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The Military is the US's Second Largest Religion - Page 2

post #51 of 74
7/1/08 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muharulz View Post
Well, as I mentioned above, I don't think military service equates to heroism. But there are plenty of soldiers (like the 150-170,000 in Iraq and Afghanistan) who could be described as heroes because they do risk their lives for their country.
Just so we're clear - every soldier currently serving in Iraq and Afghanistan is a hero, yes?
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post #52 of 74
7/1/08 at 4:27pm
There's a medal waiting for every buck private as they step off the plane in a war zone, as well as a big banner: "Congratulations! You're Now A Hero!"

Editing to add there's plenty of military in my family, though none serving now. I'm not belittling anyone who serves. Merely deflating to proper, safe PSI levels.
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post #53 of 74
7/1/08 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muharulz View Post
Knowing that there are Americans who do the opposite, at least to me, shows that there is an underlying current of patriotism, love of country, self-sacrifice, or public service in their reasoning for joining the military. To me, that's admirable.
Yeah, but is it heroic? Those reasons listed are generally why you would join the military. You join the military because of love of country, patriotism, etc. Not because it's the fast-track to heroism. Again, by that rubric, Iraqi insurgents are, by definition, heroes. In my estimation, these people are Fighting Men and Women. The heroic angle is there to shield criticism from failed policy.
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post #54 of 74
7/1/08 at 4:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
Just so we're clear - every soldier currently serving in Iraq and Afghanistan is a hero, yes?
I don't know, like I said before the definition of heroism is in the eye of the beholder. I personally think there is something heroic in fighting for your country, but to each his own.

That said, all these Democrats who are vehemently against the war, would certainly call and have called the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan heroes.
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post #55 of 74
7/1/08 at 4:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Yeah, but is it heroic? Those reasons listed are generally why you would join the military. You join the military because of love of country, patriotism, etc. Not because it's the fast-track to heroism. Again, by that rubric, Iraqi insurgents are, by definition, heroes. In my estimation, these people are Fighting Men and Women. The heroic angle is there to shield criticism from failed policy.
Well, that's why I said that heroism is in the eye of the beholder. If I love my country and I don't like yours or your regime or your terrorist organization, of course I'm going to call my soldiers heroic and your soldiers villainous. That's the way it works.

I'm sure the German people during WWII thought that the Wehrmacht and the SS were heroes.
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post #56 of 74
7/1/08 at 4:37pm
The reason the Germans thought that was because they had become a militarist nation. Which is kind of what we are debating here.
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post #57 of 74
7/1/08 at 5:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muharulz View Post
I'm sure the German people during WWII thought that the Wehrmacht and the SS were heroes.
No. No, they did not. And the ones who vocalized it were promptly shot.
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post #58 of 74
7/1/08 at 5:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trav McGee View Post
There's a medal waiting for every buck private as they step off the plane in a war zone, as well as a big banner: "Congratulations! You're Now A Hero!"

Editing to add there's plenty of military in my family, though none serving now. I'm not belittling anyone who serves. Merely deflating to proper, safe PSI levels.
Haha, actually there probably is a medal waiting for everyone who goes to Iraq!!!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Campaign_Medal

Quote:
The Iraq Campaign Medal is a military decoration of the United States armed forces which was created by Executive Order 13363 of President George W. Bush on May 28, 2004. The Iraq Campaign Medal was designed by the U.S. Army Institute of Heraldry.

The Iraq Campaign Medal became available for general distribution in June of 2005. The decoration is awarded to any member of the U.S. military who has performed duty within the borders of Iraq (or its territorial waters) for a period of thirty consecutive days or sixty non-consecutive days. The medal is retroactive to March 19, 2003 and is active until a date to be determined. Personnel who have been engaged in combat with an enemy force, or personnel who have been wounded in combat or wounded as a result of a terrorist attack within Iraq, may receive the Iraq Campaign Medal regardless of the number of days spent within the country. The medal is also awarded posthumously to any service member who dies in the line of duty within Iraq, including from non-combat injuries such as accidents and mishaps.
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post #59 of 74
7/1/08 at 5:44pm
"The medal is also awarded posthumously to any service member who dies in the line of duty within Iraq, including from non-combat injuries such as accidents and mishaps."

Heroic!
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post #60 of 74
7/1/08 at 5:45pm
Isn't that standard procedure for all servicemen, though? Don't they all get a 'hey, thanks for participating' badge just for, you know, being there?
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post #61 of 74
7/1/08 at 5:47pm
The sad part is, I found that just a few minutes ago while I was looking up my Dad's medals(I called him at lunch time to ask if he had any). I honestly had no idea they're was such a thing as an Iraqi campaign medal but it was perfect timing.
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post #62 of 74
7/1/08 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankCobretti View Post
No. No, they did not. And the ones who vocalized it were promptly shot.
That wasn't my point.

The point was that a hero is not necessarily a hero, but a villain to certain people.
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post #63 of 74
7/1/08 at 5:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Happenin View Post
Isn't that standard procedure for all servicemen, though? Don't they all get a 'hey, thanks for participating' badge just for, you know, being there?
As far as I know, yes. I know my grandfather has a medal for the ETO.
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post #64 of 74
7/1/08 at 6:08pm
I am very supportive of the military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I don't think that just because someone served there that they should be called a hero. I do admire them for it though.

I believe that the term, "Hero", should be left for "actions performed above and beyond the call of duty". A Soldier exposing himself to extra risk to save the lives of fellow soldiers/citizens or accomplish a mission. A Fireman going into a room that is about to collapse to save a child inside. Stuff like that.

Personally, I think sports stars being called Heroes is even more of a dilution of the term than soldiers serving in a war zone.

But I am not going to complain too much if people use "Hero" simply as a term for anyone they look up to or admire.
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post #65 of 74
7/1/08 at 6:38pm
We may as well be debating the meaning of "good" and "bad." It's subjective. How many people called George Carlin a "hero" in the Dead Celebrity Thread? One of the most popular games out there is Guitar Hero. It's a word that's just come to mean "this is someone I admire."

Meanwhile, what we are kind of debating is what constitutes a heroic act. Is serving in the military a heroic act in and of itself, or does it require something more than enlisting?

ETA: I probably should have read Noah's post before making my own. That's kind of my point.
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post #66 of 74
7/1/08 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvc View Post
Meanwhile, what we are kind of debating is what constitutes a heroic act. Is serving in the military a heroic act in and of itself, or does it require something more than enlisting?
The question originally posed wasn't 'what is heroism' but rather why do we, as a society, feel the need idealize all our soldiers as heroes? To make us feel better about going along with a really bad idea in the first place?
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post #67 of 74
7/1/08 at 8:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post
I think lately, it's turned into a sort of retroactive propaganda for Iraq. We make everyone who served in a war a hero, it's harder to see the multitude of soldiers in Iraq as kids who just want to go home, which is, from all the conversations have had as of late, what it really has become. It also makes anyone who questions the nobility of their task at hand blasphemous and ugly. It's backdoor demonization of those who don't support the war.

If the military is the US's second largest religion, patriotism is its "Thou shalt not lie with a man as you would a woman."
I agree with this, though I also think there are two other things at work here:

1) 911 reaction: "they can get the bad guys = they are great!"

2) Historical cycles; we had not been in a large scale conflict since 1992 (which was a cake walk). The only major conflict before that was Vietnam which ended in 1975. Every time a nation enjoys a quiet period people forget what war is really like and begin to romanticize it.
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post #68 of 74
7/1/08 at 8:34pm
People too often equate heroic acts with being a "hero." Even worse is when they assume that a given profession or category of folk are, simply by virtue of their profession, acting heroically on a constant basis.

People do heroic things every day. Heroes? There aren't nearly as many of them.
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post #69 of 74
7/1/08 at 11:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord View Post
People do heroic things every day. Heroes? There aren't nearly as many of them.
What are you talking about! I've seen you in the Heroes thread. There's a gaggle of them, one's a cute little cheerleader!!!!

http://www.heroestheseries.com/still...es_desktop.jpg
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post #70 of 74
7/1/08 at 11:21pm
I'll just base this on my own families service record from WWII to today. Of them all only two of them are really heroes.

One is my grandfather landed on the beach in Normandy, was promotied from Seg. to Captain by the end of the Day. Saved a huge pile of his men and was awarded both the Military Medal and the Military Cross during the War. In my mind that makes a hero.

My Great-Grandfather servered in WWI but was a normal solider and did nothing special. However in WWII he help with the evcuation of the British Army from Dunkirk with his pleasure boat...which is pretty damn heroic.

My Great-Uncle also served in the military, rose to command a regiment but never saw active service. Not really all that heroic.

Then there is my Uncle now. The only active member of the military in my family. He commands a naval ship. He has never seen action of any kind to the best of knowledge. Not heroic.

Just because you are in the miliary...doesn't mean you are doing heroic things.
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post #71 of 74
7/1/08 at 11:51pm
The only heroes are Darwin Award winners. And they were just following their instincts.
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post #72 of 74
7/2/08 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minsky View Post

A little tribute to my favorite flag-wavin' forum hero.
If this is sarcasm, what'd I do? If it's not, what'd I do?
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post #73 of 74
7/2/08 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post
If the military is the US's second largest religion, patriotism is its "Thou shalt not lie with a man as you would a woman."
don't you mean " men are for killing, women are for pleasure." it sound more military anyways.
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post #74 of 74
7/2/08 at 2:59pm
I have a cousin he is on his 3rd or 4th tour with recon Marines, and he Volunteers for every hairy mission he can. Many might think he is heroic, but he is there for one simple reason. So he can give in to his Blood lust legally. The kid just love murder, mayhem, and the adrenalin rush.


He is the evil Opie, he look just like Richie Cunningham, but he would kick Fonzie's ass.
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