. There is also music in REDUX where there shouldn't be any. Carina Lau's performance is extraordinary, and the moment when she prepares to face her husband after a long separation (before she sees that is actually Huang Yaoshi) one of the highlights of the film. For the 1994 version Kar-Wai had the good sense to let it play out in silence, but in REDUX he adds music and diminishes a lot of the power.

-- Much of the closing montage is missing, including the final duel of Ouyang Feng and Hong Qi, and Yin laughing as she notices the severity of her wounds.
Thanks for a comprehensive accounting of the damage. I wonder if we'll ever really know what was lost to Hong Kong's horrible film preservation practices, and what was lost to the whims of the director? Certainly the score falls into the second category, as does the the digital color boosting.

It's peculiar - the trailer for ASHES OF TIME seems to have been better cared for than the film itself, judging from the gorgeous looking presentation of it on the IN THE MOOD FOR LOVE Criterion disc. That almost never happens, HK trailers tend to look like they got stored in a dumpster. Instead it seems that that's where they were keeping ASHES OF TIME.

And also - THE EAGLE SHOOTING HEROES, a not-all-that-highly-regarded parody of ASHES, made and owned by the same people at the same time as the movie it parodies, seems to have survived just fine. Why this goofy comedy was better preserved than its more prestigious fraternal twin brother (or sister if you prefer) is something else I suspect we'll never know.
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post #17 of 19
10/11/08 at 3:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie-wanker View Post
Why this goofy comedy was better preserved than its more prestigious fraternal twin brother (or sister if you prefer) is something else I suspect we'll never know.
It might have something to do with EAGLE-SHOOTING HEROES being a box-office success - other than that, I have no idea. I found it to be an astoundingly unfunny movie, though in all fairness there were jokes that went right over my head thanks to crappy subtitles (I would certainly welcome a redux in that area) and my unfamiliarity with the novel. Brigitte is as cute as a button, though, and it's interesting to see Jacky Cheung play a lighter, more comical Hong Qi.
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post #18 of 19
4/24/09 at 6:24pm
This film sure is purty. I mean exceptionally so. But it made very little sense. I need to rewatch it sober.
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post #19 of 19
4/28/09 at 7:35pm
Yeah, stunningly beautiful movie, really glad I got it on Blu-Ray (also great looking in HD: the sea at Cannes behind interviewees in the special features.)

And I have to say, perhaps it was just being overly intimidated (I have a pretty hard time understanding what's going on in Wong Kar Wai movies most of the time, so the idea of a "difficult" WKW storyline seemed hella daunting), but I was pleasantly surprised that I was able to follow the plot without much difficulty. Yeah there's a lot of characters, but their storylines are for the most part pretty neatly divided by the movie's episodic nature, and while I'm sure being acquainted with the source text would add layers of meaning/irony to the movie, I did perfectly fine without. As far as epic wuxia goes, I found the characters in Tsui Hark's Seven Swords much harder to keep track of.
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