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Dinosaurs & The Bible

post #1 of 146
Thread Starter 
My almost 7 year old son is entering second grade, in public school. He spent last year in a Christian School. We recently watched Jurassic Park. He loved it. Of course, he's all about the dinosaurs now.

My wife and I do not regularly attend church. She likes to think she is religious, however I am completely not. I do believe there is a place for religion in our society, but I dont believe in it, other than some of the philosophical issues that are presented. I don't need all the fantasy mumbo-jumbo, but realize that others do.

My son is young enough that after a year of "God created everything" he is starting to ask relevant questions about things. He will recite many of the sayings that they teach, which I see as brainwashing-style methods of introducing religion and a respect for God that you would need to get kids off on the correct religious steps.

When he asks me questions that require a scientific answer, I tell him in general senses the answers that I have, and just dont mention about how God fits into the whole issue. I figure that as time goes on, he will learn enough to make up his own mind about religion, about faith vs. reason.

Sooooo, how do people who believe in the Bible, and that God created everything, explain to their kids the dinosaurs? Do you disregard the Bible, and teach him what science says about them, about how long ago they were, and that they are not in the Bible?

Basically, how do you teach your child about something that has no relationship to religion or scripture?
post #2 of 146
Man I am completely out of my element here.
post #3 of 146
There's some theory I once subscribed to that dinosaurs occured at some point during the day where the animals were created, that when you're looking from God's point of view a day could mean a millenia in what humans comprehend. But I don't know how well-spread that theory is.
post #4 of 146
All kidding aside, I'd like to hear the various responses to this. Considering that the existence of dinosaurs pretty much negates most of the very foundation of the Bible, I'd like to see what the very religious have to say.
post #5 of 146
Was your son taught that the bible was literally true? It's nuanced but the Catholic Church, for example, teaches that God's creation of man does not preclude evolution or natural selection. That God created the soul in his own image but not the body. That God is responsible for life, the universe and everything but that the mechanism he chose to develop it was evolution does not contradict Catholic belief.

I don't know what denomination your son's school was, but you can probably steal and modify that and have it work for you.

I'm not at all religious and I'm not a parent so that probably didn't help much. If you really want to know how the deeply religious would handle that, I recommend www.answersingenesis.com or www.conservapedia.com or creationwiki

Bring Tylenol.
post #6 of 146
Dinosaurs were created by the guy who also created God.
post #7 of 146
I actually ended up getting kicked out of Sunday school as a kid because I wouldn't let this subject drop. On top of that I also relentlessly kept pointing out that Cain, son of the only to people on the planet, is punished for murdering his brother, by being banished to a...city...with other...people ....wait...what? Should there be a sign that now reads "Earth: Population 3?"

By the time I started an argument over what a phoenix was (they kept saying it was a Christian symbol representing rebirth after death; my nine-year-old mind knew that it was really Jean Grey after being possessed by an alien entity and would not be moved on the matter) they had a meeting with my mom and politely asked if I could possibly just come to service, because I was giving "the other kids bad ideas about questioning the Bible." We left the church shortly thereafter and I haven't been in one since, other than for funerals and weddings.
post #8 of 146
I asked a priest at my college about this same thing back in April. I didn't get a straight answer. Hell, I didn't even really get an answer.

Now how long before someone posts that Jesus riding a velociraptor picture?
post #9 of 146
I would love to have a conversation about this stuff with someone who could actually inform me of the church's official stance. I'm wouldn't even be confrontational, I just really want to know what they think. I mean there has to be an official doctrine about those things, doesn't it? The catholic church at least has scientific committees I think.
post #10 of 146
I would guess that there are different doctrines for a different denominations. The Catholic Church's stance which I paraphrased came out during Pope Pius XII' papacy. Some of Pope Benedict's aides have implied that this is not his view on the matter but there has not yet been an official position.

I am so not up to date one this. Check out this wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evoluti...atholic_Church
post #11 of 146
When I'm elected Pope, I'll issue a Papal Decree that states that anybody that uses the word "Jesus" except in a Catholic Mass is going straight to Hell.

AND 1.1 BILLION PEOPLE WILL INSTANTLY BELIEVE ME HA HA HA HAA!!
post #12 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent View Post
I asked a priest at my college about this same thing back in April. I didn't get a straight answer. Hell, I didn't even really get an answer.

Now how long before someone posts that Jesus riding a velociraptor picture?


I can't answer that.
post #13 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by myk View Post
Was your son taught that the bible was literally true? It's nuanced but the Catholic Church, for example, teaches that God's creation of man does not preclude evolution or natural selection. That God created the soul in his own image but not the body. That God is responsible for life, the universe and everything but that the mechanism he chose to develop it was evolution does not contradict Catholic belief.
What about the original sin then? Or doesn't it play such a big part in church doctrine now? Or what about the soul? If we developed from other organisms did the soul enter our bodies at some arbitrary point? Or does every organism have a soul?

I'm not asking you personally. These are just some of the questions I've had since I was young.
post #14 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by myk View Post
That God is responsible for life, the universe and everything
No, that was Douglas Adams.

I'm just curious, and no snark or derision intended here -- if you say you're "completely not" religious, and it sounds like your wife isn't incredibly dedicated either ("likes to think she's religious" doesn't sound like a strong endorsement), what was your kid doing in Catholic school in the first place?
post #15 of 146
I once got in trouble at sunday school when I was in middle school for asking if Jesus died for our sins, and there are aliens, did he die for their sins or do they have their own alien jesus? (since aliens are never mentioned in the Bible). They threw me out of class that day for being a smart ass, the sad thing is, I was 100% sincere in that question because I believed in aliens back then. I STILL DOOOOOOOOO.
post #16 of 146
I have talked to a few very religious about dinosaurs, and the thing I have heard more often than not is that the devil planted dinosaurs in the earth to test man's faith in the lord. This has been repeated to me several times. It is scary.
post #17 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
I'm just curious, and no snark or derision intended here -- if you say you're "completely not" religious, and it sounds like your wife isn't incredibly dedicated either ("likes to think she's religious" doesn't sound like a strong endorsement), what was your kid doing in Catholic school in the first place?
Richard, good question.

We had a situation that made us pull him unexpectedly out of his kindergarten school, and this Christian, not Catholic (oh, hell no), school was our best option (due to location).

My wife, though I said she wasn't completely religious, has had troubles earlier in her life and going to church helped her out. She believes in the good the church can do, and she says she believes in God, but we rarely ever go to church. Maybe twice in the last 2 years.

And guess what the motivating factor to pull him out of this school was? Money. They were always asking for us to help fund this and that, pay for stuff that we weren't expecting, fees for everything, etc. Became waaay too expensive, especially when you have free school around the corner, which we are already paying for with our taxes.
post #18 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
No, that was Douglas Adams.

I'm just curious, and no snark or derision intended here -- if you say you're "completely not" religious, and it sounds like your wife isn't incredibly dedicated either ("likes to think she's religious" doesn't sound like a strong endorsement), what was your kid doing in Catholic school in the first place?
The public schools may be inferior to the private schools in his area. I know of a few non-religious people who send their kids to private Catholic schools for the high quality of the education, and who then try to undo the religious propaganda while the kid is home. I believe Brad Wardell, president of Stardock (publisher of the Galactic Civilizations game series) does this.
post #19 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyG View Post
I have talked to a few very religious about dinosaurs, and the thing I have heard more often than not is that the devil planted dinosaurs in the earth to test man's faith in the lord. This has been repeated to me several times. It is scary.
That's just awesome. You've seriously improved my morning, sir.
post #20 of 146
Yeah, when I was taught religion in Catholic school, we were always taught about putting things in historical context, finding the religious truths in allegorical text. The official stance of the Catholic Church is not to take the bible as literal historic record (especially the Old Testament). It always seemed obvious to me, even back when I believed in God.
post #21 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clark View Post
I actually ended up getting kicked out of Sunday school as a kid because I wouldn't let this subject drop.
Holy shit, I'm not the only one. My dad put me in Sunday School because he went to a Catholic school all through out his childhood and since my mother was anti religion he thought it would do me some good. All I learned was that it was a crock of shit that people couldn't answer my questions about subjects like that. I also got in trouble for asking about Jesus being a zombie. It just made sense to me as a kid. The whole experience pretty much turned me off of religion.
post #22 of 146
Catholic schools aren't fire and brimstone. They're really open to ideas and different views. They're not going to tolerate you coming in with a pentagram carved into your face, but they embrace science and history. I was surprised how in my Theology classes how many popes were painted as jerks, and some as outright evil by the priest that taught the class.
post #23 of 146
Patrick beat me to it, the position of the Catholic Church is pretty clear on this. Even St. Augustine hinted at a non literal interpretation of the creation story.

I believe most non-evangelical protestant Churches are on the same boat in this issue.
post #24 of 146
The word "evangelical" can get you in to trouble there. Technically, evangelical refers to any church that attempts to actively recruit new members. Which means most Christian denominations are evangelical, including Catholicism.

The word you're looking for is "fundamentalist."
post #25 of 146
The problem is that, at least in my experience, Sunday Schools and "youth education" programs often leave out that the old testament should be treated as non-literal. That doesn't come in until later.

It could stem from a perception that kids just aren't equipped to deal with complex symbolism, so they're just being fed this stuff as if it were fact, but I think it can still create a really confusing cognitive dissonance for kids.
post #26 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minsky View Post
The problem is that, at least in my experience, Sunday Schools and "youth education" programs often leave out that the old testament should be treated as non-literal. That doesn't come in until later.
Right. That's my issue.

Is my son going to be that kid who thinks that everything was created out of whatever/thin air/God's hand while the school (and myself) teaches him the scientific perspective? Or is he in for a rude awakening? When can I start to tell him, "Son, everything you learned in 1st grade is a based on something even the church doesn't literally believe."
post #27 of 146
Why don't you take your son aside and explain the church's stance? That way, you're not presenting it as what YOU believe, but you're still giving him important critical thinking skills.
post #28 of 146
Thread Starter 
Basically, I think that's what I am doing. I'm showing him the other side of things, without bringing the Lord into it. 7 years old is old enough to ask questions, and I am going to allow him the chance to figure it out for himself; to see if he can come to those conclusions himself.

But see, this isn't really about my son. I am fine with how he is handling things, and I have no doubt that since we do not have religion as an important part of our life, that he will be fine (in my eyes, of course). I think what I really wonder, is how do religious folks treat these scientific principles and their children whom they want to believe in God? What happens when the Discovery channel is showing a scientist who studies geology, and is talking about how the earth is millions of years old? Do religious parents keep this kind of stuff away from their kids, in order to avoid the questions that would surely come?
post #29 of 146
Dude, you really didn't check out those links I sent you. It's fun for the whole family.
post #30 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Allen View Post
I think what I really wonder, is how do religious folks treat these scientific principles and their children whom they want to believe in God? What happens when the Discovery channel is showing a scientist who studies geology, and is talking about how the earth is millions of years old? Do religious parents keep this kind of stuff away from their kids, in order to avoid the questions that would surely come?
Only the crazies. Going through Catechism I met plenty of kid's parents that were very, very hardcore fundamentalist. Kids that had parents keep them out of science classes, or any ancient history courses. Kids who could only read the Bible, and had no other books in their homes, including encyclopedias, because ti could distort the word of the lord.

If your concern (or any other parent) lies in, is your kid going to get mixed in with these types of parents, I think you need to really have a talk with the school and find out how "liberal" they are in their views. Definitely make sure they don't have the psycho "Catholic/Christian History" courses that say the earth began just a couple hundred years before Jesus was born, and warps history to fit into a literal interpretation of the Bible.

My parents put my sister into a Catholic school for Jr. High and that is how they taught. My parents, being non-psychos and fairly non-religious, flipped an absolute bitch and the school basically said if you want your daughter to be a godless heathen, then continue your bitching and we'll boot her out.
post #31 of 146
Regarding the teaching of dinosaurs and history in relation to the Bible...

You can't explain these things, because they make no sense. It's that simple. You can't have a conversation with a religious person about these things and their stance on them, because it will lead you to a brick wall immediately. Bash yourself against it accordingly.

Every conversation I have with one of the devout Christians I know goes nowhere. Politics, philosophy, geology...it's useless. Give up.
post #32 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyG View Post
My parents put my sister into a Catholic school for Jr. High and that is how they taught. My parents, being non-psychos and fairly non-religious, flipped an absolute bitch and the school basically said if you want your daughter to be a godless heathen, then continue your bitching and we'll boot her out.
That has to be an anomaly. I grew up in Texas, and went to Catholic school all 12 years and kindergarten, and I guarantee you we had science classes, and classes about evolution, and even Theology classes where we discussed which Popes were bugfuck nuts.

Maybe they taught too well, because I'm atheist now.
post #33 of 146
Raptor Jesus died for our sins.


Someone had to do it. This thread was going nowhere.
post #34 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny View Post
That has to be an anomaly. I grew up in Texas, and went to Catholic school all 12 years and kindergarten, and I guarantee you we had science classes, and classes about evolution, and even Theology classes where we discussed which Popes were bugfuck nuts.

Maybe they taught too well, because I'm atheist now.
It's definitely not the norm. My sister was really bad (got caught) so my parents tossed her in the first school they found that was affordable, and seemed to have nice facilities. It's off Briar Forest, not far from Highway 6 if I remember right.

There is another place close to my dad's house that has now expanded from just high school to cover all 12 grades, plus offer pre-school and day care services. A friend got suspended there for having a Transformers binder.
post #35 of 146
My wife and her little brother both went to Catholic school and they describe it more like Nordling does. I was raised Methodist and have a few Lutheran family members and I must say Catholics are the only Christians I have seen openly say the bible is not a literal history when it comes to the old testament.
post #36 of 146
There are big monsters in the bible. Leviathan, for instance. There are dragons too. The retarded say that these are dinosaurs.
post #37 of 146
I hear the jury is still out on dinosaurs.
post #38 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
There are big monsters in the bible. Leviathan, for instance. There are dragons too. The retarded say that these are dinosaurs.
So then what's the official Church stance on dragons?
post #39 of 146
They're against 'em.
post #40 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny View Post
They're against 'em.
post #41 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
There are big monsters in the bible. Leviathan, for instance. There are dragons too. The retarded say that these are dinosaurs.
Just for clarification those weren't what I was referring to.

I had forgotten Leviathan was in the Bible. Makes you wonder that if they can accept fairly mystic sounding creatures in the Good Book than they should be able to accept big lizard-esque creatures. But then again, the logic fits the usual pattern.
post #42 of 146
Actually, one of the tentpoles of YEC is that every culture on the planet has developed the dragon in some form or another in their mythology. They think the reason for that is that man coexisted with dinosaurs.

Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger.

(edit: Hey that's almost exactly, but not quite, what Devin said and I somehow ignored.)
post #43 of 146
There's also a theory that fear of dragons is a genetic memory from when our early ancestors actually had to worry about being gobbled up by enormous reptiles. It's a neat theory, but in all likelihood myths of dragons grew from the discovery of dinosaur fossils.
post #44 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
There are big monsters in the bible. Leviathan, for instance. There are dragons too. The retarded say that these are dinosaurs.
Those are demons, and the books they are in are the most allegoric books in the bible. Even the fundies call those books apocalyptic books.


As in most things there are two sides to every coin. In Christianity There is a big nasty debate call the errantists and innerantists debate. It is not pretty, it quite mean in fact.
http://www.christiandiscussionforums...41819#poststop

Quote:
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


The only foundation is Jesus Christ. If you say that the bible is a foundation you are an idolater. My foundation is Jesus Christ.
The only two warning I have gotten on CARM come from this subject. I simple call innerantists idolaters, who can have no understanding of the bible or what it is trying to teach. I just can't understand how anyone can be an innerantist, when the book that these people says is innerant say that Jesus only spoke in parables.

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
post #45 of 146
How, exactly, does that whole "Jesus Christ is the only foundation - Boo Bible" thing work if the Bible is what provides Christianity with the only generally accepted source detailing the life and words of Jesus?
post #46 of 146
Everyone who talks to God knows he's just a little embarrassed about the whole dinosaur thing. It was an experiment that failed and he wishes we'd all move on. And yes, God is a man, and his penis is slightly more average than you'd think.
post #47 of 146
First of all, I thought this was going to be a Bill Hicks tribute thread and was sorely disappointed. [Note: check out that particular track, about creationist thinking dinosaurs are there to test "our"[sic] faith]

Second, Jakespeare's idea about what constitutes a day from god's point of view is actually rather clever and interesting. I don't know if its widespread but I don't imagine what it wouldn't be.

And yeah, I remember some mini-essay by Borges, discussing/fooling-around with some theory that when the earth was created, it was created sort of in media res... the idea, if I recall was that for anything to be consistent in that earth (say, for a tree to have the rings it has inside), then it needed to have a "built-in" past... So, technically, under the argument, dinosaurs "never" existed but they are there because they were needed for the rest of the earth (via evolution) to make sense. [See also: last thursdayism (if you want to mock this)]. However, on a purely conceptual level, its at least interesting enough to be discussed, and I imagine it could provide a "logical" (and completely unfalsifiable) loophole for those that prefer to keep a bit of God in their cosmology.

But seriously though, there should be a Bill Hicks reference here.
post #48 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Allen View Post
Basically, I think that's what I am doing. I'm showing him the other side of things, without bringing the Lord into it. 7 years old is old enough to ask questions, and I am going to allow him the chance to figure it out for himself; to see if he can come to those conclusions himself.

But see, this isn't really about my son. I am fine with how he is handling things, and I have no doubt that since we do not have religion as an important part of our life, that he will be fine (in my eyes, of course). I think what I really wonder, is how do religious folks treat these scientific principles and their children whom they want to believe in God? What happens when the Discovery channel is showing a scientist who studies geology, and is talking about how the earth is millions of years old? Do religious parents keep this kind of stuff away from their kids, in order to avoid the questions that would surely come?

I can help answer this question. I consider myself to be a strong believer in God. I'm not a member of any specific denomination of any organized religion mainly because they do more harm than good. That said, I can separate my belief in God from a support of organized religion.

I think a really good way to teach your child is to separate from God and the Bible. As dreary louse said already... it's difficult to coincide the beliefs and tenants of the Bible along with many proven facts of science and the universe. You can, like I have, use God as a way to show your child what creation truly is.

As for your question in the second paragraph, I think of the same answer. When you narrow the overall existence of God to only a Christian God or a Jewish God, you have to follow the dogmatic restrictions of that God. However, if you want to believe in a universal God, which I do... it makes things a lot easier to swallow. For example, evolution doesn't violate my beliefs in God and neither does the different sciences that challenge the faiths of others who wish to ignore it.

Good luck.
post #49 of 146
My interpretation of this thread thus far:

"Hey, you wacky Christians, how do you reconcile your belief in God with, y'know, dinosaurs?"

"No problem. In fact, the world's largest Christian denomination explicitly states that God's creation of man does not preclude evolution or natural selection. That God created the soul in his own image but not the body. That God is responsible for life, the universe and everything but that the mechanism he chose to develop it was evolution does not contradict Catholic belief."

"Hey, you wacky Christians, how do you reconcile your belief in God with, y'know, dinosaurs?"
post #50 of 146
As I said previously, if evolution is the mechanism god chose when did humans acquire their souls? Did the Australopithecus have a soul? Did Homo Erectus? Did god in some arbitrary point in human evolution decreed that from now on humans were no longer animals? Or does the church believe that every living thing from protozoa and upwards has a soul?

Again I'm not trying to be confrontational. I really want to know.
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