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Tombstone (1993)

post #1 of 60
7/12/08 at 6:46am
Thread Starter 
To connect one Bill Paxton movie to another, upon finishing this film I was left with only two words to describe it: "Absolutely badass!"

I was amazed at how many actors I recognized in this movie. By my count: Kurt Russell, Val Kilmer, Bill Paxton, Sam Elliot, Michael Biehn, Charlton Heston, Billy Bob Thorton, John Corbett, Billy Zane, Thomas Haden Church, Jason Priestley (who looks a lot like Josh from The Blair Witch Project in this movie), Powers Boothe, Michael Rooker, Terry O'Quinn and the voice of Robert Mitchum (That was the one I had to look up). It's a hell of an ensemble to say the least. The highlight to me is Kilmer, who I don't think I've ever loved this much. I was a little thrown by the sexual ambiguity I sensed at first but I was a fan by the end. The scenes he shared with Michael Biehn were absolutely fantastic.

I saw somewhere that George Cosmatos (who really doesn't have much luck outside of getting ghost directing gigs does he?) said all the lightning was real. That blew my mind, because I think my favorite scene in the movie in terms of visuals is the build-up to the ambush of the Earps, and the montage of the town being lit up by the storm. I can't believe they got lucky enough to capture those images as well as they did.

After reading about Costner trying to black list Tombstone while he was making Wyatt Earp I'm very interested to see that film. The reviews I read indicate that it's not all that good. Karma perhaps?
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post #2 of 60
7/12/08 at 10:16am
This is a great movie. I'm not really into westerns, but I love this flick. Definetly my favorite Kilmer performance.

I didn't care for Wyatt Earp at all, but then it has been years since I've seen it. Maybe I should revisit it.
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post #3 of 60
7/12/08 at 10:51am
When I saw it, I noticed that when Russell says the whole "You tell em I'M COMIN, you hear?? And hell's comin' with me!", his voice cracks like a pimply teenager.
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post #4 of 60
7/12/08 at 3:07pm
One of my favorite movies of all time. It's not one of the best westerns maybe, but I love the shit out of Tombstone. I may have seen it more than any other movie, probably exponentially. It's also amongst my friends and family the single most quotable films out there. Until the Alamo does a quote-a-long for Tombstone I will settle for my friends getting together, drinking, eating, and watching Tombstone.

And I don't care what anyone says, Val deserved a fucking Oscar.
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post #5 of 60
7/12/08 at 5:03pm
The perfect Western for people who don't like Westerns.

ETA- Which, before someone gets oversensitive, is not the same thing as saying if you do like Westerns you can't like Tombstone.
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post #6 of 60
7/12/08 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyG View Post
And I don't care what anyone says, Val deserved a fucking Oscar.
Yup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey View Post
The perfect Western for people who don't like Westerns.
And yup.
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post #7 of 60
7/12/08 at 5:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyG View Post
And I don't care what anyone says, Val deserved a fucking Oscar.
Or at the very least a nomination or something, I was stunned to discover all he got was two MTV Movie Award noms.
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post #8 of 60
7/12/08 at 5:58pm
To me, it's the Kurt Russell show. Really kind of underrated here. He becomes the walking embodiment of mythologized Wyatt Earp. (Blasphemous as it may be, even worthy to be mentioned alongside Henry Fonda's classic interpretation)

As for cinematic Docs, I'll take Dennis Quaid. His performance is a stunning bit of method acting.
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post #9 of 60
7/13/08 at 1:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Elvis View Post
To me, it's the Kurt Russell show. Really kind of underrated here. He becomes the walking embodiment of mythologized Wyatt Earp. (Blasphemous as it may be, even worthy to be mentioned alongside Henry Fonda's classic interpretation)

As for cinematic Docs, I'll take Dennis Quaid. His performance is a stunning bit of method acting.
Blasphemy indeed. Kilmer's performance anchors that film. Russell is overshadowed by pretty much everybody from Powers Boothe to Sam Elliot. That movie is a rote, by the numbers Western with a melodramatic Russell in the lead without the marvelous supporting cast.
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post #10 of 60
7/13/08 at 1:20am
Russell's old-school, bigger than life Earp is a big part of the charm of the movie, but yeah he plays amazingly off the guys mentioned, but especially Stephen Lang (where the fuck is he? that guy was good), and that great scene with Billy Bob. It's a total guilty pleasure, but I love this damn movie.

Priestly and Paxton are the two weak links, if anyone.
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post #11 of 60
7/13/08 at 1:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Russell's old-school, bigger than life Earp is a big part of the charm of the movie, but yeah he plays amazingly off the guys mentioned, but especially Stephen Lang (where the fuck is he? that guy was good), and that great scene with Billy Bob. It's a total guilty pleasure, but I love this damn movie.

Priestly and Paxton are the two weak links, if anyone.
I'm harsh on Russell I admit but the secondary performances (even Billy Zane for the love of Christ) give the movie more than Russell gives it as the lead. I'm starting to evaluate Tombstone the way I evaluate the Dirty Dozen; it's the cast and the supporting pieces that make its (relative) greatness.
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post #12 of 60
7/13/08 at 1:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post
(even Billy Zane for the love of Christ) give the movie more than Russell gives it as the lead.
You can't really think that.
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post #13 of 60
7/13/08 at 1:47am
Let me put it this way:

I can't pull Cassavettes out of The Dirty Dozen nor Kilmer out of Tombstone without hurting the film. I think I could replace Marvin or Russell and not miss anything.

I realize I'm being harsh on Russell but I don't see his performance the key as to what makes the film work.
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post #14 of 60
7/13/08 at 4:03am
With Bancroft on this one. I like Russell elsewhere, but here he (and Paxton, who I also love) stand out as performing in a movie where the likes of Kilmer, Beihn, and Boothe just seem to live.
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post #15 of 60
7/13/08 at 4:30am
I used to count this movie as one of my Top Five all time, and I've seen it dozens of times, but I've become so enchanted with the richness of Deadwood that I pretty much stopped watching all other westerns. But it's still a great damn movie, and since I see it less nowadays, I appreciate it more.

Russell is great in this, in part because he is so square and old fashioned. Sure, Kilmer and the supporting cast gets all the memorable bits, but Russell holds the center. He's doing something very difficult in this, which is channeling the uncomplicated moral righteousness fused with masculine strength that was the entire basis for mythic qualities attributed to the American West. Or basically, he's playing the John Wayne role, and generally only John Wayne could pull that off. I'd go so far as to say this is my favorite Russell performance. And it's a hell of a moustache. If there's a weak link in the cast, it obviously Dana Delaney.

If you like this and haven't seen Open Range, go for it. It's not quite as fun, but it's got that certain charm. And Duvall does a pretty credible (old) John Wayne as well.
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post #16 of 60
7/13/08 at 5:19am
"I'm your huckleberry..."

Quote it, love it, live it.
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post #17 of 60
7/13/08 at 5:20am
Thread Starter 
"Perhaps poker is just not your game sir. I know, let's have a spelling contest!"
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post #18 of 60
7/13/08 at 5:25am
"Poor soul, you were just too high strung."
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post #19 of 60
7/13/08 at 5:30am
Thread Starter 
"You're so drunk you can't hit nothin. I bet you're seeing double!"

"I have two guns, so one for each of you then."
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post #20 of 60
7/13/08 at 11:42am
"You called down the thunder...well now you've got it!!!"
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post #21 of 60
7/13/08 at 12:08pm
Don't let me stop you randomly typing quotes at each other, but we talked about this article once upon a time.
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post #22 of 60
7/13/08 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Don't let me stop you randomly typing quotes at each other, but we talked about this article once upon a time.
Do you think it's true, Phil?

Also Bancroft: DIRTY DOZEN without Lee Marvin? No thank you. (Don't see it)
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post #23 of 60
7/13/08 at 2:32pm
I choose to believe that Russell's not big enough of a prick to make it up, but the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
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post #24 of 60
7/13/08 at 3:30pm
That was sort of what Cosmatos was known for. He was hired because the original director was fired shortly into production. Stallone supposedly recommended Cosmatos to Russell because of his ability to "defer to the star" while making RAMBO 2 and COBRA. But even as a journeyman, the guy managed to knock out some decent genre fare.

As for this film, love it. Mainly because the cast is a joy to watch. It gets dumped on a bit because pretty much all modern westerns need to have scenes where gunslingers talk about how they're impotent or include moments where cowboys slowly blow the pedals off of dandelions in order to be taken seriously. TOMBSTONE doesn't make time for that jive. It's THE UNTOUCHABLES of the old west.
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post #25 of 60
7/13/08 at 3:49pm
I still love the shit out of Tombstone, and I'm a huge fan of the westerns. Hick, East Texas, etc. This movie still grabs me by the short-and-curlies and keeps me rapt, despite the fact that it's my own definition of a popcorn western.
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post #26 of 60
7/13/08 at 4:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Elvis View Post

Also Bancroft: DIRTY DOZEN without Lee Marvin? No thank you. (Don't see it)

I love Lee Marvin but the Dirty Dozen (and Tombstone) work because of the pieces surrounding the leads. I'm not knocking either' performance per se but I could see a Robert Mitchum or a Steve McQueen taking Marvin's role as Reisman and the film not missing a beat.

But I would also add that I think The Dirty Dozen is cinematic perfection. Just a brilliant ensemble piece that hits every mark and probably one of the most perfectly cast films in the history of cinema.
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post #27 of 60
7/13/08 at 4:40pm
Anyone willing to take a stand and say they prefer Kasdan's WYATT EARP? I won't, but have the extended cut on VHS (and Laser). It really works, if not quite reaching the heights of glorious epic.
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post #28 of 60
7/13/08 at 4:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post
I love Lee Marvin but the Dirty Dozen (and Tombstone) work because of the pieces surrounding the leads. I'm not knocking either' performance per se but I could see a Robert Mitchum or a Steve McQueen taking Marvin's role as Reisman and the film not missing a beat.

But I would also add that I think The Dirty Dozen is cinematic perfection. Just a brilliant ensemble piece that hits every mark and probably one of the most perfectly cast films in the history of cinema.
I think it was written for John Wayne, but can't see past Marvin's iconic, star-making performance.
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post #29 of 60
7/13/08 at 4:54pm
Wayne would have screwed the dynamic all up. Marvin's far better suited.


As to Marvin: I list Emperor of the North(Pole) as one of my favorite hundred films of all time. Hell, Lee Marvin makes several appearances on that personal list. I am not Anti-Lee Marvin.
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post #30 of 60
7/14/08 at 12:56pm
I don't think Russell is bad, it's just that everyone else is so damn good. Powers Boothe and Biehn may be two of my favorite cinematic villains ever.

Also, I cannot get enough of the "attempting to walk on water" scene. When Holliday replies "I don't" to (I believe) Johnson about having lots of friends, what man here doesn't get a twinge in his heart?
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post #31 of 60
7/14/08 at 1:55pm
Great lines, fun performances and a fun movie all-in-all, but it's not really a GREAT movie, is it?

The story is a mess. What is the point of Jason Priestly's character? Who is he? Where does he go? Why doesn't Dana Delaney know whether she's playing a femme fatale or the spunky galpal or the pining girlfriend? WHAT IS BILLY ZANE DOING IN THIS MOVIE? WHY IS THOMAS HADEN CHURCH ORANGE?

The Cowboys have no motivation other than to be craven cannon fodder and psychopathic killers. The few Cowboys that sign on with Wyatt after the attack on the womenfolk...how did these suddenly decent and upright gunslingers once follow sheriff-shooting Curly Bill and Johnny "Manson Family" Ringo?

I own and love Tombstone, but without strong performances by Kilmer, Russell and Sam Elliott's mustache this would be a terrible movie. TERRIBLE.
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post #32 of 60
7/14/08 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
Great lines, fun performances and a fun movie all-in-all, but it's not really a GREAT movie, is it?

The story is a mess. What is the point of Jason Priestly's character? Who is he? Where does he go? Why doesn't Dana Delaney know whether she's playing a femme fatale or the spunky galpal or the pining girlfriend? WHAT IS BILLY ZANE DOING IN THIS MOVIE? WHY IS THOMAS HADEN CHURCH ORANGE?

The Cowboys have no motivation other than to be craven cannon fodder and psychopathic killers. The few Cowboys that sign on with Wyatt after the attack on the womenfolk...how did these suddenly decent and upright gunslingers once follow sheriff-shooting Curly Bill and Johnny "Manson Family" Ringo?

I own and love Tombstone, but without strong performances by Kilmer, Russell and Sam Elliott's mustache this would be a terrible movie. TERRIBLE.
Great points.

The whole Jason Priestley sub-plot is a debacle. (Doesn't help that we're talkin' about Jason Priestley here. Such a glaring miscast) At least Billy Zane is having fun & hamming it up.

Agree Dana Delany is awful. Funny that the female performances in Wyatt Earp are also a weak link.

As for plot holes, luckily after an hour in, the whole thing is so damn rip-roaring you don't notice or it doesn't matter
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post #33 of 60
7/14/08 at 3:03pm
Actually, it is a great movie. It not meant to be representative of reality at all. That's what shitty Wyatt Earp is for. It's mythic Men's-Adventure storytelling. Complaining that the Cowboys are just craven evil psychopaths is like complaining that the Empire in Star Wars are all just one dimensional pompous assholes. Like I was saying earlier, I liked Tombstone a bit more when I was younger, but it's still totally succesful at being an old-fashioned genre western. As for Priestley, he has what, six lines and four minutes or screen time? And add a little texture. As for Zane, well, if you don't like gay Shakespeare cowboy Zane, fuck you!

It's not There Will Be Blood. But There Will Be Blood has little chance of being watched a gazillion times by me, as Tombstone has been. Tombstone can be great without being art.
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post #34 of 60
7/14/08 at 3:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
As for Zane, well, if you don't like gay Shakespeare cowboy Zane, fuck you!
Whoa. Whoa. WHOA! I asked what he was doing in the movie, I said nothing whatsoever to impugn the Zane. I'm not crazy! Seriously, I do enjoy Tombstone for what it is and it beats the pants off of the asstastic Young Guns or the plodding 3:10 to Yuma remake, but it is not in the same league as the great Westerns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
It's not There Will Be Blood. But There Will Be Blood has little chance of being watched a gazillion times by me...
I beg you to rethink that.
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post #35 of 60
7/14/08 at 4:02pm
The Cowboys needed one thing to motivate them, blood to keep their sashes the proper red.
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post #36 of 60
7/14/08 at 4:21pm
Tombstone (1993) like buckaroo Banzai is not a great film but is Infinitely watchable. over the years I have probable seen both films over a 100 times each
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post #37 of 60
7/14/08 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
I asked what man-God almighty, Billy Zane was doing in the movie,
He was kicking ass of course. And likely licking ass. Priestley ass.

I know that Tombstone is not a perfect film. The Dana Delaney character alone makes that impossible. But it is seriously one of the most entertaining films I've seen. It's my Dad's favorite movie ever, and that man has about forty or so John Wayne DVDs and videos (which he refuses to part with). It makes him happy every time he watches it. Me too, for that matter. There's no need to qualify appreciation for movies that are just made to entertain. In it's own way, that's just as impressive as There Will Be Blood.
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post #38 of 60
7/14/08 at 10:55pm
I will chime in here and say it is not a great film. I own it on DVD and pop in every so often, but it has way too many faults to be considered great. Lots of stuff to love and enjoy though.
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post #39 of 60
7/14/08 at 11:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey View Post
The perfect Western for people who don't like Westerns.
That's because it's an action film.
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post #40 of 60
7/15/08 at 12:56am
Molt got it right with his Untouchables comparison.

And there are answers to a lot of your questions about the cowboys and their shifting loyalties, but for whatever reason the film doesn't get into them. As popcornball as this fucker is, it's one of the most accurate film versions of the OK Corral story.
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post #41 of 60
7/15/08 at 1:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabass Inna Bun View Post
That's because it's an action film.
Aren't most Westerns?
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post #42 of 60
7/15/08 at 1:31am
Eastwood liked to say that jazz and the Western are the only two art forms invented by the USA. We've had the "what is and isn't a western" argument here a few times, but there's no doubt that westerns almost always overlap into another genre, whether it's drama, action, thriller, or comedy, or even sci fi and horror on occasion.
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post #43 of 60
7/15/08 at 10:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graynadian View Post
Aren't most Westerns?
Most aren't shot or paced like Tombstone, though. It's modern. That's why it's a western for people who don't like westerns. People I know who don't care for westerns say they either don't care about what's going on - the drama of the impending foreclosure of the ranch just doesn't grab them - or they don't like the style. But they can get into Tombstone.
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post #44 of 60
7/16/08 at 12:04am
Westerns are some of the purest cinema there is. I feel bad for people who dismiss the genre outright.
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post #45 of 60
6/13/10 at 12:19am
So I was thinking about watching this but wanted some baclground on which version to watch. Is the director's cut better? Significantly different? Given all the back story between Russell and Cosmatos I figure it might be worth asking before watching.
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post #46 of 60
6/13/10 at 12:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Eastwood liked to say that jazz and the Western are the only two art forms invented by the USA.
This quote's been thrown around a lot, and I agree with it, although I also agree with those who would add the detective novel (as pioneered by Poe and then the pulp writers of the 30s) and the modern musical. (I think Time magazine suggested the latter.)
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post #47 of 60
6/13/10 at 12:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
This quote's been thrown around a lot, and I agree with it, although I also agree with those who would add the detective novel (as pioneered by Poe and then the pulp writers of the 30s) and the modern musical. (I think Time magazine suggested the latter.)
Don't forget the comic book.
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post #48 of 60
6/13/10 at 12:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pop Zeus View Post
So I was thinking about watching this but wanted some baclground on which version to watch. Is the director's cut better? Significantly different? Given all the back story between Russell and Cosmatos I figure it might be worth asking before watching.
It's largely unchanged. More of the same, with a couple more Kilmer and Rooker scenes. I guess the original's a bit better paced, but it's negligible.
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post #49 of 60
6/13/10 at 1:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
This quote's been thrown around a lot, and I agree with it, although I also agree with those who would add the detective novel (as pioneered by Poe and then the pulp writers of the 30s) and the modern musical. (I think Time magazine suggested the latter.)
Don Winslow and I often talk about how the detective novel is the modern take on the western. The Dawn Patrol, for instance, just substitutes surfboards and cars for horses and I told him once that The Winter of Frankie Machine is a lot like Unforgiven.
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post #50 of 60
6/13/10 at 1:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
It's largely unchanged. More of the same, with a couple more Kilmer and Rooker scenes. I guess the original's a bit better paced, but it's negligible.
Yeah, there's barely a difference. The one scene that stands out in memory that's on the DC is when Holliday leaves Big Nose Kate behind; it wasn't in the theatrical release, and it's an interesting character moment for Holliday, but it doesn't really tell us anything we didn't already know.

And love the shit out of this movie. Definitely one of my favorites.
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