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Sony unleashes the wrath of feminists, game in question is oddly cute.

post #1 of 208
7/23/08 at 12:18am
Thread Starter 
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.c...e-letters.html

http://www.feministgamers.com/?p=466

Madness!
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post #2 of 208
7/23/08 at 12:35am
Didn't get a chance to play it last week, but heard the game is incredibly fun. You'd think they would like that the hero was trying to pick up a fat chick for once.
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post #3 of 208
7/23/08 at 12:42am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Riviello View Post
Didn't get a chance to play it last week, but heard the game is incredibly fun. You'd think they would like that the hero was to pick up a fat chick for once.
Ive heard good things about the game as well...what a shame that you didnt get to play it, Alex, I would'd loved to heard more about it.
The best they can do (besides paying no attention), is go full PC on it and make the gender of the army and princess user set, call the game "Fat Royalty"....seriously, had the game been called "Fat Prince" instead caused any controversy?

PS: My eldest nieces (12 and 10) walked by when i was browsing Kotaku and went nuts over another princess themed game, "Princess Debut". I get a feeling of dread over getting consulted on how to play it when its released.
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post #4 of 208
7/23/08 at 11:52am
Quote:
Honestly, the “core game mechanics” are brilliant, and if I didn’t care one whit about the objectification of women or fat-bashing, I would think this was the best thing since… well, Team Fortress 2. And I’m quite sure that this describes 99% of the PSN players out there, so I’m sure the game will do very well.
Pretty much.

That said, for those that do care, their outrage is justified.
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post #5 of 208
7/23/08 at 12:13pm
That sounds like a very fun game.

Oh, those Japanese.
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post #6 of 208
7/23/08 at 12:31pm
I don't get this "controversy".
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post #7 of 208
7/23/08 at 12:37pm
If we're going to pick nits, the fattening mechanic doesn't seem nearly as offensive as the "stealing a helpless woman from a castle" mechanic. Steak-n-Shakespearsister is missing the B-B-Q value platter for the chili fries.

I'll show myself to hell.
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post #8 of 208
7/23/08 at 1:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minsky View Post
If we're going to pick nits, the fattening mechanic doesn't seem nearly as offensive as the "stealing a helpless woman from a castle" mechanic.
They're kinda hand in hand, along with the whole "if it was Fat Prince" thing. A fat dude in a video game is no big deal, probably a happy go lucky, confident guy, heart of gold, fights his ass off, probably has a loveable kid or something you have to save, etc. It's just not a big deal, because the game doesn't make it a big deal. Yeah, there are fat dudes who are villains, too, but at least there's portrayals on the opposite side of the spectrum.

Fat chick in a video game, she can't move, has to have a small army of characters to haul her around, and does nothing but sit around and eat/get fed cake all day. Or, she's a villain.

Ordinarily, I'd just sigh at the lack of diversity sans stereotypes in gaming, and continue to look forward to the game, albeit tentatively, but just the fact that some women are highly pissed has brought out the absolute worst in a lot of the gaming community, to the point where I think these women have every right to raise some hell over it.
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post #9 of 208
7/23/08 at 1:44pm
I agree, although the fat thing is just icing on the cake. Gravityshackle your food-crazed woman to the ground by throwing cakes and ice cream cones at her! It would be much less offensive if there were a fat little prince to counterbalance.

I wonder if you can roll the princess down the stairs to crush invading troops.
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post #10 of 208
7/23/08 at 2:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minsky
It would be much less offensive if there were a fat little prince to counterbalance.
Yeah, just have one group kidnap a prince and one group a princess and bam, no more sexism. Problem solved! The trouble is that Fat Princess is such an attention grabbing title that I can understand why marketing went that way. Fat Royalty or Fat Prince don't evoke the same concept immediately that Fat Princess does (especially when it comes to videogames).

Still, it's hard not to respond annoyingly when the people complaining use sentences like, "I'm positively thrilled to see such unyielding dedication to creating a new generation of fat-hating, heteronormative assholes." Seriously, heteronormative?
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post #11 of 208
7/23/08 at 2:27pm
Plus, had they included a fat prince, OR inlcluded a multi-gender work force, this whole thing could have been subversive commentary on how the ruling class both subjugates and relies on the proletariat.
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post #12 of 208
7/23/08 at 2:34pm
You can't have a multi-gender army! That would be historically inaccurate!

It also isn't clear to me, are you trying to steal your princess back or take their princess from them? Is the fattening happening by friend or foe?

There is also the idea that they're feeding her sweets and cake and ice cream or whatever because she's a woman. I'd say it's more that the princess is a child and kids love sweets. But again, having a fat prince would have made that point.
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post #13 of 208
7/23/08 at 2:40pm
For the record, I'd be supremely pissed at this if I were an obese female game aficionado, and yes, I say "aficionado" because I refuse to use the term "gamer."

But it would be nothing a good pint of Blue Bell Butterstachio Extreme wouldn't fix! OH FAT JOKES I hate myself so so so much.
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post #14 of 208
7/23/08 at 2:41pm
There's an update post on Shakesville about the responses she's received to her initial post linked to above by ryoken. There sure are some pure, uncut class acts out there on the internet -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Sterling of the website Destructoid
Even worse is a writer at Shakesville, who took time out of doing her husband's laundry to write this: "Congrats on your awesome new game, Sony. I'm positively thrilled to see such unyielding dedication to creating a new generation of fat-hating, heteronormative assholes." As you can see, she uses "words" like "heteronormative" to sound clever and informed, a tactic which invariably fails and makes one look presumptuous and pretentious. ... Word to the wise: Sarcastic fat girls don't go to the prom!
If you follow my link, you'll see that she also links to a very nice pair of pictures. In one, her head has been Photoshopped onto the Fat Princess. In the other, her face has been sliced up a la The Joker and the words "Why So Serious?" have been carved into her forehead.

The misogynistic asshole nerdboys of the world can fucking bite me.
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post #15 of 208
7/23/08 at 2:42pm
ETA: MissZooey beats me to it.

I love how the internet response is to make the most offensive fat/sexist jokes possible. I'm not here to discuss how there could be a reason you feel the way you do, fat jokes and photoshop instead!
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post #16 of 208
7/23/08 at 2:47pm
The reactions, on both sides, are stupid, ignorant, childish and filled with hate for both genders. And yeah...no...still not seeing it. Game looks like fun.
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post #17 of 208
7/23/08 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontEATnachos View Post
ETA: MissZooey beats me to it.

I love how the internet response is to make the most offensive fat/sexist jokes possible. I'm not here to discuss how there could be a reason you feel the way you do, fat jokes and photoshop instead!
Ah, human nature. If there was a God he'd have hit Ctrl-Alt-Del on our sorry asses by now.
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post #18 of 208
7/23/08 at 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Happenin
no...still not seeing it.
You don't see how a game called Fat Princess where the only female characters are made really fat with cake, ice cream, and sweets, and then helplessly carried around by male characters could possibly be viewed as sexist.
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post #19 of 208
7/23/08 at 2:51pm
I'm going to be honest and admit some poor form...outside of reading the post to which Zooey linked, I haven't read the rest of this woman's opposition to the game. I can certainly see why she'd be offended in some respects, but heteronormative, really? Again, without having read her justification, that seems like looking for reasons to hate the game, unless she's tacking serious baggage onto the definition of heteronormative. (For example, it is assumed that, by making the woman helpless and unable to resist sweets, you're reinforcing the traditional concept of heterosexuality, which seems to really stretch credibility)
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post #20 of 208
7/23/08 at 2:52pm
I thought fat people were supposed to be jolly...
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post #21 of 208
7/23/08 at 2:58pm
^ Hey look! A Garfield reference.

Seriously, between this and all the Dark Knight BS, I'm ready to just hit "reset" on the internet and restore a backup from a few weeks ago. We're all losing right now.
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post #22 of 208
7/23/08 at 2:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The LD View Post
I'm going to be honest and admit some poor form...outside of reading the post to which Zooey linked, I haven't read the rest of this woman's opposition to the game. I can certainly see why she'd be offended in some respects, but heteronormative, really? Again, without having read her justification, that seems like looking for reasons to hate the game, unless she's tacking serious baggage onto the definition of heteronormative. (For example, it is assumed that, by making the woman helpless and unable to resist sweets, you're reinforcing the traditional concept of heterosexuality, which seems to really stretch credibility)
LD, the relationship between heteronormativity and the female form is a pretty well-established trope in feminist theory. Perhaps Melissa could have better served the portion of her audience who isn't familiar with this by going into a bit more detail, but here's the Wikipedia entry on the theory of the Gaze (esp. the section entitled "Gaze and Feminist Theory"). From my uterus-having, skirt-wearin' perspective, it's really not that much of a stretch at all.
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post #23 of 208
7/23/08 at 2:59pm
This Feministe post has a fairly well laid out argument. There may be some stuff you disagree with but it's not childish and is certainly calmly and clearly explained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excerpt from Feministe post
Look, the humor here is not that hard to understand, especially if you look at the last few decades of gaming. There’s a classic fairy-tale trope in video games going back to Donkey Kong where a male protagonist must rescue the damsel in distress. “Thank you Mario! But our princess is in another castle!” Sound familiar? You don’t need to be a brilliant feminist scholar to realize that this kind of story, with a male hero rescuing a helpless girl, is not only a cliche but a sexist cliche that long predates the invention of Pong. That’s why it’s a Good Thing that Nintendo let Princess Zelda and Princess Peach kick as much ass as everyone else in the Super Smash Brothers series and other games. Even though they’re still wearing cheesy princess dresses, making them playable characters who can hold their own has gone a long way towards redeeming their origins as passive prizes to be collected.

Fat Princess is a send-up of that tired old cliche. Believe me, there are a lot of ways you could send up that cliche, but of all the possibilities, Titan chose to make the princess FAT. The joke here is also obvious: LOL who would want to rescue a fat chick? It’s a shtick that’s been used in animation and film plenty of times; the dashing hero thinks he’s rescuing a beautiful damsel in distress, but the “joke” is on him because it turns out she’s larger than acceptable! And therefore unattractive and a horrible burden for him to rescue, of course.

In Fat Princess it’s not an unexpected surprise, but more of a prank that the opposing forces play on each other. Each side has captured the other’s princess; in addition to fortifying, defending, and capturing territory, you can feed your captive food. Because women are helpless in the face of cake, of course, she just eats and eats. And of course, absolutely anyone who eats a lot is going to balloon up into a spherical caricature of a heavy person, right? That’s how fat people get made! And of course she’s so heavy that it takes a whole crowd of soldiers to carry her! Because that’s what fat people are like! The cartoon-logic is impeccable. It’s also very recognizable, from a long history of our culture mocking the fat, blaming fat people for their bodies, perpetuating all sorts of bullshit about fat. It’s so recognizable that it doesn’t really need to be explained to anyone who has a problem with this kind of mockery.

The most ridiculous gamer-community defenses of this game are the flimsy ones that claim that Fat Princess doesn’t really perpetuate negative stereotypes about fat people, or that it’s pro-fat because you’re trying to rescue a fat girl. I’m sorry, but it’s been obvious since it was announced at E3 that a lot of people found this game downright hilarious. Just look at the coverage from last week. And it wasn’t because of the cartoony little soldier boys and girls hacking each other up; Castle Crashers, another hotly anticipated game with a similar art style and theme, didn’t get the same “OMFG I’m laughing my ass off” reaction. The game is absurd, deliberately so, because of the inclusion of the eponymous Fat Princess.

And that boils down to making fun of fat people, whether it’s overtly mean and cruel, or just “played for laughs” in that way that meant Chris Farley had no choice but to play a blustering oaf. The reason “token fat guy” is a sidekick in that god-awful Not Another Teen Movie. Because fat people are automatically jolly and hilarious, right? Look, just admit it. You think the game is funny because of the fat girl. Society teaches us that this is funny. I used to think fat people were inherently hilarious too — when I was 15 years old. Then I grew the fuck up and realized it made me an asshole.
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post #24 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:00pm
Man, next thing you know they'll be saying that RE5 is racis...
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post #25 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:02pm
I'm pretty sure this is a harmless video game with an odd concept.

Still, free publicity!

Also, isn't this fat-ism as opposed to sexism?
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post #26 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:03pm
I <3 Feministe. And that's why.
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post #27 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:07pm
So, would my game 'Shlubby Hubby' about you having to work the male character to death to keep up the house, fly? I'm thinking it might, if only by name alone!
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post #28 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:08pm
If a girl is influenced by the game to stay thin, I say great. The only way a girl that dumb is going to be successful in life is to marry rich.

While there is truth in the criticism find it funny this is the game people are getting riled up about this game, with the misogyny that Soul Calibur IV embodies only days away.
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post #29 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:13pm
Those girls do kick a lot of ass in SCIV, will give them that.
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post #30 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:15pm
If there wasn't enough evidence we are living in a extremely politically correct culture right now. Good lord.
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post #31 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:16pm
I think what makes this spark *new* criticism is that she's fat. Obviously they're used to the objectification of women in video games for young males. With the addition of potentially making fun of fat women on top of that we are introducing a kind of concept that we're not as habituated to.

I hate to keep quoting the Feministe article but the point is basically that one could argue that fat women are being portrayed as helpless while fat men are usually not. There are clearly examples of games like Street Fighter or whatever where fat males are still fully capable. In this game though, once the woman gets fat she's completely helpless.

Quote:
A strategy game with a name like Fat Princess could feature the princess as one of your most important military units, powerful and important for strategy because she’s fat. (And if you think that means she’s a sphere that rolls other units over, you’re missing the point by a mile.) Or, like any number of large male characters in games — Barret from Final Fantasy VII and E. Honda from Street Fighter both come to mind — her weight could simply not be a big deal. But that’s probably too much to ask from a culture where fat women get treated like pariahs far more than fat guys do.

...

To get the taste of Fat Princess out of your mouth, I’d like to give you all a trailer of a less offensive game. Sadly, I can’t give you anything that portrays large women in a positive or even neutral light. I don’t know if such a game even exists, which says a lot about the context here, about what’s reprehensible or responsible.
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post #32 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:18pm
Its still based of the same old cliche of beauty, which has always existed in video games and manifested in much worse ways.
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post #33 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:21pm
Fine. She can save her own damn self. No need to send all these soldiers to their deaths.
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post #34 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:29pm
Again, my point isn't that that is the only interpretation but that I can understand why someone would feel that way.

Minsky's given examples of a couple of different things that could be done to demonstrate how that isn't the goal or even an intention of the game. The thrust of a lot of these blog posts, at least from my perspective, isn't to stop this game from being made, it's just to make sure that whoever is creating it and whoever is consuming it is aware of the social connotations that are associated with it.
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post #35 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcassady
If a girl is influenced by the game to stay thin, I say great. The only way a girl that dumb is going to be successful in life is to marry rich.

While there is truth in the criticism find it funny this is the game people are getting riled up about this game, with the misogyny that Soul Calibur IV embodies only days away.
The character design in Soul Calibur is physical objectification, but the women in that series are at least (by video game standards, anyway) strong, developed, motivated characters with a story, and that's fairly obvious from the opening cinema. DOA's worse, but nobody plays those games for the story, and at the very least, those who spend any measure of time with it know that the females are very much the best, most powerful characters in the game.

All we know about the princesses in Fat Princess is they're helpless and love cake. Big difference.
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post #36 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:38pm
Come on. Adding that Chung Li's father got whacked or Sophitia is protecting her village (or whatever the fuck her purpose is) does not change the fact that they are nothing more than tits with weapons.
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post #37 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:45pm
Jcassady, it's all about having agency and who's driving the narrative of a given text. That's the difference.
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post #38 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:49pm
No f-ing way.
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post #39 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissZooey View Post
Jcassady, it's all about having agency and who's driving the narrative of a given text. That's the difference.
Jesus Christ. Guess you've never played Street Fighter before.
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post #40 of 208
7/23/08 at 3:59pm
Seriously? This is worth getting worked up over?

Barbie is worth getting worked up over. Bratz is worth getting worked up over. Photoshopped and airbrushed magazine and internet pictures of already thin young women are worth getting worked up over. The fashion industry is worth getting worked up over. The images of women in DOA or Lara Croft are worth getting worked up over.

Some focus and perspective would help the critics here.
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post #41 of 208
7/23/08 at 4:10pm
I think the last time I played Street Fighter I was 12 and hanging out at my local roller rink, so, yeah, it has been quite a while. That being said, at least the large-breasted cartoon character in question has a motive, for God's sake, instead of just hanging out and waiting for her next cupcake.

Specific games aside, my point was that there are so many women up in arms about the way we are portrayed in the media (fat, thin, whatever) because there are so many female characters like Fat Princess - i.e. - helpless plot devices who only exist in service to the larger, male-oriented narrative. And when someone bothers to point this out, despite knowing full well what's going to happen, the general reaction is dismissive. That's all.
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post #42 of 208
7/23/08 at 4:13pm
Given the ghoulish things I see every day in the news, a reaction of dismissal is pretty apt.
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post #43 of 208
7/23/08 at 4:15pm
So a transparent motive is better than no motive?

At least Fat Princess isn't lying to the gamer.
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post #44 of 208
7/23/08 at 4:19pm
Oh, ok. So I guess the developers should just throw a motive in there for her obesity. Maybe she's been in an abusive relationship and can only find comfort by sitting around eating food she's given. Bingo, no more controversy!

The thing that none of those feminist blogs seem to understand is the fact that the name and concept behind the game is clever and funny. It's simple and to the point, and hardly malicious. Just the fact that they're trying to offer up ways the game could have had the same mechanics without being offensive (Velcro Princess!) shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes the unique, and why it's probably going to sell decently. It's funny to see a hero rescue a roly poly princess. (It's also pretty funny to see a cutesy, cell-shaded game with incredibly bloody and violent animations, but that's an argument for another board.)

Plus, I'm sure the developers are loving all the attention now being heaped upon their harmless little game.

The reaction by some gamers to those blogs was mean and predictable, sure, but not any less predictable than Zooey posting in this thread.
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post #45 of 208
7/23/08 at 4:35pm
Also, for anyone playing at home, the tiny bit of footage that has kicked off all this "controversy" - http://www.gametrailers.com/player/37308.html
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post #46 of 208
7/23/08 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Riviello View Post
Also, for anyone playing at home, the tiny bit of footage that has kicked off all this "controversy" - http://www.gametrailers.com/player/37308.html
That's way more violent than I thought it was going to be. Looks like a hell of a lot of fun.
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post #47 of 208
7/23/08 at 4:41pm
Yeah, the game looks hilariously fun and came out of nowhere. I'll say the people who say it got more buzz than Castle Crashers because it has fat people in it could be countered with the fact that Castle Crashers has been known for a while and didn't have any particularly new and exciting footage or hands-on shown this E3.
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post #48 of 208
7/23/08 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Egg View Post
Given the ghoulish things I see every day in the news, a reaction of dismissal is pretty apt.
There's degrees of newsworthiness between "Christian Bale yells at his drunk mother" and "Still More War Atrocities Planned For Next Tuesday". News is not binary. This, like damn near everything else, is somewhere in between those two extremes.

If this is to be dismissed out of hand, then what on CHUD is serious enough to warrant any further discussion? If anything, I'd say this is more worthy of discussion than a lot of what goes on here.
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post #49 of 208
7/23/08 at 5:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcassady View Post
Come on. Adding that Chung Li's father got whacked or Sophitia is protecting her village (or whatever the fuck her purpose is) does not change the fact that they are nothing more than tits with weapons.
As someone who has been in several situations involving anime/videogame fangirls, I can honestly say that about 99% of the pretty boys in japanese games are nothing but bishonen/yaoi material with weapons as well.

As for SCIV, the male characters are sporting six packs and handsome features as well...sure, the female sexification stands out much, MUCH more, but its part of an overall design choice.
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post #50 of 208
7/23/08 at 5:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissZooey View Post
I think the last time I played Street Fighter I was 12 and hanging out at my local roller rink, so, yeah, it has been quite a while. That being said, at least the large-breasted cartoon character in question has a motive, for God's sake, instead of just hanging out and waiting for her next cupcake.

Specific games aside, my point was that there are so many women up in arms about the way we are portrayed in the media (fat, thin, whatever) because there are so many female characters like Fat Princess - i.e. - helpless plot devices who only exist in service to the larger, male-oriented narrative. And when someone bothers to point this out, despite knowing full well what's going to happen, the general reaction is dismissive. That's all.
You make a fine point, but when a game presents an exception to this choice, its parise doesnt spark the same amount of effort and dedication than the bitching (poor choice of words) over "fat princess".
jade (Beyond Good & Evil), April/Zoe (LGJ, Dreamfall), Terra/Yuna/etc. (FF series), Cornet ("Rhapsody: A musical adventure"...shut up, you dont know how great that game is) and so on...ive never seen a feminist "gamer" get worked up in praise or support of characters like those, at least in the amount of effort they put on complaining over the "helpless princess" syndrome.
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