"Sex and the City" made me a slut!

I think you're right but I hope you aren't. The image of a grown man with too much pomade in his hair and dressed like a nine-year-old on his way to Sunday school wrestling Sex and the City boxed sets out of the grasp of a feral teenager is just too hilarious.

Lisa! Get in here. What'd you say about women who took SATC as some sort of Bible?

She also got cancer because of Samantha.

Speaking for the estrogen crowd, this story is a bunch of BULLSHIT. Saying that watching SATC made you a slut is right on par with saying GTA IV will spawn a rash of school shootings. Stop blaming other people and take accountability for your own shortcomings. As for this stupid fucked up cum bucket, she's a whore because she chose to be. SJP didn't spread this skank's legs. SHE DID.

Well said, Harley. Now, if you'll excuse, I gotta go jack myself a car and blow some shit up. Should have a six star wanted level by about 3PM! Look for me on the news!

Bingo. This is no different than the idiots who say they won't let their kids listen to heavy metal because they'll kill themselves or go on a shooting rampage. It's bullshit, it's not taking responsibility for your own actions. Hopefully, Diva's right, and this is just a marketing ploy.
Well, exactly. I've now said it a couple of times in the threads floating around here, and it bears repeating in this one: While Diva's probably right, it's probably a publicity stunt, any woman who truly does take SATC as a manual for how to live your life, or who thinks that's how women in NY really live, is a fucking idiot.

Let me tell you something - while I am a fan of the show, there is exactly ONE thing from the entire six seasons that I saw and said, "That is cool! I want it!" And that is a pink David Bowie "Aladdin Sane" tee shirt that Carrie was wearing while painting her apartment. So far, it eludes me till this day.

Never seen an episode. Probably never will now that I know that my virtue would be at risk.

Wow...that's pretty sexy.

SHIELD YOUR EYES< IT"S INFECTIOUS.

I fucking hate the terms 'slut' and 'whore' for women who dare to enjoy sex anyway.

Sex is totally fucking awesome, totally fucking fun and consenting grownups can do whatever the hell they want to each other - Im so fucking tired of people with major fucking hangups that they hide under the guise of some bullshit faux-'morality' trying to apply those to others who dare to enjoy themselves and be open about daring to enjoy and engage in one of the best fucking things the human experience has to offer.

Thats not a barb pointed at anyone in particular, I just thought this was as good a thread as any to get that off my chest.

Sex is ace and if a girl loves it good fucking on her.

B-b-b-but Rain Dog, how else are we Americans supposed to keep oppressing and condescending to women with our ass-backwards Puritanical double standards?!?

To be fair, she does have this line in the article that makes her seem a little more sane:

"It wasn't 'Sex and the City's' fault. I love the show, but I think it made it a little easier to justify my behavior."

I really, REALLY love you guys a lot. Not in that way. But really, really huge love for you both. I mean, this was the point I tried making over in the sex forum - we had the "Rugby" thread hopping at a pretty fair rate for a couple of weeks this past fall, I think. If I recall, there were about two or three threads hopping at the same time with plenty of pictures of nude women in that forum. But the minute pictures of nude guys started go to up, oooh, believe me, there were a few "issues", let's just say. A few of the "Wow, that's so gross! That's nasty!" posts went up immediately. First of all, it's the Sex forum, so deal with it.

Second and most importantly, thanks for the HUGE double standard. It's okay for guys to want to look at naked women, but if a woman wants to look at a naked man, it's "gross." The naked female form? "Hot". The naked male form? "Disgusting.". Which I completely don't get - I happen to think that guys look fantastic naked - THAT body part doesn't disgust me in the least. And it does bothers me when I hear talk like that coming from guys. But it really bugs me in particular when I hear that coming from other women. Because I think women are conditioned to think that you'll be thought of as more ladylike if you don't enjoy seeing a naked man. If you like to take a look, be prepared for that rousing chorus of "EWWWW!!!" assaulting your eardrums. I remember the first time I ever mentioned to a few female friends that I thought the penis was a beautiful organ. They looked like they were ready to vomit. If I recall, there was one protest of "Please - I'm trying to eat!" I'd really love to be a fly on the wall for a conversation among men, where one of them mentions what great breasts a woman has, only to have the rest of them go, "Ewwww! Now I have to bleach my brain!"

And this is not to get all, "Oh, I'm so much more open minded than you guys are!" on anyone. This is simply pointing out a still huge glaring double standard going on to this day. A woman is supposed to be fine with being sexual for a man, but she's not supposed to enjoy any sexual feelings of her own. If she does, she's a slut. If a man wants to have sex with a woman, well, shucks, he's just doing what men do! But that woman he's having sex with? She's a whore if she enjoys it. It's fine for her to get naked and spread her legs for that guy, but she'd better not say that it was fun for her too.

Rant over.

Personally, I use one hand to shield my eyes from seeing the man when I'm watching porn...

THANK YOU!!! I agree 100% with every word.

The CHUD ladies are totally going to change the world and fight double standards. Yay for penis.

I've never understood it either, but at some point it was established as a "rule" that men's primitive reptile brains are turned on by bouncing boobies, while women get off on fantasy and imagination.

I've never understood this. Is it that they don't want to look "slutty" and show that they indeed appreciate the cock, or they're actually disgusted by it? To be blunt, women who can barely mask their disgust and contempt for the penis aren't good lays, to say the least.

Amen.

I was tempted to quote this and respond with a QFT only, because you've nailed it.

It's a strange, strange place to be in. Even with guys who are friends and know the woman pretty well, guys who talk about sex/porn/whatever freely, who are constantly rating physiques or have no qualms about picking up a woman whenever they can (or wishing they could) - when a woman pipes up about her sexuality, sometimes (not always, but sometimes), there will be an awkward pause.

Or God forbid, the topic turns to "so how many people have you slept with?" And that question is a minefield. How many is too many? It always makes me angry when a guy is talking about someone he's interested in and throws in the, "but she's slept with X number of people, so maybe not/she won't be a keeper/etc." Why is it okay for him to sleep with say... 20 women in a year, but not for her? Why is that a badge of honor for him, but not for her?

But anyway, I mainly just want to say that this is exactly right, Lisa, and thank you for posting it.

I don't get that either.

Whoa whoa whoa...20 a year? That's a lot for a guy too. This sounds like a sexist thing to say, but anecdotally, if a woman wants to have sex, she can, especially if she's not picky (I'm just saying). Doesn't work that way for guys. (ETA: no matter how much equality there is, the burden is still mostly on guys to do the picking up. Women can patiently wait and they WILL be approached. If a guy isn't aggressive about these things he's the proverbial 40-year-old virgin.) If a guy has sex with 20 women in a year I want to know how the fuck he accomplished that, seriously.

Because boy parts are less prone to being distended and floppy than girl parts. Didn't we talk about this in chat last night with respect to cougars? :P

Because once a woman surpasses the 20-man mark, her hoo-ha becomes a Sarlacc pit? Because guys don't understand vaginas? It's all way confusing.

I've never really understood the double-standard either, and I never will. If a friend wants to talk about her recent sportfucking spree, have at it. Sexuality is simultaneously an awesome and a hilarious thing, and for people to treat it as anything different is a disservice to people who actually get laid without hating it. I'm pointing the finger at you, Fundamentalist Christians.

"Sex and the City" made me start dressing in Prada.

Seriously, I want to print out that rant and hand it out to random guys on the street it's so good.

I think it's a matter of conditioning for both men and women, which probably starts around middle school. Both genders are taught to be insecure about their sexuality in various ways.

Men seem to be constantly bombarded with the idea that they need to be super macho assholes who have sex with various loose women constantly, along with an intense fear of being thought of as gay or effeminate. There's nothing more unmanly than needing to prove how manly you are all the time, really unattractive. Honestly I think men these days have problems embracing their sexuality just as much as women do.

I'd like it if men realized they're more manly and sexy when they respect women, aren't afraid to show their feminine side, and aren't homophobic. I mean, if you're a heterosexual guy who's truly comfortable in your own skin it shouldn't matter if you catch a glimpse of another guys penis or even wear a dress for a day or something. If you're a heterosexual guy you will remain a heterosexual guy, it's okay. Men who are secure and comfortable like that are a million times hotter to me than men who live in fear of being called gay or are freaked out by the fact that girls have needs too.

20 was just an arbitrary number I pulled out of the air. Maybe that was a little too high.

But when you say that a man can't have sex if he wants to, I don't think that's necessarily the case. Or at least not cut and dried as it sounds. The same caveat that you added to the woman wanting to have sex - "especially if she's not picky" - could be used with a guy, also. I have several friends who could be out getting laid way more often, if they weren't so picky.

I see where you're coming from, though, and it all plays in. Women are to be won, the passive member. If a woman is out there actively pursuing men, even if her goal is only to find one she really likes, she's gonna get that slut/whore label, just the same as if she just sat back and just slept with however many guys suited her fancy.

I thought we were talking about ooky stomachs, but maybe that has something to do with the vaginas stretching out of shape?

I was recently involved in a debate with a few other guys about California legalizing gay marriage and was astounded at the level of homophobia and bizarre comments about homosexuality.

One of them even said "I'll just go back to pretending that we're all regular guys who just aren't fucking interested in gay parades."

What the hell is that supposed to mean, and why the hell should it matter in the first place? Christ.

I would have asked, but after a remark that "Gay people aren't ruining the country, it's the gang bangers and the illegal immigrants from south of the border", I bowed out of the discussion.

I hate the fact that this country's way too concerned with whose what is going where and how often. We're really, really, really fucked up as a culture when it comes to sex.

Well, yes, to my way of thinking, that's it on the nose. Women have been conditioned to not appreciate sex, to not talk about, not want it, and if you do, you're a slut. "Good girls don't" - that's the mind-set still being slung around today. I don't think they're actually disgusted by it, no. It's just that you're not supposed to talk about it nor are you supposed to enjoy it or get turned on by it. Your more "acceptable" according to the way society views women. You're the girl he can bring home to mother, not some horrible whore who likes looking at dicks. Pssh! Can't have your family meeting a girl who's like that!
Oh, Jake, my friend ... you really do just rock. Honest to god. As a 44 year old woman, can I tell you how much I fucking hate the term "cougar"? Not the term itself, but what it symbolizes. Because yeah, if you think the prevailing double-standard is that women in general better not enjoy sex? I've got news for you - women past 35 had REALLY better not have sex! You'd better fucking shut it down and sew it up, grandma. I'll tell you, it's frowned upon for enjoying sex even more once you hit 35 and beyond, even more so than younger women. And not just me, of course - I see it happen all the time. It's like - there's that whole sexual double standard about women in general. But there's a big huge double-double standard against women over 35. Honestly, it's tough enough just simply dating for women my age. But to have it held against us that we also enjoy sex does make things tougher.

I'm guilty of using the term just because it's so frequently thrown around that people are familiar with what it entails. I was kinda taken aback when summer asked me to explain it, then I started thinking about the mindset behind it and was like "Hmm...okay, never really looked at it from that perspective." It's kind of a given that male/female sex drives can be inversely proportional (there's probably science out there, can't be arsed to find it), but the fact that I've heard more misogynistic shit from 40+ year-old guys than I have from people around my age kinda speaks truth to the matter.

Just wanted to pipe in and say I knew what I cougar was, it's just that I wanted to discuss the label. If it was just an age thing - oh, look, that 40 YO woman is seeing a younger man - COUGAR!, or if it was the actual "hunting down of younger prey" that equalled COUGAR!

It's probably a bit telling that there's not a male counterpart to that terminology, and that most older men are... well, perhaps not applauded (or perhaps they are), but certainly not labeled a slightly derogatory animal name, when they go out and do the same thing.

We need to get that printed on some t-shirts, tank tops, and panties. I'm still a bit a of a prude and would probably only wear the panties, but still... Quote of the day to Werewolf Girl?

I believe that a woman's sex drive is at its peak at around the 30ish range.

Speaking of which, slight derail, but is a 'cougar' (seriously, where did this term come from?) any older woman who dates/sleeps around/whatever with a younger dude? Or is there a certain age one must be before that title can be applied. I ask because I playfully call my girlfriend, who's 4 years older than me, 'cougar' all the time, while she calls me my "young and pretty thing". Just wondering if that'd be an accurate statement or if I should just revert back to calling her 'cradle-robber'?

It's generally applied to the 35 YO and up women. Not before.

And usually, the 35-40 YO are called "baby cougars".

And that was the point of my discussion with Jake and Anderson - is it the age that automatically activates the label, or is it the INTENT OF SNARING A HELPLESS YOUNG MAN that activates it?

There isn't a male counterpart because it's accepted that that's usually the way things are. Older guys, younger girls. Taking it back to caveman times, when survival was the pre-eminent mode for everyone, are you, the young and fertile female, going to forge a life with an untested, young nobody who doesn't have any assets, some newb hunter, or are you going to go for the older man, the chief hunter, who can survive and support you far better?

I never knew where the term came from. But since I know a term for a younger woman is "kitten" as in "sex kitten", I just assumed that "cougar" would logically be the term for an older woman.]
I think a little of both, really. If anything, it's like trying to figure out which came first, the chicken or the egg.

Gotcha.

Also, older men are definitely applauded by guys both old and young for bagging younger women (and men, I have a gay friend who's notorious for picking up younger guys and his buddies compliment him all the time on his "boys"), and there's definitely not a prevailing term for it.

(eta: this is in response to Doc Happenin, I should've quoted.)

Yeah, I see the evolutionary/anthropological evidence for it, and you could also add that, biologically speaking, it'd be better for a female to get knocked up by a lot of different viable candidates, for the health of the species...

But we're not talking about procreation anymore, just sex. And we're not in caveman times...

How long is it going to take for attitudes to change to fit with modern reality? I think that's the core issue of the debate.

Of course there's no derogatory term. It's not frowned upon, or - correction - it's not nearly as frowned upon as an older woman trying to hook up with a younger guy.

I've also heard the term "cougar" used as a general term for older women who still just simply enjoy being sexual. Summer, have you heard that? If a 40ish woman still has a sex drive and, moreso, isn't ashamed of it, I've heard the term "cougar" used - even if the men in question are her age. I do agree it has more to do with younger men, but it's being more broadly applied now to include an older woman who still likes sex, period.

QFT.

Proof that watching SATC makes you gay? ;-)

Jake on the older gay men picking up younger gay men, there is terminology for that as well...... Chicken=young gay male. Chicken hawk=older gay man.

Never heard of "chickenhawk" used in that context before. Now I can bag on him about it. Thanks!

I agree, but it's a long slow road to change the attitude. It's only in the last fifty years of human development, out of millions as some primitive man and before that as just primates walking around, that we are able to have sex without the ever constant fear of getting pregnant. It's hard to knock several million years of evolution out of place in such a small time. So, alas, we're still kind of stuck with the biological/genetic impulse still there in both sexes. The need to procreate still affects our actions, and to an older man, who is more likely to be able to produce a lot of children? Plus, she looks appealing, which to a more visually stimulated male, has an added perks and speaks well of her own genes. A female of the species will seek out the best provider, which has gradually changed over times from biggest and strongest to who can support a great life and now, at last, to love.

Frankly, and maybe it's just me in these modern times, but Ma Nature or whatever fucked up when she/he made sex an integral part of procreation. I think a K-Paxian way of doing it would be better suited, where it's something to be done and you get it over with, and it hurts like hell.

Might have less to do with age and more to do with generation, too. My dad always thought it was weird that I hung out with a mixed gender crowd in high school instead of all guys. For a lot of men in his generation, girls were strictly for dating; you didn't just hang out with them socially. And that kind of thinking followed that generation into the workplace, as well.

It's a lot easier to maintain gender stereotypes (both misogynistic and just sort of naively reductive) when you compartmentalize people that way. Generally speaking, the less mysterious the other gender is, the better we'll all be.

I guess it's also just interesting to note how women are assigned feline names (kitten, cougar, pussy) and men are assigned canine names (dog, pup, wolf).

And you're right, it's hard to discern. Let's say if you (or I) were dating a 25 year old, with no thought of actively pursuing the young studs, in general, for our own pleasure, I don't think that would make either of us a "cougar", but I suppose, to some, that it would.

ETA: Lisa, I haven't heard that term used in that way, yet. But I'm sure I will... it's not that large of step to equate sexual predation of younger men into sexual predation (I'm using that word, predation, to loosely mean someone who wants sex and seeks it out), in general. And it's an icky term. :/

I can guarantee that he knows the term (ok, if he doesn't I will be completely shocked).

Also, since this is a movie board. To tie a movie into the discussion of chicken hawks......

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109410/

Unless you're an older gay guy! Then you're a bird, for some reason.

Very interesting that the pursue-ee, in the case of both the chickenhawk and the cougar, is a young man.

Is an older lesbian pursuing young lesbians a cougar, or is the terminology always dependent on what's being pursued?

Yeah, I thought the distinction between older women who happen to be involved with younger men and "cougars" was that cougars were overly aggressive (although "overly" is a dangerously subjective word, I realize) and specifically into dumb, good-looking young guys.

And are cougars in it for the sport? Or actually in it for a relationship? Like, does she just want to jump some college guy or actually forge something more with him?

Good point. It's easier for people to claim that someone behaves a certain way because they're a guy/girl than it is to actually look at why that person is reacting that way.

It's strange to see how age factors into the perception of sexual predation - even older guys with younger women has a bit of an "ewww" factor to it, but for some reason people would rather hold up the concept of older women seeking younger guys as some sort of sexual deviancy.

And for the record, this is a baby cougar:


Aah, so cute!

Probably because older man=protector, not so bad. What are older women seen as? Taking away from younger women (more likely to bear children) = bad?

That is, I think the core definition of a "cougar" - the aggressiveness and the singular purpose. But, as happens with many words, it's being expanded to fit older women who sleep with younger guys (without the actual focused purpose of doing so strictly because the guys are younger and they get off on that) in general. And it seems to be expanding even farther into a term that denotes a woman 35 or older who likes sex in general...

And since the connotation of the word, in random conversation, seems to be derogative, the ever-expanding application is what I was trying to figure out in chat last night... which I guess leads back to Lisa's point (again, you speak truth, sister) that women of a certain age are not to be sexual creatures.

That's hard to say. I think that entirely depends on the people involved, regardless of the age. I think much the same could be said about anyone's relationship - are you in it for fun or do you want something? For that matter, I was in a situation like that when I was 34 and my then-boyfriend was 33.

ETA: And as Summer pointed out, the definition of "cougar" relates to the aggressiveness (you speak the truth as well, my friend!). I mean, here's the way I see it - like I said, I'm hearing the term "cougar" broadly applied to a woman over 35 who's still sexually active, or would like to remain so. By that nature, I would think that even if the man in question is also 35 and over, if the woman is doing the pursuing, she's gonna get the cougar label. I think it currently applies more to older woman/younger man, but it's slowly encompassing older women who take charge of their own sexuality.

For me personally, I'm a sucker for sexually aggressive women (less now, that I'm married Now it's womAn.). The "game" is often such exhausting futile work, that's it's awesome when the woman wants to take the seduction reins. An extensive partner history isn't really an issue (not that I want big details) as long as safe sex was practiced.

And I thought that "Cougar" was more of a stereotype based on intent and habit, like "Gold-digger". I wouldn't call a woman in a relationship with a younger man a cougar, but broad (not the derogatory term) characters you see in comedies (like Jane Seymour in WEDDING CRASHERS) are "cougars". Course, they're usually married, rich, and drunk too in the flicks. The "Mrs. Robinsons".


EDIT: To add that Jane Seymour (born Joyce Penelope Wilhelmina Frankenberg) is older than my Mom and I would totally let her hunt me like a predatory cat after a frightened gazelle.

EDIT 2: Besides "Dirty Old Man", I've often heard the general term "letch" or "lecher" used to describe older men who are after the young gals. That and "sad", and "amidst a mid-life crisis", and "my Dad".

EDIT 3: I'm not really interested in watching SATC, but if soemone could send me a link to a video of all of Kim Cattrall's sex scenes, I'd be willing to "inform my opinion".

This. All of it. I'd even fall down a few times and wallow around on the ground just so that she could catch up.