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The Untouchables

post #1 of 72
6/6/08 at 12:21am
Thread Starter 
Incredible action scenes and awesome score aside, this movie's pretty overrated. Maybe it's just my love for police procedurals, but I want to see that version of this story, as I was never really engaged in this one beyond the shootouts.

But still, its kind of fun seeing bad guys get shredded like they deserve. Last line is pretty choice, too.
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post #2 of 72
6/6/08 at 12:24am
Nah sorry its great. Now get outta here you dago bastard!
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post #3 of 72
6/6/08 at 12:25am
Thread Starter 
Oh, don't get me wrong, there's a lot to like. I don't know that I'd rank it among the classics as many do, is all.
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post #4 of 72
6/6/08 at 12:28am
They should give Connery a new Oscar every damn year for this film. Billy Drago is so oily. I love it.
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post #5 of 72
6/6/08 at 12:31am
And you could tell it was supposed to be a tragic moment when Charles Martin Smith gets killed because it has the sad saxophone music. Touchable!
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post #6 of 72
6/6/08 at 12:31am
My heart still goes into my throat during the bomb scene at the beginning and the shoot-out involving the baby carriage at the end. So goddamn good and Connery is awesome.

"That's the Chicago way, and that's how you're going to take down Capone!"

The fact that in the middle of the film they leave Chicago to essentially take part in a Revolutionary War calvary charage kicks ass.

"I want you to get this fuck where he breathes! I want you to find this nancy boy Elliot Ness, I want him dead! I want his family dead! I want his house burned to the ground! I wanna go there and piss on the ashes!"

So quotable.

"Here endeth the lesson!"
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post #7 of 72
6/6/08 at 12:39am
To this day, whenever I'm winning at a board game or video game, I tend to break out with the trash-talking "YOU GOT NAHTHING! IF YOU WERE A MAN, YOU WOULD'VE DONE IT BY NOW!"

Oh, and I have no friends.
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post #8 of 72
6/6/08 at 12:40am
Love it to death. This and TOMBSTONE are 2 of my favorite "Round up the posse and go shoot those bastards" flicks. Morricone's score is great. And De Palma has never whisked me away like he's done here. It feels so much like the anti-SCARFACE.

And because we're all quoting: "What are YOU prepared to DO?"
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post #9 of 72
6/6/08 at 12:41am
"You talk like that to me in front of my son- fuck you and your family!"
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post #10 of 72
6/6/08 at 12:52am
One of the most quotable films ever made. Every sequence is perfect for what it is. Supreme Hollywood entertainment. What's to overrate? The fact that it's borderline fascistic? That's the Chicago way.
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post #11 of 72
6/6/08 at 12:58am
A personal favorite. I think if anything it's undervalued by DePalma-philes. (Has he ever just had fun like this?) Even though he's taking the piss a bit, it works as a note perfect homage to golden hollywood action. (Rip-roaring, bombastic fun. We don't get many A list actioners this impeccably shot and stylish) Love Connery & DeNiro--but Costner's earnest performance is heart n' soul. (most quotable is right!)
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post #12 of 72
6/6/08 at 1:11am
Yeah, I don't think you're going to find a lot of agreement around here. I love this film. I love DePalma in general, and this is among my favorites. It has almost nothing to do with the actual people or events it portrays, but I don't watch movies for history lessons.
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post #13 of 72
6/6/08 at 1:14am
Watching The Untouchables for history is like eating potato chips for nutritional benefit.

It's glorified cops and robbers and nobody would try to convince you otherwise.
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post #14 of 72
6/6/08 at 10:00am
What Andre said. It's a traditional cops and robbers tale done 100% perfect in every aspect, and spiced up just the right amount by DePalma's usual shady morality.

Not enough attention has been paid to the score though. Morricone does flat out fantastic work here, and the main theme is still one of the most badass in film history.

And in the quote department:

"You got him?"
"Yeah. I got him."
"....TWO!"
"Take him."
BOOM

That moment continues to make me jump out of my fucking seat.
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post #15 of 72
6/6/08 at 10:44am
Good movie aside, I love this flick because it introduced me to Andy Garcia. He makes me want to do sexy times!
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post #16 of 72
6/6/08 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Dellamorte View Post
One of the most quotable films ever made. Every sequence is perfect for what it is. Supreme Hollywood entertainment. What's to overrate? The fact that it's borderline fascistic? That's the Chicago way.
This is what you guys get for the Chud List...

Seriously. Everything is overrated now. Didn't you hear?

My favorite moment is De Niro at the end, being held back by seemlingly the entire court house.

"What? Huh? Excuse me? You're just a big talk and a badge! You're just a big talk and a badge!" It's overacting of the finest calibar.
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post #17 of 72
6/6/08 at 10:54am
As note-perfect as this movie is, I still kinda wish a Bob-Hoskins-as-Capone version existed.
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post #18 of 72
6/6/08 at 11:00am
In no way is this movie overrated. As everyone here has already said, it's pretty much a pitch perfect cops and robbers tale, and just a cracking good film to boot. I break this out quite often, just because it's so damn entertaining. Plus, as Justin and DM have said, the score is one of Morricone's best (and the man had a shitload of great scores). It definitely deserves it's spot in the pantheon of classic films.
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post #19 of 72
6/6/08 at 11:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post
Not enough attention has been paid to the score though. Morricone does flat out fantastic work here, and the main theme is still one of the most badass in film history.
How can anyone miss it, though? I'm not a score guy in the least, and the music made a huge impression on me from the first time I saw it in the theater. It's perfectly in-your-face for this type of crime movie.

I'm not sure if it's more a big, dumb action movie imbued with intelligence via a smart script, brilliant cinematography, and deliberately over-the-top acting, or more an attempt at heightened Godfather-like drama that couldn't help but indulge in some epic gunfights, but the last thing it's trying to be is a serious police movie.

I love the scene on the border. It's as if DePalma is saying, "Look, if you haven't figured out that this story is completely unrelated to reality by now, let me confirm it for you. Just go with me here."
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post #20 of 72
6/6/08 at 11:21am
Thread Starter 
I just saw it for the first time, and plenty of my friends talked it up a ton, and I think that I was expecting something meatier (in terms of theme and character) than what I got. The Mamet credit had something to do with that, too.

I think the comparison to Tombstone is apt for this one, and I think I'd put both movies on the same tier of quality: Really good. But not Great. Which plenty of people told me The Untouchables was.

I think I have to disagree with most about the quality of the script, especially considering it's Mamet. The closest we get to Mamet really opening up is the Ness vs Capone scene on the hotel steps, but other than that his efforts seem kind of generic. De Palma's able to elevate the material with some good ol' ultraviolence, though.

I guess I'm just disappointed the the film isn't firing on just a couple more cylinders. If the writing were as rousing as the action, I think it would have pushed this movie over the edge in to a whole different territory.

But, I can't change anything. I may as well add that Ness unloading on that one dude on top of the steps near the end is one of the sweetest shotgun kills ever, probably second only to the one in A Simple Plan. Andy Garcia in the same scene is also twenty kinds of cool.
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post #21 of 72
6/6/08 at 11:25am
Oh, man, that crane shot at the very end? Chicago should pay De Palma for making it look so good.
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post #22 of 72
6/6/08 at 11:28am
The end titles are just note perfect, a great example of how a good closing theme can just be the cherry on top of a great film.

And as long as we're quoting:

"Hey, what's that you say?"
"I said that you're a lying member of a no good race."
"Much better than you, you stinking Irish pig."
"Oh, I like him."
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post #23 of 72
6/6/08 at 11:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FutekiNa, Irate Pirate View Post
I think the comparison to Tombstone is apt for this one, and I think I'd put both movies on the same tier of quality: Really good. But not Great. Which plenty of people told me The Untouchables was.
Well, this is subjective territory. Sure it's not accurate history. Neither is it Shakespeare. But (like TOMBSTONE, IMO), it's great ensemble, quotable, rousing pulp Entertainment.
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post #24 of 72
6/6/08 at 11:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
This is what you guys get for the Chud List...

Seriously. Everything is overrated now. Didn't you hear?
Everything can be overrated, though I hate that terminology. The whole point is to wage a good offense or defense. The problem with FutekiNa's arguement is that this film is as far from reality as possible. That's kinda what's great about it too, they took the mob wars to be the modern equivalent of the old west and mythologized it. Ness never lost that many men, never had a old mentor who died, had a squad of dudes, not just four, nitti wasn't thrown off a roof, etc.

I think De Palma knows that, so FutekiNa is essential suggesting that a couch is not as good as a table to eat off of.
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post #25 of 72
6/6/08 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Dellamorte View Post
Everything can be overrated, though I hate that terminology. The whole point is to wage a good offense or defense. The problem with FutekiNa's arguement is that this film is as far from reality as possible. That's kinda what's great about it too, they took the mob wars to be the modern equivalent of the old west and mythologized it. Ness never lost that many men, never had a old mentor who died, had a squad of dudes, not just four, nitti wasn't thrown off a roof, etc.
I totally agree, I'm just sick of people throwing that word around without any back-up (or, as you put it, A or D). It's become part of the CHUD zeitgeist, for better or (more than likely) worse.

What's interesting about DePalma is how seldom he dabbles in "realism" (even his earlier, gritter films like Greetings and Hi, Mom have a whimsical, fantastical quality to them) and yet how he doesn't always manage to pull off the desired effect of escaping the concept.

For example, stylistically and thematically, the Black Dhalia is somewhat similar to The Untouchables. Except I view it as a complete disaster (and I know it has its fans). It's similarly an over the top genre romp, but it doesn't resonate like The Untouchables because the "reality" of the case bogs down the story. Here, the myth of Ness outgrew the truth, which makes for a more entertaining film. The truth behind the Dhalia is more interesting than any myth that DePalma can create, mostly because at the end of the day, it's still an unsolved mystery which is more fascinating than a solved one.
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post #26 of 72
6/6/08 at 12:07pm
This is one of the films that got me into films, remember watching it at my Aunt's house when I was about 8 or 9 and just being mesmerised by the thing. Might have to go back to it on DVD (it was the 2nd DVD I ever bought about five years ago and I've only seen it once since then).

I can see the thematic links between it and Dhalia (and I admit to quite liking that film despite myself), but I think like you said Dhalia tries to ground itself too much at times. It's actually a brilliantly shot film, it's just that the material seems to evade DePalma at times, the third act comes across like DePalma doesn't know what to do with the ending of the book so he just films the ending of the book and it just doesn't work.
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post #27 of 72
6/6/08 at 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
For example, stylistically and thematically, the Black Dhalia is somewhat similar to The Untouchables. Except I view it as a complete disaster (and I know it has its fans). It's similarly an over the top genre romp, but it doesn't resonate like The Untouchables because the "reality" of the case bogs down the story. Here, the myth of Ness outgrew the truth, which makes for a more entertaining film. The truth behind the Dhalia is more interesting than any myth that DePalma can create, mostly because at the end of the day, it's still an unsolved mystery which is more fascinating than a solved one.
Great point, although I'd argue that Dhalia may have become a classic piece of modern noir if the third act had (I don't know) actually followed Elroy's novel.

Speaking of which, when the hell is "Blood's a Rover" going to be published?
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post #28 of 72
6/6/08 at 2:12pm
Thread Starter 
My complaints actually have nothing to do with the film's realism or lack thereof. I like it for what it is, but I haven't really scratched the surface of my problems with The Untouchables' story or character, which all felt to me very thinly drawn, realism or no. De Palma and Morricone make this movie, though. Without them, I could easily see this being shit. And really, the film is worth watching for De Palma's iconic shots of Chicago and Morricone's score alone. The exhilarating set pieces are a bonus.

My main problem with this film is that I never really felt like I was rooting for Ness's squad, just against Capone. The only good guy that had any depth was Connery's Malone character, with everyone else just basically being simple types (to be fair, Malone barely escapes this). Ness himself is also a pretty weakly drawn character. He says how he's "broken every law" to take down Capone, but this never really registers. He participates in the violence pretty gleefully, and he only really has one moment of doubt, and even that feels dishonest (and is invalidated a moment later when he throws Nitti off the roof). The film never really earns any sympathy for its characters, just kind of throws them at us and makes us accept them. They're the good guys, and we want them to win. Simple.

If we're going to compare this film to "mythological" westerns, I guess that I'd have to say that the best films in that genre earn a certain amount of investment in the characters on the part of the audience. Heck, even most, if not all, myths have some pretty complex and engaging characters at their centers. Hercules and Oedipus are more than just "types," for example, and I think letting stories of any kind off the hook for employing "mythological archetypes" is kind of lazy. You have to add to the archetype, which The Untouchables never does.

To me, this is what's holding the film back. It's an 8, easy. I use the word overrated because my friends kept telling me The Untouchables was a 10. It was a fun ride, with some great examples of "pure" cinema, but it never drew me in as anything more than a mere spectator. And that's one of my personal criteria for greatness, hence my stopping at "Really Good."

And, to be fair, pretty much everyone in this thread has the right attitude towards this film, so far. So, I guess I should say that The Untouchables is overrated in my personal frame of reference, with regard to what many in my real life circle of friends have said about it.
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post #29 of 72
6/6/08 at 2:34pm
It is amazing to hear from DePalma & Co. talking about how they and Paramount were so "eye-to-eye" on this film. Minus the now-legendary "De Niro vs. Hoskins" story.

My heart still sinks everytime when Oscar's killed.

Yeah....one fucking amazing film to marvel. It's definitely one of those you can't help but watch everytime it's on TV no matter what part its at.
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post #30 of 72
6/6/08 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmNerdJamie View Post
My heart still sinks everytime when Oscar's killed.
Yeah, for me, that's one of those movie moments that you hope won't have the same outcome during the latest time you watch it.

"No! Take the stairs instead!"
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post #31 of 72
6/6/08 at 5:02pm
There's no way this film is even close to being overrated. This film is one of those almost perfect movies that I never get tired of.

Oscar's death gets me every time.

"Isn't that just like a wop? Brings a knife to a gun fight. "
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post #32 of 72
6/7/08 at 7:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattioli View Post
Speaking of which, when the hell is "Blood's a Rover" going to be published?
June 2009, says Ellroy. I know, man. I know.
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post #33 of 72
7/18/08 at 4:27pm
The more I think about it, The Untouchables is one in a long-line of films where it was 100% "right place, right time and the right people involved." It just...wouldn't have been the same film with Mel Gibson as Ness and Bob Hoskins as Capone.

That's certainly no strike against either actor. But I can't image any other people possibly involved with that film.
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post #34 of 72
9/16/08 at 5:05pm
Saw this again over the weekend in full for the first time in ages, and what intrigued me most about it was trying to figure out Mamet's view towards the material. Was he trying to write what he thought was a fairly straightforward cops and robbers shoot-em-up? Was he trying to subvert conventions by turning them up? Was he writing a homage to the genre or a satire of it? Where did Mamet end and DePalma begin?

I enjoyed it a lot and can never get enough Mametian dialogue (particularly when it's being spewed by a hopped up Connery), but I found I spent more time trying to decipher intentions than simply watching the movie.
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post #35 of 72
9/16/08 at 5:14pm
That's one of the dangers inherent in being a movie nerd, though. I get accused of over-analyzing movies instead of just enjoying them. Usually by people who like Armageddon.
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post #36 of 72
9/16/08 at 5:45pm
Damn, what a great TV spot!
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post #37 of 72
9/17/08 at 2:52am
Of course, you could play that Ennio Morricone piece over a toilet cleanser commercial, and it would be great.
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post #38 of 72
9/18/08 at 5:59pm
Love it, but Carlito's way is better.
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post #39 of 72
9/18/08 at 6:36pm
So is Casablanca. So what?
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post #40 of 72
9/18/08 at 6:43pm
Goddamn Billy Drago is the shit in this as Frank Nitti.
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post #41 of 72
10/2/08 at 6:43pm
I just started watching this film for the first time in a long time. I just wanted to say it now: this score is GLORIOUS.
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post #42 of 72
10/2/08 at 9:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaybe Sapien View Post
Goddamn Billy Drago is the shit in this as Frank Nitti.
"Nice house. I said, nice house."

The thing I remember most about Untouchables is the fear I had throughout the whole movie that no character was ever safe. This is one of those movies that has a level of dread throughout it. The girl and the suitcase is a great setup, and the movie has so many instances of build-up with or without a death.

The Baseball speech. CMS's shotgun out of ammo. The knife-guy in Malone's house, followed by the gun guy outside. etc.

The camerawork really intesified these scenes, and I was literally on the edge of my seat when I saw this in the theater.
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post #43 of 72
10/3/08 at 5:14pm
This joins the number of films that are only enjoyable due to their scores.

Can't see the praise myself. Kevin Costner is just unlikable as usual, and the stairway shootout is laughably cliche. Then again, De Palma's films have never done it for me.
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post #44 of 72
3/15/09 at 7:33pm
The film looks great and I never get tired of watching it, but historically its light years from accurate. That's not to say it isn't a good movie, but sadly, though based on real people and events, its almost purely fictitious.
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post #45 of 72
3/15/09 at 7:38pm
Now why would someone with your username make a complaint like that?

You're right, it's pure fiction. There's almost nothing in it that resembles the actual events, and I've lambasted From Hell for the exact same thing. I guess that goes to show that it helps if you compile your bullshit into an actual good movie.
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post #46 of 72
3/18/09 at 11:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
Now why would someone with your username make a complaint like that?

You're right, it's pure fiction. There's almost nothing in it that resembles the actual events, and I've lambasted From Hell for the exact same thing. I guess that goes to show that it helps if you compile your bullshit into an actual good movie.

I'm totally with you on From Hell. Great movie but it tells an almost incredible to believe or probable theory on the true indentity of Jack the Ripper and the Ripper murders.
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post #47 of 72
3/18/09 at 11:54pm
I think my biggest problem with it was their boneheaded decision to structure it as a whodunnit, despite the fact that any six-year-old with catastrophic brain damage could figure out whodunnit.
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post #48 of 72
3/19/09 at 3:41pm
My problem with From Hell is that Murder by Decree is simple the much better movie. From Hell simply has no originality to it. It basically a third rate remake of a great movie.
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post #49 of 72
3/19/09 at 11:52pm
Oh, it has originality. I can't say that making the cop a psychic wasn't an original touch. It's just that the original touches were all fucking stupid.
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post #50 of 72
3/20/09 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by History Buff View Post
The film looks great and I never get tired of watching it, but historically its light years from accurate. That's not to say it isn't a good movie, but sadly, though based on real people and events, its almost purely fictitious.
And that's a fine tradition that began with Ness's own self-aggrandizing "The Untouchables" (first published in 1957).

As for "From Hell", it's not that it has the facts wrong, per se. It's that they're strung together in such a nonsensical manner that they permit an absurd--if sensational--conclusion to the Ripper's identity. But that's going to happen when you base your story on Stephen Knight's silly "The Final Solution". You may as well base it on Cornwell's equally silly "Portrait of a Killer" or the alleged Ripper diary.

And, History Buff, if you hate inaccuracies in films based on historical events, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the upcoming Public Enemies.
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