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The Watchmen Pre-Release Discussion (Spoilery Version)

post #1 of 2440
7/17/08 at 10:02pm
Thread Starter 
Just thought I would open this thread as a free for all for anyone wanting to discuss the film, and not piss anyone off that hasn't read the graphic novel.

Some people don't read comics, but like watching movies. Let's not ruin it for them by posting about main character deaths and the like in the regular threads.
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post #2 of 2440
7/17/08 at 10:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krish-0 View Post
Some people don't read comics, but like watching movies. Let's not ruin it for them by posting about main character deaths and the like in the regular threads.
Anybody who has a strong interest in Watchmen but no interest in reading the book is unworthy of courtesy.*

*I'm half joking. But only half.
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post #3 of 2440
7/17/08 at 11:31pm
Nite Owl has to be reacting to Rorschach's death in that snow scene. In th ebook he just sort of stands around listening to Veidt; maybe they gave him something else to do for that climax.


Comedian has a pin-up of Carla Gugino framed on his wall. Awww.


Rorshach's mask pattern is shifting when he throws Moloch against the wall.
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post #4 of 2440
7/17/08 at 11:37pm
Apparently, in the film, the Rorschach/Nite Owl relationship is explored a bit more than it was in the book. Nite Owl's reaction to his death is related to that. I wonder how they'll segue from that scene to Dan and Laurie by the pool.

Also, after watching the trailer for the fiftieth time, Rorschach's voice still gets me. I'm a little shocked that it came out of Jackie Earle Haley.
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post #5 of 2440
7/18/08 at 12:02am
"The world will say... 'save us!' ... and I'll whisper: No."

I think I'm just going to start saying that randomly at different times of the day just to see the look on people's faces.

I am so excited this is happening, you can't even imagine.

(please don't fuck it up Zack)
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post #6 of 2440
7/18/08 at 12:07am
still think the best shot is Manhattan appearing at the lounge area. And Comedian smiling after using the flamethrower.

Can't wait to see the rest. They are going to be some long 9 months for sure.
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post #7 of 2440
7/18/08 at 12:14am
I loved The Comedian taking a swing at Veidt and taking a chunk out of the wall.
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post #8 of 2440
7/18/08 at 12:31am
Ok... Assuming the shot of Nite Owl doing the Luke Skywalker/Young Obi Wan shuffle is a reaction to Dr. Manhattan's -ahem- "solution" to the Rorschach problem, I think we can expect a much more operatic take on the finale.

This is not necessarily a bad thing (Poetic licence is allowed as long as they do it justice) but it does raise the question: Are they going all the way with the ending? Or will they tweak it slightly to make it more "satisfying" for mainstream audiences?

I'm torn on this issue. Because... On the one hand, as a lover of the source material, I want it to be an exact adaptation. But, on the other hand I understand that certain concessions may have to be made.

It's a tough call. What do you guys think?
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post #9 of 2440
7/18/08 at 12:40am
I think the ending is a big part of this thing as a whole. If you're going to change the ending, why make it in the first place?

Oh, and I thought these guys mostly didn't have powers (Dr. Manhattan obviously an exception). But, what's with punching chunks out of walls? Cheap walls?
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post #10 of 2440
7/18/08 at 12:48am
He's strong.


And i think he'll respect the ending (not the monster, but the plan of a big tragedy and Rorschach).
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post #11 of 2440
7/18/08 at 12:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
I think the ending is a big part of this thing as a whole. If you're going to change the ending, why make it in the first place?
I agree with you on principle of course. I'm just saying they may end up not necessarily "changing" the ending per se, but tweaking it in order to make it more cinematically satisfying for general audiences.

Don't get me wrong, I love the book to pieces. I don't want them to change a thing. But this whole speculation of the Nite Owl shot already implies a change. If you're willing to accept that change, we may have to be prepared to accept some other ones as well.

And, make no mistake, having Nite Owl there with an emotional reaction is a BIG change... Because you're taking an event that in the book is seen as something that they accept as inevitable and making it into something dramatic and moving. (Not that it wasn't moving in the book... I always thought that moment when Rorschach says "DO IT!" was incredibly powerful - but it was for the reader, not the other characters in the story)

Anyway, I think this change affects the entire tone of the climax.
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post #12 of 2440
7/18/08 at 2:29am
It's funny that he's being so accurate in so many areas, but from what I hear, there's no squid. Which is a pity since I think the images of New York with all the dead bodies and these crazy tentacles everywhere are the ones most burned into my brain.
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post #13 of 2440
7/18/08 at 3:57am
Someone's moving on the left edge of the frame in the first of the two shots that compose Veidt's assassination attempt. I hope this is still his assistant, whose last words are about how you're here one moment, gone the next. I seem to remember the attempt taking place in a crowded interior.

I've never seen 300, and probably never will. I think there's something irresponsible about selling a film with Middle Easterners as unironic bad guys and Spartans as lovers of freedom to millions of American teenagers. It may not be that film, but I just try to watch and I can never sit through it. I also hate speed-up-slo-mo. Nevertheless, I keep watching this trailer.

I wonder what will replace the squid.
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post #14 of 2440
7/18/08 at 4:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felt Pelt View Post
I wonder what will replace the squid.
I read some speculation in another thread, but I won't repeat in case I get it totally wrong. I suspect Devin and few other chewers know.
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post #15 of 2440
7/18/08 at 6:43am
My co-worker and I went to see Dark Knight, and before heading to the theater, he asked me what trailers did I think would play. Boy, did I have a grin on my face. I explained Watchmen to him and told him I'd probably geek out when it starts. I did. In fact, I was the first to 'wooh', to which about a fourth of the theater replied(and a curious fellow yelled out "Someone explain to me what that was").

My co-worker then turned to me and said "That was pretty badass". He'll be getting my copies of Watchmen tomorrow.


So anyway, I heard the squid stays in the picture.
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post #16 of 2440
7/18/08 at 6:44am
You heard wrong.
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post #17 of 2440
7/18/08 at 8:37am
As I understand it the Squid has been replaced with multiple lasers fired from sateliites into major cities all over the world

Veidt has set up a broadcast all over the world in Dr. Manhattan's voice, warning humanity to basically shape up or he'll destroy them for good - the cities are destroyed as a warning.

Instead of the threat of a pychic-alien invasion bringing humanity together it is the threat of Dr Manhattan...

based on the trailer shots of Dr. M, this ending will work as he is clearly god-like, however as so much appears to have been slavishly modeled on the source i wish the squid had stayed in
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post #18 of 2440
7/18/08 at 9:17am
I wonder if the squid was excised due to them most likely dropping all the bits with the artists and scientists creating it. Because Veidt has to get the squid from somewhere, and without that build-up, him just saying "Oh, I had this genetically engineered" at the end might ring a little hollow. So they go with a cataclysmic power that we'll see throughout the film, therefore requiring no extra set-up.
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post #19 of 2440
7/18/08 at 9:45am
Anyone think that Nite Owl looks a bit too fit? I always liked the sad, silly image of a pudgy, over-the-hill Dan Dreiberg squeezing himself back into his costume.
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post #20 of 2440
7/18/08 at 9:55am
If they don't have the squid....fuck it, they better have something cool.
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post #21 of 2440
7/18/08 at 9:55am
Okay, am I the only one who finds the whole "Rorshach's mask morphs through the film" concept to be, well, a touch dumb?

I mean, everyone on the net seems to be giving the idea a free pass or saying it'll look cool, but I don't understand, within the context of the story and the history of how the character created his mask in the first place, why it's actually there or going to work, let alone whether it'll be cool or not.

What am I missing here?
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post #22 of 2440
7/18/08 at 10:04am
In the book the mask was cut from a dress that was a fluid suspended between two layers--that is the practical explanation.

Symbolically it works for the character, because he is a psychologically damaged person who sees things in simple black and white terms--his name is, appropriately, Rorschach.

It is also accurate because his face does shift in the comic from event to event and panel to panel.

It's also cool and disturbing to see an emotionally blank face that is shifting and changing.

What is your problem with this, exactly?
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post #23 of 2440
7/18/08 at 10:05am
In the comic Rorschach's mask changed from panel to panel, ostensibly reflecting his emotions and thoughts. And the fabric he made the mask from was a spinoff of the technology spawned by Dr. Manhattan.
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post #24 of 2440
7/18/08 at 10:06am
ThomasMN beat me to it, nevermind!
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post #25 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
I wonder if the squid was excised due to them most likely dropping all the bits with the artists and scientists creating it. Because Veidt has to get the squid from somewhere, and without that build-up, him just saying "Oh, I had this genetically engineered" at the end might ring a little hollow. So they go with a cataclysmic power that we'll see throughout the film, therefore requiring no extra set-up.
Yeah, that's kind of what I was assuming, too, which would also mean less (or maybe zero) time spent on the other genetic engineering experiments involved in the Ozymandius subplot, Bubastis included. That's neat, visual stuff, but not exactly essential.

I think this may prove to be a pretty good move, since the plot is pretty packed already, and the explanation for Veidt's plan as conceived in the book is pretty complicated. Snyder can probably do more justice to the main ideas of the source material by emphasizing what Veidt hopes to accomplish rather than strictly adhering to Moore's details.
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post #26 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
You heard wrong.
Aw, fuck that noise.
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post #27 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
What am I missing here?
An open heart and a childlike sense of wonder.

And if I had to put on my complain-y pants, I'm getting the sense that Rorschach's diary bit ("...and I'll whisper, 'no'") is being played as totally badass, which is a misstep. Or maybe it's just being misread by fans. Or used out of context. I got nothin'. It's a purty trailer, nobody knows anything yet.
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post #28 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:06am
Did they really ultimately go with the space lasers? Really really?
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post #29 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
Yeah, that's kind of what I was assuming, too, which would also mean less (or maybe zero) time spent on the other genetic engineering experiments involved in the Ozymandius subplot, Bubastis included. That's neat, visual stuff, but not exactly essential.
You could still have Bubastis, but he'd be nothing more than a cool detail. I mean, you could show a smaller version of the squid in Veidt's lab and have him dismiss it as "something I'm working on," and then when the giant version slams into NYC it becomes clear he created it, but that may be asking the audience to do too much legwork.

Quote:
I think this may prove to be a pretty good move, since the plot is pretty packed already, and the explanation for Veidt's plan as conceived in the book is pretty complicated. Snyder can probably do more justice to the main ideas of the source material by emphasizing what Veidt hopes to accomplish rather than strictly adhering to Moore's details.
Bingo. Just like Jackson's changes to LOTR were true to the spirit of the story, as long as Snyder's changes are made to better serve the story as a film, I'm not going to cry foul.
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post #30 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlasgowChivas View Post
As I understand it the Squid has been replaced with multiple lasers fired from sateliites into major cities all over the world

Veidt has set up a broadcast all over the world in Dr. Manhattan's voice, warning humanity to basically shape up or he'll destroy them for good - the cities are destroyed as a warning.

Instead of the threat of a pychic-alien invasion bringing humanity together it is the threat of Dr Manhattan...

based on the trailer shots of Dr. M, this ending will work as he is clearly god-like, however as so much appears to have been slavishly modeled on the source i wish the squid had stayed in
Wasn´t that laser and Dr. Manhattan as faux villain stuff from an older draft (Hayter on Tse)?
While I completely get why the "artists create the sqib" stuff is missing from the script because of time issues as stated above, I would have a problem with shifting Dr. Manhattan into a tool.
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post #31 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:11am
I'm okay with space lasers. Not so much okay if Ozymandias is really putting the blame on Doc Manhattan. It turns the end pages from being about humanity banding together to deal with an unforeseen disaster into humanity banding together to say "Fuck you, Blue Man Group."
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post #32 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:14am
Was the end really about humanity's reaction to what happened or the morality of Ozymandias doing it and the rest of the group staying quiet about it?

Also, does this mean Dr. Manhattan is in on it? Or does Ozymandias use his voice without him knowing?
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post #33 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:17am
I always took it that Dr. Manhattan merely makes the logical assumption that Veidt´s plan indeed works from the perspective of an unaffected outsider based purely on reason and logic.

Making him a part of the plan, willing or unwilling, does kind of sabotage that "pure" logic since it will give him a motivation that is not in the book.
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post #34 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:18am
That's the thing: the morality would be ruined too, since it allows humanity to focus the hate on a tangible, already demonized figurehead instead of just seeing how insignificant fighting each other is on their own terms. That's not nearly as strong a statement in the scheme of things.
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post #35 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post
That's the thing: the morality would be ruined too, since it allows humanity to focus the hate on a tangible, already demonized figurehead instead of just seeing how insignificant fighting each other is on their own terms. That's not nearly as strong a statement in the scheme of things.
And this. Well put Sir.
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post #36 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:20am
Excellent point.
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post #37 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Was the end really about humanity's reaction to what happened or the morality of Ozymandias doing it and the rest of the group staying quiet about it?
But any discussion humanity's reaction to the event is inseparable from Veidt's morality (or his vision of it, anyway).

My main problem with Veidt using Manhattan as the threat is one of believability: if Doc's been a tool of American foreign muscle for 15+ years, there's no way the Russians are going to believe that he's turned on all of humanity. They'd see it as a trick to get them to disarm.
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post #38 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Excellent point.
Seconded!
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post #39 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:41am
Is it possible the space lasers are presented as an alien invasion, with no involvement from Manhattan?
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post #40 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt M View Post
But any discussion humanity's reaction to the event is inseparable from Veidt's morality (or his vision of it, anyway).

My main problem with Veidt using Manhattan as the threat is one of believability: if Doc's been a tool of American foreign muscle for 15+ years, there's no way the Russians are going to believe that he's turned on all of humanity. They'd see it as a trick to get them to disarm.
Good point. At the very least, Veidt would have to attribute some sort of believable motive to Manhattan, and, even if he does that and the world buys it, there would be the potential problem of Manhattan coming forward to deny responsibility and implicate Veidt.

Ideally, Snyder will maintain the general idea of an otherworldly invader attacking (rather than Manhattan attacking) even without the complicated squid scenario.
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post #41 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Is it possible the space lasers are presented as an alien invasion, with no involvement from Manhattan?
I think that would be kind of difficult to pull off. The threat that unites humanity needs a "face" (or squib).
Some lasers out of nowhere would be kind of silly.
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post #42 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
I think that would be kind of difficult to pull off. The thread that unites humanity needs a "face" (or squib).
Some lasers out of nowhere would be kind of silly.
But a giant, dying telepathic space squid isn't?
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post #43 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
But a giant, dying telepathic space squid isn't?
It is a "face". It is not a nameless threat out of nowhere. Sure the concept as such is inherently silly, but that is kind of beside my point.
Humans tend to give nameless enemies a face to cope with the threat.
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post #44 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Is it possible the space lasers are presented as an alien invasion, with no involvement from Manhattan?
That's what the Hayter draft did, I think. The Tse revision introduced the faux-Manhattan.
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post #45 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
It is a "face". It is not a nameless threat out of nowhere. Sure the concept as such is inherently silly, but that is kind of beside my point.
Humans tend to give nameless enemies a face to cope with the thread.
I'm assuming that the enemy wouldn't be entirely "faceless." There would have to be something that connects it to an otherworldly threat, because without that, a Cold War-era U.S. would simply assume that the U.S.S.R. was responsible.

It's just that using Manhattan's face poses a number of problems that don't exist in the alien scenario (whether it be the squid or some other variation).
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post #46 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
I'm assuming that the enemy wouldn't be entirely "faceless." There would have to be something that connects it to an otherworldly threat, because without that, a Cold War-era U.S. would simply assume that the U.S.S.R. was responsible.

It's just that using Manhattan's face poses a number of problems that don't exist in the alien scenario (whether it be the squid or some other variation).
I agree. I was just pointing out that it is it opens another can of worms story wise to just go with lasers (even without Dr. Manhattans involvement) without giving it some kind of "otherworldy" explanation or backstory.
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post #47 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:53am
Yeah, it seems to me that for the menace to have the sphincter-tightening terror Ozymandias intended, it would have to be something no one has seen before. Implying that Manhattan has gone rogue doesn't seem to fit the bill. Unless you go the route that he's involved in Vietnam, then becomes disillusioned and quits and disappears for 20 years. Then suddenly he shows up and says, "Everybody play nice!" But even that doesn't work as well.
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post #48 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:57am
Im also on the "no problems with changes if it keeps the spirit and ideas of the original material", although Moore has not been so lucky on that area ("From Hell", "V for Vendetta").
As for the NightOwl scream, I having my doubts...if there are some changes, the scene could be part of the "bullet" sequence or the reveal of Hollis Mason's fate.
On a sidenote: I am the only one dreading the moment when some idiot will scream "They stole that from "The Incredibles"!" when Veidt's plan is revealed? (although, having no Squid would lesser the chances of that)
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post #49 of 2440
7/18/08 at 11:59am
Either that or fucking "Heroes". It is bound to happen.
On the other hand that is a testament to the impact and influence "Watchmen" had on pop-culture even without people realizing it.
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post #50 of 2440
7/18/08 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
Either that or fucking "Heroes". It is bound to happen.
On the other hand that is a testament to the impact and influence "Watchmen" had on pop-culture even without people realizing it.
And here I had mercifully forgotten about "Heroes"....thank you for soiling mt brain again.
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