Sony unleashes the wrath of feminists, game in question is oddly cute. - Page 2

No one's arguing the game's core mechanic doesn't look fun, because it does. The problem is, for the women who are offended, there's no counterpoint image in the medium. If you want to see a guy who's 380 pounds who's not sucking down 30 pounds of White Castles, belches projectile beer, and scratches his ass, and is, in fact, treated like something resembling a human being, that portrayal is there in a couple dozen places. Find me a single image in gaming where a woman weighs more than 150lbs* and isn't:

A: A joke
B: The hero's "blink and she's gone" mom
C: Treated like shit.

That's an open dare.

The unspoken message is if you're fat, you're automatically less than human. If you're not a thin woman by any means, you have every right to complain when that's the only message the medium has ever given you.

*--For all the complaints about breast physics and "She kicks high" and whatnot, the funniest part about Dead or Alive is the conceit that I'm supposed to believe this chick weighs 106 pounds.

If a woman looked like Fat Princess in real life, people would kick her around like a gigantic ball. It's highly realistic - plus the japanese love fat people and clearly they don't interpret it as fatism.

Also, Nothing hotter than a big girl having fun with a few guys. Little game of kickaround never hurt anybody. You're all overreacting. Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball was sexist.

What's wrong with being sexy?

Ms Pac-Man?

BTW, the description from game sites says "Fat Princess puts you on a team of eight to 32 cute-as-pie cartoony male and female characters" so the helpless female criticism loses a bit of sting.

Besides, aiming the social activist gunbarrels at a cutesy comical title like this, no matter how noble the intent, just helps to reinforce the stereotype that feminists are humorless killjoys. Sorry, it does. Saying in all seriousness "Fat women are human beings, too! Stop mocking them!" in response to a cartoony game featuring medieval, day-glo midgets disemboweling one another is up there in terms of humorless fuckwittery. Gamers, like much of the online community, thrive on poking fun at people like that. There are valid points being made but this isn't the best situation to be using to bring them up.

Internet Nanny to the fucking rescue!

I understand the viewpoint that this game is promoting sexism and a pretty juvenile image of fat people, especially fat women, but this whole thing just strikes me as odd.

First off, the game. It's obviously going out of its way to be extremely exaggerated. I haven't received any impression that she's supposed to just be sitting there and munching on treats. It sounds like the idea is that she's been captured and force-fed fattening foods, specifically to make her cartoonishly balloon up. As for the criticism about, "Well, it makes it seem like fat people can't walk:" if you've gone from an acceptable weight(say, about 150) to somewhere closer to, oh, maybe 750, in that short period of time, you really aren't going to be able to just hop up and save yourself. A human being who's become that big, that fast, really cannot be ambulatory without assistance, and I don't think the army brought crutches.

Again, I understand why the portrayal could be considered offensive. It's just that the anger surrounding it is a little baffling. There are so many better things to be writing angry letters to companies for, even just focusing on feminism and the media. This is just a silly little game, and if anyone takes the portrayal of the titular Fat Princess seriously enough for it to alter their opinions of fat people and/or women in a negative fashion, why aren't we stoning them to death anyway?

ETA: Just for fun, if a lone brave, shining stallion of a knight showed up to rescue a princess, and she wound up being really fat...then yes. Yes, it would be a burden to rescue her, more so than if she were a skinny princess. It's fucking physics.

Five bucks says this is actually a stealthy condemnation of the disgusting and predatory "feeder/feedee" culture. Five crispy dollar bills, straight from a hobo's ass.

You know what? I object to this game too.

How many of our young men and women will have to face death and grievous injury, time after time, just so we can have another royal burden on our society back? Fuck the princess and her whole family. I'm moving to Canadalandia.

This criticism has inspired me to stop feeding the princess I have locked up in my basement.

I might agree if this wasn't the typical knee-jerk response from the gamer community in the last few days.

Even when N'Gai Croal was being torn a new one for the RE5/racism outcry, nobody resorted to calling him nigger or telling him to go back to Alabama and his plate of fried chicken and watermelon. The fat-prejudiced equivalent is happening here, and people are sort of okay with that. And that's just fucking sad.

As usual with this sort of thing, the initial complaints were just observations by a few women who found something offensive - they're not calling for a government ban on the game or protests in the street. And, as usual, instead of an equivalent response, those critiques are met mostly with an avalanche of geek scorn, sometimes in the form of ridicule, sometimes in the form of misogyny, and sometimes even in the form of threats.

Ultimately, it tends to not be the original subject or even the complaint about that subject that's most troublesome, but the response to that complaint. If you want an idea of why some women might be inclined to find fault with this game, don't just look at the game; look at how the gaming community (or, really, any sort of male-dominated community) functions around it. The game, itself, may be cute, fun, whatever. But, to some, it's going to pack symbolic values, as well - namely, that women are objects, fat women are funny or unattractive, and that they're essentially a burden. And the main reason why that symbolic value has any weight to it at all is because it seems to accurately represent the very real beliefs of a lot of men (see Justin's link, various comments on the original articles).

Yeah, the initial outrage at the game is what had me confused. The response from the community at large, though, bothers me immensely. It's bad enough that so many of the people responding have a complete lack of comprehension as to why the game's stereotypes might be offensive. If they saw the problem and just didn't find it personally offensive, that would be one thing.

The bellowing misogyny from many gamers is, in the most polite of terms, sad. I'm worried I might come off as hypocritical here, but my post above wasn't intended to denote any anger at the people concerned about the game; I just thought it seemed a little ridiculous to be so upset about it. Seeing things like Justin's link above, however, have essentially proven them right.

And, of course, Dave's right. It's not really about the game anymore. It's about the baggage attached to it, and how people read it. I'm still up for the stoning, by the way.

I think it's likely that most of the respondents to the initial complaints are your average gamers, i.e. teenage boys. Although a goodly portion will mature and become decent enough folk later in life, teenage boys are generally idiotic fuckwits (goodness knows I had some choice moments of douchebaggery as a teen). While certainly not an excuse for foul behavior, teen boys aren't really known for tactful, measured responses to something they find objectionable.

I guess what I'm saying is, given what I suspect to be the demographic composition of the dissenting crowd, the responses aren't surprising. The majority of boys are barely one step above wild beasts.

Hard to say what the actual demographics are, but there are certainly plenty of adult male gamers, as well (in age, if not always maturity). They'd probably do a lot more to defuse these situations by taking the less mature elements of the community to task for being idiots than by aiming exclusively at the feminist authors of the critiques. It might even go a long way toward making the feminist complaints less valid. As it stands, the idiocy and ferocity of the comments basically help support any claims that one might make about overall sexism in the gaming community. And if that overall sexism exists, it's a lot easier to find it reflected in, say, a specific game.

I'm going to bookmark this thread so it's handy for the next "Video games = Art!" thread. Apparently people can only think critically about video games on video gamers' terms.

I wholeheartedly agree with your point about taking the idiots to task. For instance, Destructoid, based on my few in-person encounters with, are the least mature video game journalists I've ever encountered.

On the other hand, I see these type of criticisms slipping into the "well some people might take it the wrong way so you shouldn't do it" territory.

And how often have those criticisms ever manifested in anything legitimately harmful? Remember that you framed your comment in terms of "shouldn't" not "shouldn't be able to" (an important distinction, since the former is merely a suggestion to an individual, the latter is a suggestion that something not be allowed).

Does it really handicap you that much to be mindful of your speech or actions so that you don't knowingly offend someone?

EDIT: flyarz's post wins.

It's the Andrew "Dice" Clay of video games. Awesome!

But that mindfulness will ultimately have a chilling effect on inoffensive expressions, just out fear of offending.

"Please don't make us have to think about what we say!"

Oh come on, that's bullshit.

That only tends to happen after the persecuted group has fought long and hard enough for their ideals to gain mainstream acceptance. Sad to say, for feminists and fat acceptance groups, that time is still a long ways off. Until then, I don't think asking people with nothing constructive to bring to the table to shut their fucking cakeholes and think is going to make satire a thing of the past.

Why is it that the idea of being aware of your surroundings is so offensive?

I'd rather have games that offend (and I'm not using Fat Princess as an example) the overly-sensitive rather than have games that don't even come close to the line.

And that isn't to say there are games that are outright offensive. Today Kotaku featured a story on how Soul Calibur IV offers many bikini options in the create-a-fighter category.

Chilling? Please.

That's complete bullshit. If you're not trying to be offensive, then make an effort so that your intentions aren't misconstrued. More often than not, it'll work - if it doesn't, apologize and move the hell on.

I'm not saying don't be offensive - by all means, be offensive. Just have some self-awareness about it. Understand the context in which you put something out there, know your audience, and know how they'll react to what you have to say.

If women stop being able to give birth, they do not cease being women.

If fat people cease eating, they cease being fat.

Being morbidly obese will never be acceptable because there's a choice.

And how, exactly, is a skimpy clothing option automatically offensive?

Women (and men, if you saw the rest of the gallery on Kotaku) being objectified is a whole other issue* than whether said women or men are being treated in same game SOLELY as sexual objects, or as one group being inferior to the other duel to a physical trait, and Soul Calibur, like DOA, has never had that problem.

*Kotaku even addressed that in this article.

That's not exactly true, Bees. Some people are just fat & that's all there is to it. They can eat as little and exercise as much as they want and they'll still be fat. Admitting this is what fat acceptance is all about.

Not all morbidly obese people got that way from overeating.

ETA: beaten again by Z!

The women is Soul Calibur are solely included to be sexual objects.

The body burns fat if it has nothing else to break down. If you stop eating, the literal fat disappears. Being "Big Boned" is different.

A person who reduces their diet to 700 calories a day and an hour of exercise - who fails to lose "body fat" is physical impossibility. No matter how slow the metabolism.

They also cease being alive, or even remotely healthy. And again, this is going off the conceit that all fat people have eating disorders.

Not always, and not as portrayed by the game in question.

I love sweeping generalizations. It makes idiots a lot easier to identify.

Yeah but unless we're talking about someone with a thyroid condition, there is a very easy fix for fatitis. Its called "put down the fucking cookie". If you don't like this kind of shit and it offends you, go on a diet. Do something about it. A black person thats called a nasty name can't decide to be white. The entire premise of racism or bigotry or predjudice is built on the fact that you are taunting or discriminating against somebody based on something that they have no control over. If you like cake too much and have no will power, do something about it.

I'm not advising people stop eating. That's unhealthy. Like being morbidly obese. It's moderation, but it's the obvious example of why it's a choice.

Then it's possible to have zero metabolism?

Uh oh. QUICK, SOMEBODY:

Yeah, because the guys in Soul Calibur are so much more balanced and realistic in their proportio--I'm sorry I can't even finish that sentence...

"Big boned" has always struck me as a weird dodge. If you eat right, exercise regularly, and are still fat, just be okay with being fat. Don't invent another name for it.

Yeah, but who's going to live on a starvation diet and maintain an insane exercise regimen just to meet some sort of societal standard of thin? My point was that some people are just fat and, yes, they could starve themselves and work out more than any reasonable person does, but it's not going to matter.

If I were to make an analogy, it'd be as if someone made a video game forty years ago called "Pollack Princess" and it was about how she was so dumb. Or splattered paint around. If there were videos games then.

But they aren't made to be pure sexual objects (well except for Lizardman).

You misunderstand, I don't discriminate against fat people - I accept people's choices in life - but to compare it to feminism is beyond ridiculous.

Everyone here is entitled to abuse their body however they see fit, without fear of abuse.

EDIT: Big boned is a term for someone with a larger bone structure. You can have a fat person with small bones. They have poor growth-hormone balance. It's not a dodge. I've had a fucking eating disorder, so I know exactly what it's like to be treated like shit for something you "can't help".

I think the trouble with a lot of games is that the unrealistic male characters are still designed to please male gamers. It's not like they sexualize the female characters for men and the male characters for women, they kind of just target both sets at men.

I'm pretty sure I do understand you. I get that you don't have a problem with fat people. But I really do want to stress that being fat does not automatically mean that said fat person is abusing his/her body.

I'm a feminist and, in this case, I'm completely cool with fat acceptance being compared to my beliefs.

They're intertwined, in this case. Fat men are not treated the same way that fat women are. As previously mentioned, the game seems to make a case for the woman being, on one hand, an immobile burden, and, on the other, a disappointing reward for a man's heroic actions. It's pretty much the ultimate example of objectification.

You haven't viewed the 'MS Paint' thread, then?

I am personally looking forward to the mini-game you play on successful completion of a round...I believe it's called '...Just one more 'waffer'-thin mint..."

That's obviously good that you're cool with it, they're both about acceptance and that's a positive thing.

Abusing a body is feeding it more than it needs to operate healthily. To put stress on the heart. Abuse sounds harsh, but that's because you can't see the damage it does.

So on that, I'll respectfully disagree.

In this case, fat and beauty are being tied together. The game assumes that higher the fat percentage the uglier the princess.

That TOTALLY depends how many years they've been sat on the toilet/sofa/bed...actually, NOW, I'm getting an idea for an EVEN BETTER game!!

To me, the problem always was victimization. If you're fat and cool with it, more power to you. I know I couldn't do that, but hey, if it's what makes you confident in yourself and you can endure extra weight on your knees, that's your own business. But stop blaming the rest of the world for your own shortcomings. It's not the transfat in NYC restaurants, it's the fact that you eat there and don't move around to balance it out. Own the fuck up.

I'm not a feminist, but there's a valid point that, in this case, fattism and feminism can be said to be on equal footing. The princess isn't fat by her own choice (or so it sounds), she's fat because other people (let's just say 'The Man', society or simply the media) keep stuffing food down her gullet.

I do have a problem with people holding women captive and fattening them up. In that case, the weight-gain is clearly not a choice.

Wow...2 pages: note to publishers, make Fat Prince next time. Fat white guys = hilarious.

I stand by the fact this publicity is good for the game.