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Holy Hyperbole, Batman

post #1 of 305
6/27/08 at 6:27pm
Thread Starter 
http://chud.com/articles/articles/15...MAN/Page1.html
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post #2 of 305
6/27/08 at 6:34pm
Nice editorial. And this --

Quote:
I fear that being annoyed at over-the-top praise of a good film might hurt my opinion of the film in general ...

That's me and Tarantino. He makes good to great movies, obviously, but the incessant fanboy hyperbole that surrounds their releases sours me every time.
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post #3 of 305
6/27/08 at 6:37pm
Yeah, it's only going to get worse, so I'd write your review now or at least in the next day or so, before the crescendo becomes deafening. The way the SHH boards were today, it sounds like they're going to form a posse regardless.
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post #4 of 305
6/27/08 at 6:44pm
I'm trying to steer clear of all the post-release talk(don't want to find out too much)....I heard about the one guy putting on the level of Empire and Godfather II....As soon as I heard that I realized that the hype for this film may have just surpassed that of The Phantom Menance(Save for the geeks camping out months before the movie comes out).

I admit i'm pretty hyped up for TDK....Even went and picked up tickets for the advance showing today....But i've been a huge Batman fan since I was a child....So I can't help but get a little caught up in it....But man oh man has it gotten completely out of control.
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post #5 of 305
6/27/08 at 6:50pm
Lifelong Batfan, and I rarely if ever agree with Devin.

In this article he nails home the number one problem with these movies, and that's everyone thinking their the second coming of Christ. I love Begins as much as the next guy but I wouldn't put it in the top 10 or 50 greatest films ever concocted.

As for Dark Knight, I suspect it will be one of if not THE best movie of the year, but beyond that...we'll see.
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post #6 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
That's me and Tarantino. He makes good to great movies, obviously, but the incessant fanboy hyperbole that surrounds their releases sours me every time.
This. Absolutely.

Very nice write up, Devin. Your brief words on the film in the post-release thread had me dreading, I don't know why, but they sounded cynical or something. That dread was quashed.

Still, very much looking forward to it, but the only second coming I'll ever believe is when the big man himself gets off his lazy ass and gets down here. Until then, everything is a movie (no matter how bad or how awesome).
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post #7 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:04pm
I'm no critic or anything close to it so obviously I look at it a bit differently, but if I just like a film and others absolutely love it to no end I don't really have a problem with that.

The LotR trilogy comes to mind. I appreciate the films, they're fine but I'm not enamored by them and people who think they're the best thing ever don't change my opinion or bother me. I see the merit, it's just not particularly my thing so why should I argue with someone else who loved the piss out of a film if I liked it? Doesn't make much sense in my opinion.

When it comes to a film others are insane over and I hate, thats a different story.
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post #8 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:05pm
I'm glad Devin liked it. I'm also glad he's sticking to his guns and addressing what's WRONG with it as well as what it gets right (I haven't seen the film, yet).

As for "Nolan can't direct action": I heard this criticism everywhere, even in positive reviews, for Begins, and it took me literally about six months to understand what everyone was talking about. It comes down to a difference in filmmaking philosophy. Nolan creates completely subjective fight scenes. Now, for me, that works--I didn't even notice he was doing something that might be unsatisfying to some people because, well, I grew out of wanting to watch grown men fighting real good about, oh, twelve years ago (I'm 24).

Here's the half-way argument one could make AGAINST Nolan's style: if the fight is unwinding from Batman's perspective, maybe it SHOULD be a little more calculated and choreographed, because the character is skilled combatant. I've not heard anyone make this argument, however.
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post #9 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:11pm
Is this where I come to pre-emptively complain about The Dark Knight?

Good to see you're not letting the hype affect you and will be the first out of the gate to bitch about it. Looking forward to needless whining about it in every vaguely related article for years to come.
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post #10 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozz View Post
Is this where I come to pre-emptively complain about The Dark Knight?

Good to see you're not letting the hype affect you and will be the first out of the gate to bitch about it. Looking forward to needless whining about it in every vaguely related article for years to come.
Well... I think he said he liked it, on the whole. Which is nice. Obama will unify the right and the left, and Devin will unify the CHUD message boards!
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post #11 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:18pm

Your wrong Devin

Oscar buzz for Heath Ledger started when Michael Caine said this: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/movies/a...-stunning.html

And that was seven months ago, Devin. So, no, buzz did not start when Heath died. Certainly it has escalated since his passing, but I think that's because trailers have come out showing glimpses of Heath's apparent brilliant performance, and people from the film have singled Heath out in interviews -- before and after his death. And, of course, as the film's release date nears , naturally the hype and Oscar buzz of Heath's performance builds. The buzz would be there even if Heath was alive.

So Bale just isn't interesting in the movie? Not at all?
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post #12 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbenway View Post

Here's the half-way argument one could make AGAINST Nolan's style: if the fight is unwinding from Batman's perspective, maybe it SHOULD be a little more calculated and choreographed, because the character is skilled combatant. I've not heard anyone make this argument, however.
I think that should go without saying. What the hell was all the elite ninja training for if we don't see shit? I think the action was unsatisfactory to begin with and the editing is there to hide this fact (in begins).
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post #13 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Gittes View Post
So Bale just isn't interesting in the movie? Not at all?
Define interesting.

Everyone's picked RDJ in Iron Man as the anti Bruce Wayne... He was kind of funny. I wouldn't say interesting. I thought he was a vapid-if-brilliant rich fuck who, like all people of such a class and disposition, swap philosophical views at the drop of a hat (as long as the dropped hat affects them personally, somehow). So, define interesting.
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post #14 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Gittes View Post
Oscar buzz for Heath Ledger started when Michael Caine said this: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/movies/a...-stunning.html

And that was seven months ago, Devin. So, no, buzz did not start when Heath died. Certainly it has escalated since his passing, but I think that's because trailers have come out showing glimpses of Heath's apparent brilliant performance, and people from the film have singled Heath out in interviews -- before and after his death. And, of course, as the film's release date nears , naturally the hype and Oscar buzz of Heath's performance builds. The buzz would be there even if Heath was alive.

So Bale just isn't interesting in the movie? Not at all?
The Oscar buzz did not start with Michael Caine's comment. The buzz grew immediately after Ledger's death. I remember when I watched a special on Ledger's death and all of the panelists said that he deserved an Oscar for Brokeback Mountain and it was a shame he didn't have an Oscar already.

That's what started it. Not Michael Caine or even the performance of the Joker. It was a small outrage that he didn't have an Oscar prior to his untimely death.
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post #15 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegan Dracula View Post
I think that should go without saying. What the hell was all the elite ninja training for if we don't see shit? I think the action was unsatisfactory to begin with and the editing is there to hide this fact (in begins).
Leaping around buildings and shit and swooping in to scoop up bad guys into the shadows I thought was pretty impressive. I don't need to see punches being landed. I've seen that. And I'm sure if Nolan really wanted to present what you're asking for he could choreograph the fuck out of something or even hire a second unit specialist to do it for him (major directors--even Spielberg--do it all the time). Look at his past films: he shot Begins the same way he shot the action sequences in Insomnia.

I can't understand why people think Nolan can't direct a fight but he can direct a car chase or Batman being dragged behind a speeding train. "Oh, he hides it with editing". That's like saying the fight in Matrix Retarded with a billion Agent Smiths was shot the way it was because they don't know how to edit.
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post #16 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:30pm
My point stands people: If Heath Ledger was alive right now, the Oscar buzz would still be there; not just perpetuated by fanboys as Devin seems to think.
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post #17 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbenway View Post
Leaping around buildings and shit and swooping in to scoop up bad guys into the shadows I thought was pretty impressive. I don't need to see punches being landed. I've seen that. And I'm sure if Nolan really wanted to present what you're asking for he could choreograph the fuck out of something or even hire a second unit specialist to do it for him (major directors--even Spielberg--do it all the time). Look at his past films: he shot Begins the same way he shot the action sequences in Insomnia.
But thats always been an element of the character in every incarnation, the hand to hand combat. If Nolan want's to discard it, fine. Just don't half ass it because you can't figure out how to do it well. I would have no problem with a full on Judo batman, but Nolans already set him up as a ninja style combatant.
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post #18 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegan Dracula View Post
But thats always been an element of the character in every incarnation, the hand to hand combat. If Nolan want's to discard it, fine. Just don't half ass it because you can't figure out how to do it well. I would have no problem with a full on Judo batman, but Nolans already set him up as a ninja style combatant.
Christopher Nolan set up exactly what he wanted to present in terms of combat in one of the very first scenes of Batman Begins: the prison yard fight. What you see there is a tangible sense of absolute rage that defines the character's fighting style, and that's carried through the rest of the film. I think it's pretty clear Nolan has no interest in pretty fight moves (which I'm thankful for).
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post #19 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:38pm
God, this thread's already giving me a headache worse than any Nolan-directed fight sequence ever could manage.
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post #20 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbenway View Post
Christopher Nolan set up exactly what he wanted to present in terms of combat in one of the very first scenes of Batman Begins: the prison yard fight. What you see there is a tangible sense of absolute rage that defines the character's fighting style, and that's carried through the rest of the film. I think it's pretty clear Nolan has no interest in pretty fight moves (which I'm thankful for).
We'll agree to disagree. /end derailment.
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post #21 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegan Dracula View Post
We'll agree to disagree. /end derailment.
Derailment? Devin brought it up in his editorial piece...
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post #22 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozz View Post
Is this where I come to pre-emptively complain about The Dark Knight?

Good to see you're not letting the hype affect you and will be the first out of the gate to bitch about it. Looking forward to needless whining about it in every vaguely related article for years to come.
Jesus, even when the guy admits to liking something he thought he wouldn't he still gets shit on.

For fuck's sake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
God, this thread's already giving me a headache worse than any Nolan-directed fight sequence ever could manage.

You and me both
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post #23 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbenway View Post
Derailment? Devin brought it up in his editorial piece...
True, but the main argument was all the hyperbole. Maybe this discussion belongs in another thread.
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post #24 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Gittes View Post
My point stands people: If Heath Ledger was alive right now, the Oscar buzz would still be there; not just perpetuated by fanboys as Devin seems to think.
It wouldn't be any odder than Depp's nomination for PoTC was.
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post #25 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:45pm
He sure uses a fancy, obscure fighting style for someone that doesn't care about fancy fighting moves.

Batman Begins has bad fighting scenes. It has nothing to do with putting the viewer in Batman's shoes, or making things 'chaotic', it has to do with a general sense of geography. Bourne Ultimatum isn't chaotic? Of course it is.

Devin had a line in his DaVinci Code review about Ron Howard adopting shakey-cam like a nerdy younger sibling adopting an older brother's strut. That's how I think of Nolan and action scenes...

But I think Batman Begins is a pretty damn good superhero movie, and I can't wait for Dark Knight.
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post #26 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegan Dracula View Post
True, but the main argument was all the hyperbole. Maybe this discussion belongs in another thread.
Okay okay... Well... On the subject of hyperbole and The Dark Knight...

Here's a question: WHY the hyperbole? I mean, I know why I'M pre-sold on the movie (yeah, I'll admit it. But I'm not a critic and never will be, and I think I have pretty reasonable reasons for being pre-sold), but why is there this clamor to deify The Dark Knight?
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post #27 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:46pm
Nice write-up by Devin, but I've finally hit the wall on Batman threads. I don't even wanna read another one until after the 18th, when I lay eyes on it myself.
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post #28 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvt. Spunkmeyer View Post
Jesus, even when the guy admits to liking something he thought he wouldn't he still gets shit on.

For fuck's sake.
heh, but he's already bothered by people liking the film more than he does and for thinking a performance that he himself very much liked is getting oscar buzz.

Thats pretty wild.
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post #29 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCynic View Post
He sure uses a fancy, obscure fighting style for someone that doesn't care about fancy fighting moves.

Batman Begins has bad fighting scenes. It has nothing to do with putting the viewer in Batman's shoes, or making things 'chaotic', it has to do with a general sense of geography. Bourne Ultimatum isn't chaotic? Of course it is.

Devin had a line in his DaVinci Code review about Ron Howard adopting shakey-cam like a nerdy younger sibling adopting an older brother's strut. That's how I think of Nolan and action scenes...

But I think Batman Begins is a pretty damn good superhero movie, and I can't wait for Dark Knight.
I don't buy that part of it, only because his style (in terms of camera work, editing) for those scenes follows from the style in which he's shot everything from Following onward.
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post #30 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Gittes View Post
My point stands people: If Heath Ledger was alive right now, the Oscar buzz would still be there; not just perpetuated by fanboys as Devin seems to think.
You're probably right. I mean, there was Oscar buzz surrounding Jack Nicholson in 1989. Because it was such a popular performance. And then, when he wasn't nominated many thought he had been "robbed."

Truth is, as much as I have a very soft spot for it and Batman will always be dear to my heart for very personal reasons, Nicholson didn't deserve an Academy Award for his cartoon of a performance. It was funny. But he didn't create a real character, just an amped-up version of his usual "wearing sunglasses indoors and laughing with your mouth wide open and your tongue sticking out" shtick.

But "The Academy" tends to overlook cartoon characters or comedies anyway. The difference here is that it looks like Ledger pulled off an actual performance and may actually deserve the nomination. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets it.

I chimed in with my own opinion of the Dark Knight hyperbole (and hyperbole in general).

http://chud.com/articles/blogs/785/S...oney-Shot.html

I think Devin has a valid point about excessive hyperbole ultimately ruining what could be a good movie. It's the reason I don't really like Titanic. (I liked it just fine the first and only time I ever saw it)
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post #31 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erix View Post

I think Devin has a valid point about excessive hyperbole ultimately ruining what could be a good movie. It's the reason I don't really like Titanic. (I liked it just fine the first and only time I ever saw it)
Hype will always exist. In a post-Phantom Menace world, though, I think the idea of people being so let down is firmly on the shoulders of the responding individual.

As for the press... I think maybe there's a longing for those beautiful connective experiences certain films can offer. The world is so intensely fragmented now, I could kind of understand the need to manufacture that kind of a sensation.
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post #32 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbenway View Post
Define interesting.
The opposite of your posts.
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post #33 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbenway View Post
but why is there this clamor to deify The Dark Knight?
It's just one of those things....Just look at what happened with the lead up to The Phantom Menance.
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post #34 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbenway View Post
I don't buy that part of it, only because his style (in terms of camera work, editing) for those scenes follows from the style in which he's shot everything from Following onward.
How many Keysei fistfights were in Memento and Insomnia?
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post #35 of 305
6/27/08 at 7:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slater View Post
The opposite of your posts.
Oh, dis!
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post #36 of 305
6/27/08 at 8:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCynic View Post
How many Keysei fistfights were in Memento and Insomnia?
I'm talking about hand-held camera work, a fragmented mise-en-scene, fast cutting, lots of close-ups; always having more to do with mood than geography since his characters even are so infrequently aware of their geography, emotional, psychological, or otherwise. Christopher Nolan is what you could call a post-structural filmmaker.
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post #37 of 305
6/27/08 at 8:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ HiPPiE View Post
It's just one of those things....Just look at what happened with the lead up to The Phantom Menance.
There was a pretty clear reason for what happened with The Phantom Menace, though.
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post #38 of 305
6/27/08 at 8:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Gittes View Post
My point stands people: If Heath Ledger was alive right now, the Oscar buzz would still be there; not just perpetuated by fanboys as Devin seems to think.
Before Ledger's death, talk was centered on him delivering a great performance as the Joker, mainly because people had expressed concern as to whether or not he was the right choice. After he died, that talk suddenly switched to Ledger having delivered an Oscar worty performance. But whatever, your point (that can never be proven) about a performance (that you haven't seen) stands.
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post #39 of 305
6/27/08 at 8:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erix View Post
But "The Academy" tends to overlook cartoon characters or comedies anyway.
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post #40 of 305
6/27/08 at 8:15pm
This whole issue of the hyperbole of the 'first-saws' reminds me of how Brazil (Gilliam's cut) was accepted by one group of critics and showered with awards (I think it was the NY critics) while ignored by another (LA critics).

Guess which group got to see the movie first while the other had to deal with the hyperbole?

In the end, both sides just seem really childish. But that really can't be helped. People who see an eagerly awaited movie early will be more excited about it (even if it's just pretty good) and those who have to listen to that excitement while they have to wait will end up having their defenses up (even if the movie's really good).

Also, Batman Begins' hand-to-hand fights with the Batsuit on were incompetent. The rest of the action (cars, explosions, setpieces etc) were just ok to pretty good. None of them really did their jobs all that well. What was meant to be a race to save Rachel was nothing but Tumbler-porn. What was meant to be a race to save the city from freaky-gas was nothing but "Old man keeps saying it's GONNA BLOW!" porn.
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post #41 of 305
6/27/08 at 8:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

Also, Batman Begins' hand-to-hand fights with the Batsuit on were incompetent. The rest of the action (cars, explosions, setpieces etc) were just ok to pretty good. None of them really did their jobs all that well. What was meant to be a race to save Rachel was nothing but Tumbler-porn. What was meant to be a race to save the city from freaky-gas was nothing but "Old man keeps saying it's GONNA BLOW!" porn.
Problems with the race to save Rachel weren't Nolan's fault! Would YOU be particulary tense about racing home to save Katie Holmes? I might stop off at the store for a bag of milk on my way...
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post #42 of 305
6/27/08 at 8:20pm
Brasky: Talk shifted to Heath's performance in TDK as Oscar worthy when the first theatrical trailer came out which strongly suggested that Heath's performance might be something special. Actually seeing Heath as the Joker, if only for a few shots in the trailer, teased of a performance perhaps worthy of an Oscar nod, and continued the dialogue where "Joker/Ledger" and "Oscar" were synonymous with each other in most circles, albeit, mostly fanboy circles. But now, since the film's release is near, and real critics have seen the film( like Peter Travers), Oscar buzz surrounding Ledger has been amplified. His death, at least right now, has little to do with people calling for a Ledger nomination. If the performance is there, it's there.
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post #43 of 305
6/27/08 at 8:36pm
I think the best thing to do would be to write the review now, post it, and then include an addendum addressing the hyperbole later within the review. Maybe a 2nd viewing with the hyperbole in mind will allow for a more thorough criticism of what people have exaggerated, and so forth. Just a thought.
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post #44 of 305
6/27/08 at 8:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastronikolas View Post
Okay. But how often, exactly, has something like that happened? What are the odds of it happening again? Remember... I did say "tends to overlook" not "always overlooks." I mean, Kevin Kline got a much deserved Oscar nod for A Fish Called Wanda too.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be surprised in the least at this point if Heath Ledger gets nominated.

But that would probably be the last one in that type of role for a while.

Though, I'm as anxious to see that tide change completely as anybody.

mcnooj82: It was the other way around. The LA critics saw Brazil first and it was the NY critics who wondered what all the fuss was about.

But Brazil is definitely a masterpiece. See? Hyperbole rubbed that one the wrong way too. Devin does have a point.
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post #45 of 305
6/27/08 at 9:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erix View Post

But Brazil is definitely a masterpiece. See? Hyperbole rubbed that one the wrong way too. Devin does have a point.
Oh, I wasn't arguing any point. Just bringing it up as a situation showcasing a similar mindset. If anything, I thought I was going along with Devin's point.
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post #46 of 305
6/27/08 at 9:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erix View Post
Okay. But how often, exactly, has something like that happened? What are the odds of it happening again?
Al Pacino as Big Boy Caprice in Dick Tracy deserves a mention.

Beyond a sense of novelty as a fanboy, I don't really care if Ledger gets a nomination, but I can't really call any of this hyperbole until I see it for myself.

A solid article Faraci, and again, it is appreciated. Although I am rather intrigued by your claim that Ledger does something with the role that could alter the comics interpretation - which itself has been shaped and reshaped over the years. I'm curious to know exactly how different it is from something like DKR, Arkham Asylum or Killing Joke, that inspires this opinion.
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post #47 of 305
6/27/08 at 9:14pm
That was good writing as usual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbenway View Post
because the character is skilled combatant. I've not heard anyone make this argument, however.
Yes it was done years ago.
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post #48 of 305
6/27/08 at 9:31pm
At this point, I'd like to throw my two cents in and get on drbenway's side.

I never agreed with anyone who complained about the action in Batman Begins. I liked the way Nolan staged it. It had a kinetic feel to it. This feel carries over all the moments of violence in the film, including the killing of Thomas and Martha Wayne.

I think everything was staged exactly as he intended it. Maybe he could shoot more traditional (read: "coherent") action if he wanted to. But I don't think that was ever his intention.

I especially like the raid on the warehouse. It's staged like a horror film. Batman is supposed to be, above all things, frightening. No Batman film had really managed to pull that off. The first Burton tried, but it didn't work entirely (though the rooftop attack on the muggers gets an A for effort).
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post #49 of 305
6/27/08 at 9:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

Also, Batman Begins' hand-to-hand fights with the Batsuit on were incompetent. The rest of the action (cars, explosions, setpieces etc) were just ok to pretty good. None of them really did their jobs all that well. What was meant to be a race to save Rachel was nothing but Tumbler-porn. What was meant to be a race to save the city from freaky-gas was nothing but "Old man keeps saying it's GONNA BLOW!" porn.
Complete with Batman's O-face screaming, "RACHEL!!!"

And the more articles Devin writes like this one, the more I begin to like his writing style.
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post #50 of 305
6/27/08 at 9:53pm
His intention is not in question. The execution of it is.

Of all the things that have been talked about regarding BB, I didn't even think this was a point of contention on CHUD, that the fighting scenes are actually something more than mediocre...
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