Russia invades Georgia - Page 3

Rampant speculation and heresy...

The problem is that America seems impervious to responsibility for its actions...it is a superpower, and superpowers always end up being corrupt governments...(er, more corrupt than most...)

Don't see attacks on the country as something personal against yourself...it's healthy for a society to be dissidents to its authorities. You aren't America.

That's what I find so interesting about that country, how it being a melting pot has fucked it up so terribly...

And I think you're underestimating America a bit. Does the French Revolution happen without the formation of the United States? What's Africa look like without a Pro-Slavery U.S. dealing in the slave trade to fuel economic growth? Who opens Japan to the rest of the world? What about South America. That's just examining the late 18th and early to mid 19th century.

China has been a world player since the Sino-Soviet split (which, in my opinion, did more to end the Cold War than anything the United States did) but a real Superpower in terms of both global economic and military muscle? I don't think so.

This sounds a lot like "they hate us for our freedom" rhetoric. I think a majority of the world admires the rock of principles this nation was founded on and claims to represent: Social Justice, opportunity, liberty, and a free, democratic society. What people don't like is the hubris, hypocrisy and double standards the U.S. often foists on the rest of the world.

The U.S. regularly lectures the rest of the world on Nuclear Weapons and keeping them out of the hands of nation's they deem "unacceptable" but, to date, are the only nation on earth to actually use them. The use, of course, was to bring a swift end to the war and avoid a costly invasion in terms of blood and dollars.

The U.S. routinely lectures the rest of the world on Democracy and the greatness of a free society yet they've actively sought to overthrow popularly elected governments because they stood in the way of American objectives and interests.

We've already seen our current President "lecture" the Russians on seeking regime change in Georgia. Do you know how laughable that is considering what we've done in the last few years? It's when we do stuff like that people the world over say "Fucking Americans!"

How so? If you're barely living above the poverty line here how is that any different that in Russia or China?



We can postulate alternate theories all day long. One can argue both for and against.

The Germans have gone as far as to limit civil liberties to atone for the Holocaust. That's an example off the top of my head. There are others to be cited but I'm interested as to what you think the mistakes were and how do you think the U.S. made up for them.

That's why I'm honestly looking forward to Obama winning in November. If he can do better, fantastic and I'll vote for him for reelection. But with Pelosi in
Congress, my hopes are weak for improvement.

As it stands, McCain's people can't even run a campaign, let alone a Presidential administration. Hil's people were just as bad. At least Obama's
crew seems to be working on all cylinders.

The Reps need a good ass kicking for letting things get this bad, but so do the Dems. The more I hear about both parties and their high crimes and misdemeanors, the more I think we need a fresh revolution just as Jefferson recommended.

Not to derail this thread completely, but the history of the European integration after WWII is without any doubt one of the greater achievements of the European nations in recent history. And while the EU as an institution is not really liked by the citizens it is without alternative and the best path into the future in my eyes to paint it in really broad strokes.

But one has to keep in mind that it is first and foremost an Economical Union. The political and even more social integration is still at the very beginning of its evolution.

And while a. is highly unlikely in the near future because of the historical good relationships with Russia and sheer dependance of their resources and b. is actually something that is in development (KFOR in Kosovo as the first - tiny - step) there has to be a c. and a d. and so forth.

And since energy policy nowadays is surely one of the prime interest of states it is no wonder that European countries are hesitant to give up their national autonomy in this field. But I am convinced that the pure neccessity of a coherent energy policy will rather sooner than later lead to a more coherent approach. (Actually the Commission is working in high gear to put forward interesting proposals. But that is for another thread I guess.)



I reckon I don´t get what you are aiming at? Without any snark, what do you mean by "limiting civil liberties to atone for the holocaust?"

You can't depict the Swastika or other Nazi iconography, mention Hitler in certain contexts, deny the Holocaust exists, etc. Being a racist monster is, believe it or not, a civil liberty, and expressing your monstrousness in certain ways is illegal in Germany.

Getting David Hasselhoff a singing career in Germany is one valid example, just like the ones Overlord named.

All right. That is what I thought.

But this is actually something the Western "liberation forces" dictated into German law. Since it is forbidden by criminal law to deny the holocaust it is not protected by the freedom of expression. In the dogma of German law this is justifiable. (I reckon it is somewhat similar from a theoretical point of view to what you consider hate crimes.)

But I absolutely agree with you that a potent and free country with a stable and fine functioning legal system like Germany has no need in nowadays to forbid racist believes. I am a supporter of fighting stupidity with education and history rather than blind legal consequences. Even retards and fascists have the right to freedom of expression.

And, to quote Ed Hocken, we paid you back good for Hasselhoff with Tokio Hotel....

I think writing a pamphlet about how Hitler was a swell guy and how The Jew is a liar aren't the same things as burning a cross in people's yards or lynching a black man in Texas for some Saturday night fun Jan.
Believe it or not, in this country there are people who actively oppose Federal Hate Crime legislation on the grounds of "state's rights" since, you know, the state's have a brilliant and long history of upholding racial equality.


You're also very correct about the EU. It's amazing to think that only a couple of generations ago Europe was running red with blood every couple of years because somebody different wanted to play king (or king maker).

Oh, and thanks to Overlord for the assist. He's Chud's own Vinnie Johnson; coming off the bench to take over.

Are you fucking kidding?

Actually, in some cases the EU is already fraying at the edges. A few countries, for example Austria but others too, have a quickly growing vocal group of people, now freshly supported by the right-wing parties, who think they got the short end of the stick.

And wish to back out of the EU again. Now, on the surface that may seem like a bunch of deluded guys, but the idea is getting traction, and quite a few of the richer countries DO pay for the economically weaker ones right now, and/or suffer consequences of having the same currency.

Its kind of pathetic really.

Oh please, because massive generalisations that the rest of the world hate you is so much better than thinking the rest of the world is generalising about you.

American myopic exceptionalism at its finest.

This war is basically what Iraq should have been. If George honestly thought he could sell the whole "WMD" thing he should have just let the US army roll like Russia is doing now.

Russia is basically proving that because they are one of the big 5 military powers (intercontinental) you can basically do what you want, whenever you want and no one can stop you. Neither the US, China, UK or France will do anything more then send some words at each other...as they aren't willing to fight each other in the open as they know what it means.

Hmmm.

The footage in question (and the rest of the story) is here.

I would just like to make it clear that not all Americans are such huge, gushing, whiny pussies as Dr. Vivisector.

No probs Schwartz, America wouldn't have had the century it did throughout the 20th if you were.

Apologies to all....I've been having a rough week or more. Didn't mean to be so gushingly whiny.

Mikhail Gorbachev weighed in yesterday:

Thanks for posting that piece by Gorbachev, Trav McGee.

This passage in particular is critical in understanding what happened in Georgia, and how some are speculating that McCain is up to his eyeballs in this through his foreign relations adviser -- one of the neocons behind the invasion of Iraq and now a lobbyist for Georgia.

Was this supposed to be McCain's October surprise?

How comforting to know that after 8 years of unnecessary wars for political capital and war profiteering, we're seeing the shape of things to come in McCain's "We are all Georgians" moment.

Are you really watching the Drudge Report for a response to this? How do you expect Russia to act. Look at what Saakashvili is saying about the US vis a vis McCain's bluster over the past couple of days...

source.

Wow....thats a lot of info right there.

Does "developing" mean watching the RSS feeds for the British Tabloids?

Focus people.

Stop whining about the Drudge Report and at least post a link to the article that has more information;
http://www.reuters.com/article/lates...s/idUSLD508969

Hmmm....interesting.

So what happens if we do abandon our "virtual project" in Georgia?

I think we all have to remember that we're all still struggling to understand the dimensions of what's going on over there. On top of the general remoteness, there are two competing narratives being put forward. In one, Russia is the aggressor of western-leaning Georgia. In the other, South Ossetia is struggling for its independence, and encouraged by allies in the west, Georgia invades to assert control, followed by Russia's actions in defense of South Ossetia.

Having McCain's foreign policy adviser be Georgia's lobbyist adds another weird element to the story. There have also been reports of US and Israeli support of the Georgian army, which still hasn't been made completely clear.

An interesting interview with Richard Morningstar, Bill Clinton's chief BTC pipeline negotiator, about the ramifications of the pipeline for the conflict and beyond.

Not at all. Your gushing whininess is much missed.

eta credit to werbal where credit is due.

the funny

Hahaha pure gold.

Rolling????? What Russia is doing now in Georgia is tiny compared to the US's invasion of Iraq. If the Russian Army rolls into Tbilisi and overthrows the President of Georgia it might compare.

Right now it more like the Russian Equivalant of the First Gulf War.

1. Russia pushing Georgian army back out of South Ossetia = Americans pushing Iraq back out of Kuwait.

2. Russia advancing into Georgia to the city of Gori = Americans advancing into Iraq to the city of Basra.

3. Afterwards Russia will probably end up still protecting South Ossetia and Abkhazia from Georgia with "Peacekeepers" = Americans ends up protecting the Kurdish & Shiite Areas with the "No-Fly Zone".

The big difference between the two is that Iraq tried to take control of a seperate country, Kuwait, while Georgia tried to take control over their own province. And Russia is now considering whether they should advance to Tbilisi to overthrow a democratically elected government while America considered back then if they should have advanced to Baghdad to overthrow an unelected dictator.

See people, it's the little things that make all the difference....

Also, one was authorized by the U.N. let's not forget that little detail.

How about not also forgetting that, considering South Ossetia and Abkhazia are separatist reasons that pretty much never wanted to be part of Georgia itself, the idea of considering the Georgian government their "democratically elected government" is not entirely accurate either?

I think Putin has been proven to be the Ivan Drago to Georgia's Apollo Creed (in Rocky IV) that I said he was a week ago.

Especially after his pussyfooting around the supposed cease fire agreement.

Dear John McCain,

Not everyone wants to start WWIII over bad advice from lobbyist-advisers.

Sincerely,
Colin Powell

PS. This is what sane foreign policy sounds like.

edited to add: I realize this doesn't forgive the hideous UN speech, but it's good to hear some truth spoken out loud on the subject of Georgia, for once.