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Russia invades Georgia

post #1 of 135
8/8/08 at 12:54pm
Thread Starter 
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...tia/index.html
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post #2 of 135
8/8/08 at 3:22pm
This is either going to end very soon via international mediation or become a chaotic bloodbath. This isn't going to be some guerrilla war, this is straight-up conventional warfare, Georgia has a high-tech, modern military and can hit back pretty damn hard.
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post #3 of 135
8/8/08 at 3:26pm
Supposedly Georgia doesn't have nuclear/chemical weapons.
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post #4 of 135
8/8/08 at 4:00pm
Hmmm, Georgia was hoping to join NATO in '09. What a coincidence that Russia decides to intervene in '08.
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post #5 of 135
8/8/08 at 4:31pm
It's been coming for a long time. The assassination attempts on Eduard Shevardnadze and Mikheil Saakashvili, the role of Aslan Abashidze, the Sandro Girgvliani Murder Case and so forth, but the real catalyst here is Dmitri Sanakoev, and the unrecognized land of no crossroads.
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post #6 of 135
8/8/08 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord View Post
Supposedly Georgia doesn't have nuclear/chemical weapons.
Sorry, I didn't mean ballistics or WMDs so much as conventional forces.
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post #7 of 135
8/8/08 at 8:51pm
And the Olympics just got more interesting!
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post #8 of 135
8/8/08 at 10:40pm
This is huge news, and yet the only coverage I can find is on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7FMCn0qi7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4AD6mOZm9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTQVVkudisU
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post #9 of 135
8/8/08 at 10:44pm
Is Nick ok?
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post #10 of 135
8/8/08 at 10:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
Is Nick ok?
Zing!
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post #11 of 135
8/9/08 at 12:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
Is Nick ok?
Bah, those Ruskies know better than to invade this Georgia. Besides, we've got one helluva kudzu perimeter setup as is. That thing is a bitch to get through, let me tell you.
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post #12 of 135
8/9/08 at 11:34am
1500 reported dead as war escalates.

Hey, but I hear John Edwards fucked somebody other than his wife.
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post #13 of 135
8/10/08 at 6:55am
An update on the story thats leadin BBC World News while US media jerks off over Edwards and my own fucking media pretends nothings going on but the Olympics...

Quote:
Georgia withdraws as Russia builds firepower

An injured Georgian woman calls for help in the town of Gori, 80 kilometres west of Tbilisi, after a Russian warplane bombed an apartment block yesterday. Photo: Reuters

Georgia withdrew from the separatist region of South Ossetia today after new clashes with Russian forces as Moscow amassed its military firepower to overwhelm its neighbour.

"We have left practically all of South Ossetia as an expression of goodwill and our willingness to stop military confrontation," Georgian National Security Council Secretary Alexander Lomaia told AFP.

Officials in South Ossetia, the separatist region at the heart of the fighting, said artillery fire was exchanged overnight and Georgia claimed Russian jets had bombed a military airfield near the Georgian capital Tbilisi.

Georgia also said Russia had brought 10,000 extra troops into South Ossetia and was assembling armoured vehicles close to the border. Reports said Russia was imposing a naval blockade after moving warships into range.

Mr Lomaia said Georgia had asked the United States to act as a mediator with Russia in the conflict, which broke out in the middle of last week and has left 2,000 dead according to Russian figures.

"We have asked United States Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to mediate with the Russians, to transmit them our message," said Mr Lomaia, after announcing the withdrawal.

US President George Bush has led a chorus of international calls to end the hostilities which observers fear might spread to other parts of the volatile Caucasus region.

Russia backs the separatist government in South Ossetia and sent in tanks and troops on Friday in response to pro-Western Georgia's military offensive to take back the province which broke away in the early 1990s after a separatist war.

In a new move demonstrating Moscow's giant military advantage, Russian warships were reported by Interfax news agency to be setting up a sea blockade to prevent arms and other military supplies from reaching Georgia.

"This is definitely necessary for preventing arms shipments to Georgia by sea," Interfax quoted a naval source as saying. "A sea blockade of Georgia will also help avert an escalation of military activity in Abkhazia."

Overnight, Russian and Georgian forces exchanged artillery fire in the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian authorities said in a statement. A South Ossetian spokeswoman said the overnight shelling killed 20 and wounded 150 people.

Russia also continued bombing raids on Georgian territory outside South Ossetia, hitting a runway of a military airfield near Tbilisi international airport early today, according to Mr Lomaia.

Yesterday Russian aircraft had staged raids on the Georgian port of Poti and the city of Gori, where inhabitants said scores of people were killed.

Mr Lomaia said Russia had concentrated a large number of armoured vehicles near the border with Georgia at a crossing not linked to South Ossetia.

Georgia's army of less than 25,000 men is confronting a Russian force which can count on more than one million troops - and experts say the conflict cannot last.

Diplomatic efforts to end the crisis were set to intensify, with a joint European-US mission heading for Georgia to try to help broker a ceasefire with Russia.

But a meeting of the UN Security Council yesterday failed to agree on a call for an immediate ceasefire.

France, which holds the EU presidency, announced that it would organise a meeting of European foreign ministers early next week and an emergency European Union (EU) summit could be held.

The EU "strongly states its commitment to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Georgia and its internationally recognised borders and urges Russia to respect them," said a statement released by France.

The EU "underscores that the military actions (against Georgia) could affect EU-Russian relations," it added.

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner will visit the region today to present settlement proposals, France said.

Mr Bush cut into his engagements during a visit to Beijing to call for an end to Russian bombing.

"We have urged an immediate halt to the violence and a stand-down by all troops," he told reporters. "We call for an end to the Russian bombings."

As the fighting continued, the leaders of Russia and Georgia stepped up their war of words.

"What they are doing is nothing to do with conflict, it is about annihilation of a democracy on their borders," Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said in an interview with the BBC yesterday.

Mr Saakashvili declared a "state of war" in his country yesterday but also offered a ceasefire to Russia.

Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev said his country had launched its operation to "force the Georgian side into peace." He later said he would order an investigation into accusations by South Ossetian refugees of Georgian acts of genocide.

The conflict has also spread to Abkhazia, another breakaway region of Georgia, where the separatist government said its forces had launched attacks on Georgian troops. Georgia accused Russia of staging the attacks in the Kodori Gorge region, the only part of Abkhazia controlled by Georgia.

The conflict with Russia had claimed 150 Georgian lives, Georgian Foreign Minister Eka Tkeshelashvili said yesterday.

Russian officials have said at least 2000 people have been killed in South Ossetia.

South Ossetia broke from Georgia in the early 1990s. It has a population of 70,000, many of whom have been granted Russia passports.

Earlier, Russia's ambassador to the UN likened Georgia's deadly onslaught on South Ossetia to "genocide".

Pointing to the enclave's small population - estimated at 70,000 - Vitaly Churkin said he told the Security Council: "Two thousand killed, is it enough for you? Thirty thousand refugees, is that it enough for you?"

"How many people have to be killed for genocide? It's genocide to the South Ossetians," he told reporters after attending closed-door Security Council consultations that again failed to produce agreement on a call for a ceasefire in the bitter fighting between Russia and Georgia.

Mr Churkin said Russia viewed the Georgian offensive as "something that has elements of genocide and war crimes situation."

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin earlier called for an investigation into alleged acts of genocide by Georgian forces during their offensive against the breakaway province of South Ossetia.

Incidents described by refugees "lie beyond the framework of understanding of military actions", Putin told President Dmitry Medvedev in comments broadcast on Russian television.

"In my opinion they are already elements of some kind of genocide of the Ossetian people. I think it would be correct if you instruct the military prosecutor to document all such incidents," he said.

Mr Putin was briefing Mr Medvedev on a visit to South Ossetian refugees in the Russian province of North Ossetia after flying back to Moscow early today, Russian news agencies reported.

Yesterday, Mr Saakashvili denounced as "a lie" Russian claims of more than 1,000 civilian deaths in South Ossetia's main city, saying "practically no civilians" were killed.

The claims are an "egregious lie. There were practically no civilians dead. But Tskhinvali is ruined as a result of Russian bombardments," he said during a televised meeting of his national security council.

He accused Moscow of carrying out a "truly Soviet-style disinformation campaign."


AFP

http://www.theage.com.au/world/georg...2.html?page=-1
Fucking Putin man. I love the way Russia slowly turning back into an aggressive dictatorship has become this gigantic elephant in the room of international relations.
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post #14 of 135
8/10/08 at 9:38am
Another good piece offering some pretty persuasive reasoning as to why the west should be watching this conflict very, very closely...

Quote:

A Georgian man cries as he holds the body of his relative after a Russian bombardment in Gori
Analysis: why the Russia-Georgia conflict matters to the West

It would be a serious mistake for the international community to regard the dramatic escalation of violence in Georgia as just another flare-up in the Caucasus.

The names of the flashpoints may be unfamiliar, the territory remote and the dispute parochial, but the battle under way will have important repercussions beyond the region.

The outcome of the struggle will determine the course of Russia’s relations with its neighbours, will shape Dmitri Medvedev’s presidency, could alter the relationship between the Kremlin and the West and crucially could decide the fate of Caspian basin energy supplies.

Quite what triggered the Georgian offensive, on the day that the world was supposed to gather in peace for the start of the Beijing Olympics, is not yet clear.

It was known that a serious confrontation had been building up. British Intelligence predicted this year that a war in the Caucasus was probable. The focus was Georgia, the West’s main ally in the region and the only export route for Caspian oil and gas outside Kremlin control.

Part of the responsibility must lie with President Saakashvili. The US-educated Geogian leader has rightly been praised for turning around his country’s dire economy, transforming the Soviet-style army into a modern Western force and standing up to the Kremlin.

Georgia has been saddled for the best part of two decades with breakaway regions in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, both supported by Russia as part of the Kremlin’s strategy to weaken Tbilisi’s authority. Nevertheless, seeking to reintegrate the separatist provinces by force is a risky, some would say reckless, move that threatens to trigger an all-out war between Russia and Georgia.

On paper the small Georgian military is no match for the might of Russia. But Mr Saakashvili has calculated that his friends in the West, notably America and Britain, will protect him. Russia must also shoulder responsibility for the crisis. Under President Putin, the Kremlin increased its support for Georgia’s breakaway regions, offering their inhabitants Russian citizenship and arming separatist forces while pretending to be honest broker.

The Kremlin tried to break Georgia’s resolve by deporting its citizens from Russia, imposing blockades and banning the import of Georgian goods. It had been hoped that the election this year of President Medvedev might lead to an easing of tensions between the two neighbours. It seems more likely that, thanks to Mr Putin’s continued influence as Prime Minister and the role played by hardliners in the military, Mr Medvedev may instead find himself embroiled in war.

The West, in particular America, has stoked the regional fire. At the Nato summit in Bucharest this year it pressed for Georgia and Ukraine’s membership of the alliance. The move was blocked by the Europeans but Nato did give a commitment to offer the two countries membership later. That move was seen in Moscow as a challenge to its dominance in what it calls the “near abroad”, the former Soviet republics.

Since then Russia has made clear in word and deed that it will do anything to prevent Nato’s expansion on its western and southern flanks.

America and Britain are closely involved in providing military assistance to the Georgians in the form of arms and training. The support is aimed at encouraging the rise of Georgia as an independent, sovereign state.

But the help is also partly a means of protecting the oil pipeline across Georgia that carries crude from the Caspian to the Black Sea, the only export route that bypasses Russia’s stranglehold on energy exports from the region.

If Georgia succeeds in reimposing its sovereignty over South Ossetia in the face of Russian opposition, it will be a huge setback to Moscow’s influence in the region and embolden other former Soviet republics, such as Ukraine and Azerbaijan. A defeat for the Georgians could signal the end of Mr Saakashvili’s rule and severely set back Georgia’s efforts to establish itself as a modern Western-looking democracy. Either way, the conflict risks further undermining the strained relations between Russia and the West.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4486297.ece
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post #15 of 135
8/10/08 at 7:22pm
It's really strange the silence in the US about this scary war brewing. I wonder what our position will ultimately be or what backdoor deals we've made over that pipeline. Yet another reason America needs to lead the charge in divorcing ourselves from fossil fuels.
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post #16 of 135
8/10/08 at 7:29pm
What could the US do?

Russia appears determined to give Georgia a very painful lesson. I don't think they'll back down before breaking them.
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post #17 of 135
8/10/08 at 8:02pm
Quote:
It was known that a serious confrontation had been building up. British Intelligence predicted this year that a war in the Caucasus was probable. The focus was Georgia, the West’s main ally in the region and the only export route for Caspian oil and gas outside Kremlin control.
Ahh, this pretty much explains it. The Kremlin is continuing his mad grab for oil. We should be really worried about this, because with Russia's huge oil reserves being almost completely controlled by the Government, well, we're pretty much screwed.
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post #18 of 135
8/10/08 at 8:07pm
It's pretty obvious why they chose the first day of the Olympics to start this, it's just too much of a coincidence for them to play it off like this wasn't planned. The Russians knew that most world leaders would be distracted by Beijing, much like our current president, who's on vacation but managed to make a phone call urging the Russians to stop bombing.

Thanks Prezz!
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post #19 of 135
8/10/08 at 9:00pm
Holy shit, did Russia's ROE just change to 'shoot anything that moves'?!

BBC news team deliberately fired upon by Russian warplane.


And if this is real, that's pretty fucking horrible propaganda.
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post #20 of 135
8/10/08 at 9:14pm
I can gurantee you more than 2,000 people were killed. Fucking Russians fuckin up my oil supply.
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post #21 of 135
8/11/08 at 2:44am
I swear when this broke out the Yahoo! News Headlines were, in order:

1) Olympic Opening Ceremony Dazzles in Beijing
2) Edwards Admits Affair, Denies Lovechild
3) Russia Invades Georgia

Any headline with "Invade" in it should almost automatically get top billing.
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post #22 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:06am
It might be interesting if Russia conquers Georgia before the Olympics is over and the Georgian Olympic team is basically dismantled on the international stage.
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post #23 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
It might be interesting if Russia conquers Georgia before the Olympics is over and the Georgian Olympic team is basically dismantled on the international stage.
Way to put things in perspective, as usual. Thousands of people killed: how will this effect the Olympics?
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post #24 of 135
8/11/08 at 4:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
Way to put things in perspective, as usual. Thousands of people killed: how will this effect [sic] the Olympics?
More importantly, how will it affect our analysis of the John Edwards sex scandal?
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post #25 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
It might be interesting if Russia conquers Georgia before the Olympics is over and the Georgian Olympic team is basically dismantled on the international stage.
It might be interes....are you that fucked?
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post #26 of 135
8/11/08 at 10:50am
Snaieke, once again confirming that conservatives have no heart.

Fuck the Olympics!
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post #27 of 135
8/11/08 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
Way to put things in perspective, as usual. Thousands of people killed: how will this effect the Olympics?
It will have zero impact on the Olympics but it most certainly would get the worlds attention if that happens.

Considering there has been zero involvement from anyone on the international stage aside from a little finger waging by Bush (at least, that I've seen reported) it doesn't look good considering how quickly Russia is steam rolling over Georgia. Having NATO or the UN scold Russia later on and get reported by a couple of international papers isn't exactly going to help Georgia, is it? Let's face it, this will not garner national or international attention in the terms of mainstream media but something like the Georgian Olympic team having no home to return to might be enough of a story that you get a spotlight on the ordeal because it would be reported during the Olympics when there is a much bigger audience.
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post #28 of 135
8/11/08 at 12:46pm
A couple of thoughts on this subject:

- The lack of attention this is getting by the MSM is blasphemous. I've railed against CNN, FoxNews, NBC, etc. for years and if this doesn't show how inept they are I don't know what will. NONE of the main networks can be defended here. This isn't a CNN vs. Fox debate but a damnation on all major US networks. Thank God more and more people in the world are using the web to get their information.

- I'm very curious to see what role the EU plays in resolving this. With Georgia so close to Turkey and Eastern Europe I think the EU needs to take the lead in resolving this. The last thing the EU wants is a power mad Russia. I see they've sent many reps to the area from France, UK, Swiss, etc. let's see if they get anything done.

- Was very interesting to see the Ukraine get slightly involved. They have a serious military unlike Georgia. If they stepped in on side of Georgia this could get really nasty.

- Read some Chinese papers today trying to gauge if anyone over there is concerned at all. Not really, could barely find any news on the conflict under all of the Olympic stuff. Expected, but with China trying to step up in the world I'm surprised they aren't getting more involved in this. A greedy and powerful Russia is more of a concern to China than even the EU.

- Obviously Putin and Russia don't give a flying fuck what other countries think of their actions here. Which is slightly shocking and very interesting to see the long-term effects of this situation.

- You just know that the Pentagon wants to get involved somewhat just to throw our latest weapons against a real army. This is the kind of thing that makes the Pentagon laugh at those who want to reduce the number of new F-22s, massive artillery launchers, etc.

- It saddens me to read the talkbacks on the UK papers where readers are blaming "Bush and Kosovo" for this. I get it that Bush fucked up a lot but please don't start making everything his fault. Come on people.

*Edit - oh, and if diplomacy doesn't work on quelling this issue you're just seen the end of that argument when it comes to Iran. You can bet your ass that folks in numerous governments will use this to say "see, diplomacy doesn't work!".
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post #29 of 135
8/11/08 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeSmails View Post
- Read some Chinese papers today trying to gauge if anyone over there is concerned at all. Not really, could barely find any news on the conflict under all of the Olympic stuff. Expected, but with China trying to step up in the world I'm surprised they aren't getting more involved in this. A greedy and powerful Russia is more of a concern to China than even the EU.
It's pretty much sure that China and Russia will eventually come to blows, as 2 big superpowers being so close together geographically is kinda a sure sign of conflict. Especially since Russia has a lot of natural resources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeSmails View Post

- Obviously Putin and Russia don't give a flying fuck what other countries think of their actions here. Which is slightly shocking and very interesting to see the long-term effects of this situation.
Shocking? Not really, especially since they "defend" Russians citizens in Ossetia (that was a nice move by Putin), they hold some sort of moral high ground. They'll look bad only if they continue pushing into Georgia.
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post #30 of 135
8/11/08 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
They'll look bad only if they continue pushing into Georgia.
Which They Continue To Do
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post #31 of 135
8/11/08 at 1:44pm
It was a given, especially since Mr. Dumb Georgian President delivered it on a silver platter.
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post #32 of 135
8/11/08 at 1:59pm
Yeah, I'm listening to hear what is suggested the US do in this situation. We're not about to cross into Georgia and help out in a lost cause. But I'd love to hear the Chinese speak up about it if they really want to enter the world as a major player.

That's where we're going to find balance in this, Russia vs China, round sixteen.

It makes me nostalgic for the Sino-Soviet days of the Cold War.
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post #33 of 135
8/11/08 at 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeSmails View Post
A couple of thoughts on this subject:

- The lack of attention this is getting by the MSM is blasphemous. I've railed against CNN, FoxNews, NBC, etc. for years and if this doesn't show how inept they are I don't know what will. NONE of the main networks can be defended here. This isn't a CNN vs. Fox debate but a damnation on all major US networks. Thank God more and more people in the world are using the web to get their information.

- I'm very curious to see what role the EU plays in resolving this. With Georgia so close to Turkey and Eastern Europe I think the EU needs to take the lead in resolving this. The last thing the EU wants is a power mad Russia. I see they've sent many reps to the area from France, UK, Swiss, etc. let's see if they get anything done.

- Was very interesting to see the Ukraine get slightly involved. They have a serious military unlike Georgia. If they stepped in on side of Georgia this could get really nasty.

- Read some Chinese papers today trying to gauge if anyone over there is concerned at all. Not really, could barely find any news on the conflict under all of the Olympic stuff. Expected, but with China trying to step up in the world I'm surprised they aren't getting more involved in this. A greedy and powerful Russia is more of a concern to China than even the EU.

- Obviously Putin and Russia don't give a flying fuck what other countries think of their actions here. Which is slightly shocking and very interesting to see the long-term effects of this situation.

- You just know that the Pentagon wants to get involved somewhat just to throw our latest weapons against a real army. This is the kind of thing that makes the Pentagon laugh at those who want to reduce the number of new F-22s, massive artillery launchers, etc.

- It saddens me to read the talkbacks on the UK papers where readers are blaming "Bush and Kosovo" for this. I get it that Bush fucked up a lot but please don't start making everything his fault. Come on people.

*Edit - oh, and if diplomacy doesn't work on quelling this issue you're just seen the end of that argument when it comes to Iran. You can bet your ass that folks in numerous governments will use this to say "see, diplomacy doesn't work!".
You would think people would have learned that diplomacy doesn't work after Hitler, but some people are just really slow learners.


If the US is not dropping aid in to Georgia right now then Bush did drip the ball. By aid I mean everything from food and meds to stingers and 50 Cal sniper rifles. After Katrina I am not holding my breath though. The Pentagon should have been making the first supply drop with in the first 48 hours of the first shot.
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post #34 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
You would think people would have learned that diplomacy doesn't work after Hitler, but some people are just really slow learners.
Aawh. How I love these broad strokes when it comes to war and peace. Not to get into a fight about the so-called Appeasement of Chamberlain, but History does indeed hold quite a few counter points in recent times.

Surely averting the Cuba-Crisis by diplomacy wasn´t the worst idea Kennedy had. And even Bush did not that bad with diplomacy in regard to North Korea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
If the US is not dropping aid in to Georgia right now then Bush did drip the ball. By aid I mean everything from food and meds to stingers and 50 Cal sniper rifles. After Katrina I am not holding my breath though. The Pentagon should have been making the first supply drop with in the first 48 hours of the first shot.
Uhhm, the Pentagon did airlift all 2000 Georgian troops from Iraq right back into Georgia. Russia will surely not cherish that move but it is quite an aid indeed.

Principles and morals are all nice and fair but Georgia is not exactly the country everybody, especially the US is hellbent to go to war about. With the US, the EU and even NATO and OSCE being "deeply concerned" the machine of international aid and diplomacy is shifting into high gears right now.

Hopefully Russia will not cross the Rubicon though and invade Tiflis and/or size the important gas routes that run right through Georgia. Than this could get really messy.
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post #35 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
You would think people would have learned that diplomacy doesn't work after Hitler, but some people are just really slow learners.
Really not trying to be a dick, but this is just a monstrously stupid attitude to have in the nuclear age.
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post #36 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
You would think people would have learned that diplomacy doesn't work after Hitler, but some people are just really slow learners. If the US is not dropping aid in to Georgia right now then Bush did drip the ball. By aid I mean everything from food and meds to stingers and 50 Cal sniper rifles
Well, North Korea and Libya worked out pretty well via diplomacy. Not on the same scale, but still. Trust me, I'm the last guy to roll over and let the UN decide things with talky-talk but you have to at least try. And dropping Stingers and .50 cals just isn't a good idea. While we may like Georgia and be friendly with them, we sure don't have any NATO like agreements to defend them. We're not about to go to a global war over Georgia. And how would we have felt if Russia had dropped a crapload of stingers and sniper rifles into Iraq during the invasion?

And do you seriously think a few stingers and rifles will slow down the Russians? They have the Georgians outnumbered 1000 to 1 when it comes to military size. All that would do is piss them off. Besides, I though the world was sick of us being the supercop? If we get involved militarily it'll be spun so that its all the US fault anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan
Hopefully Russia will not cross the Rubicon though and invade Tiflis and/or size the important gas routes that run right through Georgia. Than this could get really messy.
Almost there now, latest news says "Russia captured the central city of Gori and its armored vehicles rolled deep into western Georgia on Monday, seizing a military base and several towns and opening a second front of fighting. Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said the Russian forces had effectively cut his country in half. "
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post #37 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:30pm
I don't get why the US should get involved in a war between Russia and Georgia. This is not the Cold War and no side has a moral advantage in this. The world is not black and white.

That old nutshell, saying diplomacy doesn't work because of WWII? Still colossally stupid. It's a broad generalisation made by people who understand neither war nor diplomacy. And are completely ignorant about what led to WWII. There's good diplomacy and bad diplomacy.
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post #38 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastronikolas View Post
I don't get why the US should get involved in a war between Russia and Georgia. This is not the Cold War and no side has a moral advantage in this. The world is not black and white.
The quick answer is OIL.

However, there's no puppet dictator to remove, only a superpower eager to regain control of one of it's former state. So that changes the US attitude.
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post #39 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:38pm
Sorry, let me rephrase that: I don't get why someone would root for the US getting involved in a war between Russia and Georgia.
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post #40 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastronikolas View Post
Sorry, let me rephrase that: I don't get why someone would root for the US getting involved in a war between Russia and Georgia.
Because it's gonna affect the access to Caucasian oil, whether it's on a short or long term.
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post #41 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:41pm
I did not say send troops in, but we should be giving aid, and weapons are a part of aid. Beside Russia is not going to do shit to us if we are “selling” Georgia weapons in a time of war. That is even if they can prove it. Let the Georgie fight the war, but make sure that they have the right tool to win it. That is all I am saying.
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post #42 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
Let the Georgie fight the war, but make sure that they have the right tool to win it. That is all I am saying.
Considering the fact that they're outnumbered 100 to 1, the right tools against the Russian army would be nukes. And even then, they would still lose. Saakashvili counted on the US/UK help to stand against the Russian forces, and he lost.
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post #43 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:45pm
I was talking more on the level of average Joes saying "we must help out Georgia". I think that display of indignation is mostly the result of Russia waking up leftover reflexes from the Cold War.

The fact is that the Georgian leadership was fucking stupid. They are paying the price now. We should steer clear of the actual confrontation and just use diplomacy to keep as many people alive as possible.
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post #44 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
I did not say send troops in, but we should be giving aid, and weapons are a part of aid. Beside Russia is not going to do shit to us if we are “selling” Georgia weapons in a time of war. That is even if they can prove it. Let the Georgie fight the war, but make sure that they have the right tool to win it. That is all I am saying.
As I have pointed out before you brought their troops to the frontline. Their troops are equipped by US-weapons and where trained by hundreds of US military advisors.

So short of actively and openly siding with Georgia the US is actually pretty supporting right now.

And letting Georgia fight a proxy war is nothing short of insane. Georgia has about 35.000 soldiers. That will scare Russia shitless I guess.

And the only tool to "win" it would be a nuke. Or Dr. Manhattan.
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post #45 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastronikolas View Post
I was talking more on the level of average Joes saying "we must help out Georgia". I think that display of indignation is mostly the result of Russia waking up leftover reflexes from the Cold War.
The average Joes probably thinks that Atlanta is under siege, so that's a good motivation.

EDIT: Nick will most likely die unless the US intervene. Quick!
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post #46 of 135
8/11/08 at 3:50pm
Go Wolverines!
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post #47 of 135
8/11/08 at 4:06pm
Hell, between our local National Guard forces and our own military force (I shit you not - the Georgia State Defense Force) we probably have more troops than the country of Georgia. Mind you our forces get distracted by cans of Budweiser and anyone who yells "Go Dawgs!" but that is entirely beside the point.
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post #48 of 135
8/11/08 at 4:08pm
What I can't figure out is why Georgia does not have nukes. It not that hard to get nukes in that part of the world. I use to know who to buy Russian nukes are about a million $ US a pop, back in the good old 90s.
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post #49 of 135
8/11/08 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
What I can't figure out is why Georgia does not have nukes. It not that hard to get nukes in that part of the world. I use to know who to buy Russian nukes are about a million $ US a pop, back in the good old 90s.
Don't try to sound cool with your past connections. You just admitted to have a fucking Chihuahua in the spider thread, so unless you have a nuke in your possession right now you are not a man. Nor cool.
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post #50 of 135
8/11/08 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Vivisector View Post
It makes me nostalgic for the Sino-Soviet days of the Cold War.
You and me both, brother. You and me both.
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