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Outing myself as atheist to the family - Page 3

post #101 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny View Post
People just are flat out ignoring what I'm saying in this thread. What kind of fairy tale scenario are you thinking is going to happen here? They ask me to go to church with them and I just say yes. I sit there, twiddling my thumbs in boredom, and afterwards they ask me what I thought or whatever, and I bald-face lie and tell them it was nice? I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to be a hypocrite because they're my family, just like I wouldn't expect them to be a hypocrite if I dragged them to some atheist event or even a pro-choice event. I'd expect them to say something. Their religious beliefs require them to. But it's okay for me to smile and bear it. Right.

When it comes to this particular subject, I'd rather avoid the conflict... but I'm not going to run from it, either.
What people are saying is that there won't be any conflict unless you're a douchebag about it. Hell, that seems to be what you're saying. So what's the problem?
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post #102 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:13pm
Yeah, I'm not sure what the dilemma is, but hey, it's your family, and every family dynamic is different. None of us are going to "know better" than you here. Which makes the existence of the entire thread questionable, but now you have a place where you can tell us how it turned out.

Or:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny View Post
I'd expect them to say something. Their religious beliefs require them to. But it's okay for me to smile and bear it. Right.
That's the price you pay for having no ethos, you fucking heathen!
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post #103 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:14pm
I'm mostly an agnostic with a crazy neocon sister. Like, doesn't believe in dinosaurs and thinks the bible is literal, kind of sister. Every time I visit her to see my niece and nephew, I go to church with them because it's what the entire family does. At this crazypants church, I usually excuse myself during service and go outside and read a book after it becomes unbearable. My sister doesn't like that I do it, but in the end she tells me what she thinks I should believe, I disagree and then we go eat lunch at an Olive Garden. I give her a hug when I leave and that's that. What's the big deal?
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post #104 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:15pm
Thread Starter 
I'm not going to be a douchebag about it. I'm simply not going to go to church to placate anyone. I'll be polite, reasonable... but I'm not going to bend to this particular point, either.
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post #105 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:18pm
Then you're setting the stage for discomfort, from where I'm at. You know better than any of us how your family will react to that, so maybe it's all good.
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post #106 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:23pm
I was visiting my family for a few days this past weekend. It was good to see them, but on Sunday, my mom and sister wanted to go see "Made of Honor" at the dollar theater. I like Michelle Monaghan as much as the next guy, but fuck if I'm going to see any movie with Patrick Dempsey. He's fucking horrible. I mean, I wasn't going to bend to that particular point. So I told them to fuck off, flew home, and was lauded as a hero by Dempsey-haters all over the internet.
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post #107 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:25pm
See, I'd go with them if for no other reason to point out proof that there is in fact no God.
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post #108 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:26pm
Alan's asking his family to leave him out of their church plans is not anywhere near the level of imposition of them asking him to attend. If he wants to be the bigger man about it, fine, but the issue is not going to dry up and disappear by doing so. Family shouldn't force each other to do things they know are unpleasant or hypocritical for the sake of keeping the peace.

Yeah, my relationship with my mother still hasn't recovered from that day in 2003 when I was subjected to a matinee of Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle.

Edit: I swear I wrote that before the Made of Honor thing was up.
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post #109 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:27pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe LeFors View Post
I was visiting my family for a few days this past weekend. It was good to see them, but on Sunday, my mom and sister wanted to go see "Made of Honor" at the dollar theater. I like Michelle Monaghan as much as the next guy, but fuck if I'm going to see any movie with Patrick Dempsey. He's fucking horrible. I mean, I wasn't going to bend to that particular point. So I told them to fuck off, flew home, and was lauded as a hero by Dempsey-haters all over the internet.
Give me a break. You fuck the 'o' in hyperbole.
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post #110 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:34pm
The number of people here who think it's fine for atheists to just "smile and bear it" when asked to go to church is depressing.

Hey, maybe I'll join my sister at an anti-abortion rally. What's the big deal, after all? It's only personal beliefs and ethics! Where's the harm? It'll be fun seeing how the other half lives!
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post #111 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:36pm
Thread Starter 
On the other extreme end of the hyperbole scale, women who get gangraped by multiple family members should just smile and bear it, since it's the needs of the many that outweigh the needs of the few. We wouldn't want to cause a rift. That would be uncomfortable.
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post #112 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Banks is my hero View Post
See, I'd go with them if for no other reason to point out proof that there is in fact no God.
Huh?
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post #113 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:38pm
Damn straighterbole!
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post #114 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
Hey, maybe I'll join my sister at an anti-abortion rally. What's the big deal, after all? It's only personal beliefs and ethics! Where's the harm? It'll be fun seeing how the other half lives!
By attending church, you aren't endorsing God. In fact, there's really very little tension between atheism (as a broad concept) and attending a church out of consideration for your family. If Nordling's particular breed of atheism means that he's chosen to be evangelical or outspoken about his atheism, that's fine and that's his decision. But, it still leaves your comparison missing the mark.
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post #115 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Ahn Ice View Post
What's the big deal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Ahn Ice View Post
then we go eat lunch at an Olive Garden.
Devin's going to find you and kill you.
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post #116 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny View Post
On the other extreme end of the hyperbole scale, women who get gangraped by multiple family members should just smile and bear it, since it's the needs of the many that outweigh the needs of the few. We wouldn't want to cause a rift. That would be uncomfortable.
EDIT: Never mind, you acknowledge it's hyperbole. Also what LD said.
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post #117 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:41pm
Thread Starter 
How is my brand of atheism evangelical because I refuse to go to church? I don't care if my family wants to go. More power to them, put some cheese on that holy cracker if you want. I'm just not going to go because it's against what I believe in, just as my sister going to an anti-religious event would be against hers.
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post #118 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
The number of people here who think it's fine for atheists to just "smile and bear it" when asked to go to church is depressing.

Hey, maybe I'll join my sister at an anti-abortion rally. What's the big deal, after all? It's only personal beliefs and ethics! Where's the harm? It'll be fun seeing how the other half lives!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny View Post
How is my brand of atheism evangelical because I refuse to go to church? ... I'm just not going to go because it's against what I believe in
Atheism is the opposite of a belief. I don't believe in God, but I believe in making my loved ones' time on earth good if and where I can. DONT ATTACK MY BELIEF SYSTEM!
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post #119 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny View Post
On the other extreme end of the hyperbole scale, women who get gangraped by multiple family members should just smile and bear it, since it's the needs of the many that outweigh the needs of the few. We wouldn't want to cause a rift. That would be uncomfortable.

No no. Pro life says, you got raped cause God wanted you to bear the burden and he made you have that bastard child.
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post #120 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The LD View Post
In fact, there's really very little tension between atheism (as a broad concept) and attending a church out of consideration for your family.
But why is it that the atheist's considerations are never taken into account? Why, as I said earlier in the thread, is it always the believers' considerations that have to be accommadated for harmonious family relations?
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post #121 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:44pm
ETA: redundant now.
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post #122 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
But why is it that the atheist's considerations are never taken into account? Why, as I said earlier in the thread, is it always the believers' considerations that have to be accommadated for harmonious family relations?
I don't think anyone's said a thing about "always," but, in this case, he's going to his sister's house. Home court advantage and all. If she was visiting him, that'd be a different matter.
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post #123 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny View Post
How is my brand of atheism evangelical because I refuse to go to church?
Because you've stated that you're going to tell them about it if the issue of attending church comes up? It's equally atheistic to go to church, and when asked how it was, say "nice." You've stated your reasons (and convincingly) for not wanting to tell a little white lie, but you are a very outspoken atheist.
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post #124 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Ahn Ice View Post
No one's asking you to be forced to go. If you don't want to go, don't go. But attending church, at least the churches I've been to (and I was formerly presbyterian, so honestly, what do we know) were as much about being open to newcomers and non-believers as they were about preaching to the believers. It's about hearing a side of an argument, and mere attendance isn't forcing you to be baptized, or take communion, or getting on your knees and praying to a god you don't believe in. Presence at an anti-abortion rally shows support for that side, church, at least with a lot of sunday services, because you attend doesn't mean that you are necessarily a believer. I think it's a different argument.

I think some people are just kind of confused as to why you'd make such hay out of this issue if you're family's not forcing you to do anything. They have every right to ask you, don't they?
Are we talking equal time here? I know the religious argument backwards and forwards. I was raised Catholic, I've been to many different churches, and "hearing a sife of an argument" is ridiculous. I haven't been to a Buddhist temple yet, so, yeah, I haven't heard "all sides", I guess.

And yet, the second I would present my argument I'm the guy who's persecuting a Christian's personal belief. I can't win. So I'm not going to play. So they can ask, and I'll say no, and I'll say why, and if that's not acceptable... then there's a fight.
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post #125 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissZooey View Post
If she was visiting him, that'd be a different matter.
Understood. But still, if I don't like fish, I don't want to forced to eat it at my sister's house just to keep the peace, either.
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post #126 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:48pm
If this is your vacation.. usually skipping church is implied under Vacation Rule #37.

That rule states that family visiting other family in another state or distance equal to 1 hour or greater is on VACATION, and therefore is on holiday from work and church or similar type activities that take place during the regularly scheduled year.

And yes I made that shit up, but its implied on both sides of my wife and my family. Really, when you are on vacation, you sleep late and spend time with family.

Church will always be there for you.. next week.
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post #127 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
But why is it that the atheist's considerations are never taken into account? Why, as I said earlier in the thread, is it always the believers' considerations that have to be accommadated for harmonious family relations?
Because their beliefs create guidelines for how they are to act and behave. His do not. That creates much greater flexibility on his part. Also, what Zooey said holds true.
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post #128 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The LD View Post
Because you've stated that you're going to tell them about it if the issue of attending church comes up? It's equally atheistic to go to church, and when asked how it was, say "nice." You've stated your reasons (and convincingly) for not wanting to tell a little white lie, but you are a very outspoken atheist.
Well, I'm not going to be outspoken if it never comes up. Only if I'm asked.
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post #129 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
Understood. But still, if I don't like fish, I don't want to forced to eat it at my sister's house just to keep the peace, either.
yeah, but here, you can eat whatever you like. You just have to sit at the table while THEY eat fish.
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post #130 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The LD View Post
Because their beliefs create guidelines for how they are to act and behave. His do not.
WTF?
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post #131 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:51pm
Thread Starter 
I have no guidelines, Jacob. But what I do have is a need to kill... RISING...
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post #132 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:52pm
Exactly, he's not one of those guys out there who pisses and moans everytime there's a cross somewhere. He's just a guy who feels uncomfortable going to church and if someone is uncomfortable in a situation. They try and either get out or avoid the situation entirely. They don't sit there and take it for the sake of displeasing others.

Christ, I never knew trying to deal with being an atheist to one's family is practically analogus to being gay.
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post #133 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny View Post
Well, I'm not going to be outspoken if it never comes up. Only if I'm asked.
So you started this thread to talk about how "I'm going to take a BIG PRINCIPLED STAND ... you know, unless it doesn't come up, because it might not. Or it probably won't. I mean, I'M not going to bring it up. But if it does, you know (in that unlikely event), I'm SO taking a BIG PRINCIPLED STAND.
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post #134 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The LD View Post
yeah, but here, you can eat whatever you like. You just have to sit at the table while THEY eat fish.

Fine. I'll go to my sister's church to make her happy (why it makes her happy I'll never know), and then she has to come to a symposium on evolution and rational thought to make me happy (also for some unknown reason).
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post #135 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdHocken View Post
Christ, I never knew trying to deal with being an atheist to one's family is practically analogus to being gay.
I guess it depends on the family and how centered they are around a church atmosphere.

The only reason we'd go to church on vacation time was because of a luncheon or some other church affair after service.
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post #136 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:54pm
My cousin just came out of the closet to the family at age 30. His parents are quite upset. I wonder, to those advocating the keep-the-peace method, do you think he should've kept it to himself? He'd hidden it for 15 years without ruining anybody's Christmas, so was it selfish of him to rub their noses in it?

I imagine everyone will say "that's totally different", but what I want to know is why it's different. Because it involves sex? Is there a line between things you should be comfortable hiding your feelings on for the sake of courtesy and those that no one should ask you to?

Edit: Dammit, I swear I wrote this before Hocken made his gay analogy ("gay anal..." heeheehee). Stop moving so fast, thread!
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post #137 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:54pm
What's wrong with that exactly? Unless him being atheist has some relevance to a situation, it doesn't have anything to do with anything.
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post #138 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
But why is it that the atheist's considerations are never taken into account? Why, as I said earlier in the thread, is it always the believers' considerations that have to be accommadated for harmonious family relations?
It's not a court case. He wanted to "avoid confrontation". Why would an atheist be as sensitive about his beliefs as a devout Christian?
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post #139 of 564
7/28/08 at 3:58pm
Now, if my sister's church had an open bar, we could talk. "Jesus, huh? Hmm, lemme think about it. Could I get another olive here?"
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post #140 of 564
7/28/08 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
My cousin just came out of the closet to the family at age 30. His parents are quite upset. I wonder, to those advocating the keep-the-peace method, do you think he should've kept it to himself? He'd hidden it for 15 years without ruining anybody's Christmas, so was it selfish of him to rub their noses in it?
I submit that one's sexuality defines them much more than a god they don't believe in. As an atheist, to me the "devout atheist" stuff feels like posturing.
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post #141 of 564
7/28/08 at 4:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
It's not a court case. He wanted to "avoid confrontation". Why would an atheist be as sensitive about his beliefs as a devout Christian?
A "devout Christian" shouldn't be anymore sensitive about his/her beliefs than the athiest. If your faith is so shaky that being confronted with questions or criticisms of that faith unnerves you, you need to spend less time worrying about other people and their conduct and more time examining yourself.
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post #142 of 564
7/28/08 at 4:04pm
Maybe. I'm just not that emotionally invested in things I don't believe in. Since I'm 100% certain that I give less of a fuck about there being no God than the Christian does about there being a god, I just go the polite route. "Do unto others" and all that. That Christianity shit has some good principles in there.
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post #143 of 564
7/28/08 at 4:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
I submit that one's sexuality defines them much more than a god they don't believe in. As an atheist, to me the "devout atheist" stuff feels like posturing.
Exactly, the only people who fall under "devout atheist" which really sounds like an oxymoron are the ones who piss and moan at anything with a cross or even a semblence of a religious conotation to pretty much anything.

Devout atheism makes about much sense as militant secularism.
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post #144 of 564
7/28/08 at 4:07pm
Thread Starter 
I don't piss and moan about religion in general. I just don't want it in schools and I don't want to be asked to go to church. That's really not too much to ask, even from family.
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post #145 of 564
7/28/08 at 4:12pm
I mean, they do have a right to ask you. You have a right to say no. They're your family, they have the right to ask you to do all kinds of shit you don't want to do or believe in, right? That's what family's for!
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post #146 of 564
7/28/08 at 4:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdHocken View Post
Devout atheism makes about much sense as militant secularism.
[snark] Yeah, it's not like devout religious types ever try to force their beliefs on anyone. [/snark]
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post #147 of 564
7/28/08 at 4:15pm
In all seriousness, I would just suggest that you look to the situation for context. Is it possible that your sister would want to take you and her mom to church with her because she wants to "show you off" or introduce you to friends? Would it simply make her happy if you attended? Would it really be that big of a sacrifice for you to take an hour out of your day to participate (even idly) in something that's important to her?

Think about this stuff first. Because if the answer to any of those questions is "yes," then you'll come out of this thing looking like sort of an asshole, regardless of your beliefs or rationale.
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post #148 of 564
7/28/08 at 4:18pm
Thread Starter 
So you'd not only have me be a hypocrite to family but a bunch of strangers too. Makes sense. Still, think of the comedy potential. Maybe I will go after all.
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post #149 of 564
7/28/08 at 4:18pm
Echoed. Life is full of compromises, Rorschach. I still don't see the hypocrite angle. You're acting like a Ditko character.
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post #150 of 564
7/28/08 at 4:19pm
Maybe I'm stretching the discussion here, but if you feel there is going to be friction if the atheist thing comes, then it's possible there's more than just a problem with religious beliefs with your family.
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