Christohper Hitchens: Holy shit! Waterboarding IS torture!

In other news, water is still wet.

Not a fan of Hitchens, but kudos to him for doing this. Not sure it'll change lots of minds, but there's always hope.

Unfortunately, Hitchens was under the impression that the procedure would be performed with scotch.

If it was done that way, the interrogation technique would've been deemed "delicious".

...Although he probably would have complained that the water sommelier interrupted the procedure too many times.

I give him credit for doing this, and for being honest and forthright about his reactions. I disagree entirely with him regarding the war, and have always felt that waterboarding constituted torture, but never expected him to man up like this and face the facts.

So, kudos to him for doing so.

Kudos, also, for his recent Slate article encouraging book donations to Iraq libraries. He's still completely wrong about the war, but the man's complicated, not one-sided, and I respect that more than unwavering dogmatism.

Here's to multi-sided people everywhere. I would *never* have the stones to get voluntarily waterboarded, even in such controlled conditions. My hat's off to him.

How the hell can anyone argue that simulated drowning is not torture? Does torture have to involve iron maidens and rakes with organ music playing in the background?

but I thought Scotch make everything better?

Read the memos on this stuff - plenty of people have argued/are arguing that it doesn't qualify as torture.

That's where we're at as a country - a 'sliding scale' of inhumane behavior based off the fallacious argument of the 'ticking time-bomb'. Every article like this is another chink in the armor of ignorance.

I was watching a documentary about this whole deal and an army interrogator made a comment I found very logical. He said that when they went into Iraq they followed the Geneva convention to the letter. No inhumane treatment at all. As time went by and things went from bad to worse the pressure for quick results, any result would become too much. So one interrogator would slap a prisoner, for example. Things may not have moved any further down the line. The problem is that were talking about the army and that means that new personnel is always brought in. So when the new guys came in the first step for them wasn't the Geneva Convention. It was hitting the prisoners. So that way you'd end up with waterboarding as a standard practice and 'outsourcing' interrogations to private contractors and 'less accountable third parties'.

That's a very logical progression, I agree. Thanks for sharing that info - what was the name of the documentary?

The making of "24".

I don´t want to talk for Stelios. But I reckon he is referring to "Taxi to the dark side". If not, it is still highly recommended.

Thanks, Jan. Hope the exam went well for you. I haven't seen "Taxi..." yet, but I hear that it's compelling and harrowing. I'll be sure to frontload my queue with it.

Thanks (Results still pending, but one step a time). Not to derail this thread but just a quick heads-up for the few souls around here that speak German or French. ARTE.tv (great channel) posted "Taxi..." online in full length:
Francais.
Deutsch.

Sweet! Thanks!

It was something on History Channel I think. I didn't watch from the beginning, but it was about more than just the Iraq deal. It also had an Israeli interrogator interviewed that pretty much said that torture is considered as providing really bad intel and is used only by amateurs. He also explained some really smart methods, now declassified, they would use on high value suspects.

This is somewhat related to this issue (And I am amazed that it hasn´t been picked up by the US media, well not really, or been posted already):

First video of a Gitmo interrogation of a 16y old Canadian.

God almighty.

I support Amnesty International to prevent exactly this sort of thing from occuring/recurring.

It's a horrible feeling to know that my country is on Amnesty's list.

Even more saddening is the fact that this is a mere "teaser" out of a 7 hour video.

And I just googled it and while it is the headline on every major news outlet in Germany I can´t find any US news outlet as an online source.

Seems like you lost the real war already.

Thanks, allies!

The war wouldnt work if a large percentage of the american people had any idea what it is about, and how its waged.
Thats true for about every war in a foreign country anyway. Civilians used to a protected life are, admittedly, not in the best position to judge the stuff they get to see about a war, but this is so far beyond anything even remotely justifyable, its just sad.

You know, the thing about torture and "advanced interrogation" is, it doesnt work. The information you get is so untrustworthy, unless you can verify it through different sources (in which case torture was kind of pointless, anyway) it isnt really enough to rely, and risk a lot of soldiers or material on by acting on it.
Unfortunately, while that is well-known to people in higher positions, the grunt on the ground probably never bothered doing research on it, or is just taking out their lust for revenge in some cases.
Its pathetic of a first world country to do crap like this.

I don´t know where else to post it but this is just infuriating. Or just another reason for apathy.

Pentagon says Gitmo detainees subject to detention even if acquitted.

So no matter what our so called justice-system says, we say fuck them. The courts say they are innocent? Well, doesn´t matter, they are still "enemy combatants". Therefore we can do whatever we want. Yeah!

I weep for your country that once was a beacon of hope and freedom. Thanks for liberating us and establishing a stable democracy here. And that it why stories like this are just plain saddening. It is a little bit like watching a good old friend loosing it and getting insane.

In defense of my country, it's a little more like watching a drunk captain piloting the Exxon Valdez. You shouldn't blame the ship for the idiot captain and his indefensible crew.

Vast numbers of people are working overtime here to set right what the current administration has set so very wrong, and we will continue to work until this kind of moral and legal outrage is eradicated.

Suggesting that a country is incapable of reform ('I weep for your country that once was a beacon of hope and freedom') because it's made undeniably terrible choices seems a little odd especially, if memory serves, coming from Germany.

And it should be noted that simply because the pentagon says this does not mean that our coordinate branches will roll over and approve such theories of extrajudicial power. There is mounting resistance to the entire Gitmo process, and progress has been made. But as someone who has studied the law surely knows, in order for decisions in a democracy to have validity and lasting power, they must be subjected to the legal process.

That process is a slow one, both regrettably and necessarily. In the meantime, work by US-based legal groups/organizations to provide the detainees at Gitmo with the same rights, due process, and judicial resources afforded to other defendants continues unabated and with the same commitment to hope and freedom that you fear has left our shores.

I share your frustration, but I refuse to surrender my belief in a just system made just by the concerted actions of the people within it, and I am not alone.

Oh, I absolutely did not want to blame the ship as you have put it. I apologize for for apparently suggesting otherwise.

My frustration was indeed directed at the pentagon. And I am well aware that there are myriads of good people trying to steer the ship in the right direction again. As is evidential on a daily basis by the vast majority of the good people in the political discussion forum over here.

I did not want to imply that you are incapable of reform. Rather the opposite. And precisely because the US of A have done so much for our country in the past it is just saddening. That is what my "friend" metaphor was aiming at. Because you have and can do better than this.

That is pretty much the source of my frustration. Having a legal background and following the Gitmo-situation rather closely it is dispicable to see the Pentagon saying: "Oh so the legal system set us boundaries? We don´t care.". So the legal system worked on a basic checks and balances level and corrected an unacceptable situation and along comes the Pentagon and bluntly states that it simply doesn´t care. That is not how it should be and is going against all my basic believes and principles.
But at the same time I am very well aware that there are other forces at work that put all possible effort to correct these situation. And I salute thee.

So I think we are on the same page here but are rather facing a miscommunication.

Seeing how a McCain win looks more and more likely each day, I don't see us getting back on track anytime soon.

Here's an honest question for you, Chris, and it's meant without any implications/derision/hostility whatsoever: As an American, what have you done to right the ship?

It's my personal belief that if we are to make a difference and to return to the ideals which all of us in this thread clearly value ad share, then we must affirmatively act to make that possible.

I believe that good men who do nothing will always outweigh the malintentioned men that do something when it comes to responsibility.

The ACLU and Amnesty International are two organizations currently working to ensure that this Gitmo insanity ends. I highly suggest donating your time and money to both institutions if news like this affects you the same way it does me.

What bizarro universe are you pulling this assertion from?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080806/...l_race_ap_poll

Seems we're on the exact same page. My apologies if I came off as aggressive - it bothers me when people outside or inside of the US comment on our current situation as if no hope exists, or should be wished for; as if the country that I love and cherish has somehow gone irredeemably over to the dark side when it is so clear that so many here are raging against these sorts of pentagon-issued opinions.

I realize now that's not what you were saying. Thanks for the thoughtful comments and informative articles as always Jan.