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Russia invades Georgia - Page 2

post #51 of 135
8/11/08 at 4:22pm
Ah, gotta love all the war over oil.
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post #52 of 135
8/11/08 at 4:33pm
And Russia is arguably better at it than the US, since it only has to intimidate neighbours and doesn't have to occupy them. Just beats the crap out of them.
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post #53 of 135
8/11/08 at 4:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
Don't try to sound cool with your past connections. You just admitted to have a fucking Chihuahua in the spider thread, so unless you have a nuke in your possession right now you are not a man. Nor cool.
I was not trying to sound cool, just making a point. That Russian Nuke are really easy to come by. I am a no body, and I at one time knew how to get the nukes. A government should also know how to get then.




Don't disrespect the Chihuahuas they hold grudges forever. Also only men with small a 'DOG' feel the need to own large dogs, if you know what I mean.
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post #54 of 135
8/11/08 at 4:52pm
When you see someone coming your way with a Chihuahua in one hand and a Soviet nuke in the other, you better get the fuck out of Dodge.
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post #55 of 135
8/11/08 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
I was not trying to sound cool, just making a point. That Russian Nuke are really easy to come by. I am a no body, and I at one time knew how to get the nukes. A government should also know how to get then.
Good lord, than we are lucky that Teheran, El Kaida etc. are just plain stupid and don´t have an Ebay account I guess.
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post #56 of 135
8/11/08 at 4:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
Good lord, than we are lucky that Teheran, El Kaida etc. are just plain stupid and don´t have an Ebay account I guess.
We are, indeed.
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post #57 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
Good lord, than we are lucky that Teheran, El Kaida etc. are just plain stupid and don´t have an Ebay account I guess.
Not an e-bay account, but knowing someone in the Russian Mob, or someone work with the Russian mob, might help. The really big problem with the Russian Nukes is not buying one, but transporting it. Who says that does Teheran does not own Russian nukes? What do you think they are using for blueprints to build their own nukes with?
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post #58 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastronikolas View Post
I was talking more on the level of average Joes saying "we must help out Georgia". I think that display of indignation is mostly the result of Russia waking up leftover reflexes from the Cold War.

The fact is that the Georgian leadership was fucking stupid. They are paying the price now. We should steer clear of the actual confrontation and just use diplomacy to keep as many people alive as possible.
How were they stupid? Its their freaking terrortory, they own it.
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post #59 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
Not an e-bay account, but knowing someone in the Russian Mob, or someone work with the Russian mob, might help. The really big problem with the Russian Nukes is not buying one, but transporting it. Who says that does Teheran does not own Russian nukes? What do you think they are using for blueprints to build their own nukes with?
There is no denying that there is a real and immanent threat of functioning nuclear bombs, technique and material has been sold to numerous sources. Just ask Dr. Khan.

But coming back to your original point, there is a difference between owning a nuclear warhead or a nuclear bomb and having the military and technical infrastructure to use it for a real nuclear assault.

While even Teheran does not seem crazy enough to just detonate a bomb (speculating they own one) in Jerusalem, Georgia surely is not suicidal enough to threaten Russia with a tiny nuke compared to their arsenal.
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post #60 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rourkefan View Post
How were they stupid? Its their freaking terrortory, they own it.
They were stupid in the fact they they were not ready for a Russian invasion. If they were smart they would have had a some nukes and scuds read just for this. Then they could have done what China in the 70s, when Vietnam invaded them, which say get they fuck out of Dodge or we will nuke your ass.
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post #61 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:10pm
Just when I think the world we live in is too bleak and terrifying to stand without going mad, I get a glimpse of the one that exists in eenin's head, and am overcome with gratitude.
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post #62 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rourkefan View Post
How were they stupid? Its their freaking terrortory, they own it.
It is a tiny bit more complicated than that with respect to the history of Georgia though.

In the light of Kosovo Russia does have a valid point in this mess actually.
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post #63 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
There is no denying that there is a real and immanent threat of functioning nuclear bombs, technique and material has been sold to numerous sources. Just ask Dr. Khan.

But coming back to your original point, there is a difference between owning a nuclear warhead or a nuclear bomb and having the military and technical infrastructure to use it for a real nuclear assault.

While even Teheran does not seem crazy enough to just detonate a bomb (speculating they own one) in Jerusalem, Georgia surely is not suicidal enough to threaten Russia with a tiny nuke compared to their arsenal.
It work for China. Vietnam had destroyed they armies in the south and were a 150 miles over the boarder.
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post #64 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
It work for China. Vietnam had destroyed they armies in the south and were a 150 miles over the boarder.
Apples and Oranges and all that.

I could argue that attacking Poland and Checoslowakia worked out very smooth for Germany in 1938 as well. But that would be insane.

And I would actually like to know why you seem so hellbent on war. To reiterate my question from earlier: "Why do you think it is a good idea to let Georgia fight a proxy war against Russia on behalf of the US?"
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post #65 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
Not an e-bay account, but knowing someone in the Russian Mob, or someone work with the Russian mob, might help. The really big problem with the Russian Nukes is not buying one, but transporting it. Who says that does Teheran does not own Russian nukes? What do you think they are using for blueprints to build their own nukes with?
Thankfully we can track all meaningful radioactive sources using satellites. So, you can buy them, but yeah ... transporting gets tricky.
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post #66 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
It's pretty much sure that China and Russia will eventually come to blows, as 2 big superpowers being so close together geographically is kinda a sure sign of conflict. Especially since Russia has a lot of natural resources.
Actually, I'm wondering how the Middle East is going to receive the perception of Russia starting an aggressive landgrab stance again, being as they're right next door and all.
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post #67 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
I was not trying to sound cool, just making a point. That Russian Nuke are really easy to come by. I am a no body, and I at one time knew how to get the nukes. A government should also know how to get then.




Don't disrespect the Chihuahuas they hold grudges forever. Also only men with small a 'DOG' feel the need to own large dogs, if you know what I mean.
Your size comparison works for cars only. What you have is not a dog, it's a barking Mexican rat with bat ears. And I will make a point of having my husky tear the shit out of any Chihuahua it encounters.

Thread-wise, the guys made the point. It's one thing to buy it, another to take it to location.
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post #68 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake View Post
Actually, I'm wondering how the Middle East is going to receive the perception of Russia starting an aggressive landgrab stance again, being as they're right next door and all.
Well, Russia ain't all soft and cuddly-like. Government sponsored terrorist groups start mucking around with the [ex-] Soviet Bear I'm thinking it won't be pretty.
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post #69 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:27pm
I can't believe that any one here would think Vlady "Assasination King" Putin has a point on anything.

The Guy is an evil greedy fascist bastard.

Even though the asshole is worth billions, he still stole the New England Patriots owner's first superbowl ring. What an ass.
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post #70 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake View Post
Actually, I'm wondering how the Middle East is going to receive the perception of Russia starting an aggressive landgrab stance again, being as they're right next door and all.
That's a good point, but the Middle East is composed of fractious countries who couldn't defeat the Israeli army numerous times, so unless they unite, most likely under a Islamic banner, there's virtually no threat there unless it's oil sanctions.
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post #71 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rourkefan View Post
I can't believe that any one here would think Vlady "Assasination King" Putin has a point on anything.

The Guy is an evil greedy fascist bastard. Even though the asshole is worth millions, he still stole the New England Patriots owner's first superbowl ring.
LOOKOUT, ATLANTA IS UNDER ATTACK!
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post #72 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
LOOKOUT, ATLANTA IS UNDER ATTACK!
Putin likes it up the pooper!

Hows that for witty repartee?
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post #73 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:39pm
Not bad, but still above your Budweiser-like level. The fact that you trace Putin under such broad strokes is dumb as fuck. He may have killed using polonium, but again, want to make the same comparisons with other world leaders on who they killed? It's a long list.

He's ruthless, that's for sure, but he's acting for the Russian interests.
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post #74 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
Not bad, but still above your Budweiser-like level. The fact that you trace Putin under such broad strokes is dumb as fuck. He may have killed using polonium, but again, want to make the same comparisons with other world leaders on who they killed? It's a long list.

He's ruthless, that's for sure, but he's acting for the Russian interests.
I will admit it. I am prejudiced against russians who look like Ivan Drago.
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post #75 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:47pm
Yeah but he crossed the line with this shit, Savage. Invading a country just as a power grab (looks at a picture of Iraq)...um nevermind.
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post #76 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:48pm
Eenin has a chihuahua. Mickey Rourke has chihuahuas. Rourkefan appears out of nowhere.

Is Eenin Mickey Rourke?
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post #77 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rourkefan View Post
Yeah but he crossed the line with this shit, Savage. Invading a country just as a power grab (looks at a picture of Iraq)...um nevermind.
That is not entirely correct. Read more news, a bit of history and think again about the can of worms we opened with Kosovo in regard to the justification through "humanitarian intervention".
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post #78 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:51pm
The whole point seems to be a first step at reconstituting the old Soviet Empire. South Ossetia is just an in. They want to reintegrate valuable former territory and fully restore Russia's "glory" on the world stage. Now, I'm sure not all of it will look like this; some of it will be diplomatic and/or economic alliances and others will be behind the scene/covert support on overthrowing elected regimes and replacing them with Pro-Moscow crowds but make no mistake this is going to end up being a wet dream for U.S. Defense contractors.

The 80's are back!
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post #79 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:52pm
I somewhat "respect" Russia for not trying to bullshit the world with false pretenses like the US did. They had some for Ossetia, but now they go for a big fuck you.
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post #80 of 135
8/11/08 at 5:58pm
While this is all speculation at this point I don´t think Russia will actually reintegrate their former territory. I can hardly imagine they gonna occupy Georgia. There is neither a military nor economical benefit. Besides the hunger for former glory, as you pointed rightfully out. And to bully Georgia into submission they don´t need an occupation like in Cechnya.

The main reason in my eyes though is keeping "the West" (i.e. Nato and the EU) out of the porch of Russia. Their weird Plutocraty (sp in English?) is definitely threatened by the BTC pipeline and the West franatically trying to circumvent their ressources around the Russian sphere of influence.
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post #81 of 135
8/11/08 at 7:22pm
McCain's foreign policy adviser was not only a lobbyist for Georgia, but also one of the PNAC cheerleaders for regime change in Iraq.
Quote:
Mr. Scheunemann's firm, Orion Strategies, continues to represent Georgia in Washington, and signed a new $200,000 contract with the country in April. Mr. Scheunemann remains an owner of the firm, though he is no longer registered to lobby for it. Mr. Scheunemann said he has made more than a dozen trips to Georgia since he began lobbying for the country in 2004.

The crisis puts a spotlight on Mr. Scheunemann, 48 years old, who has long been a leading neoconservative voice in the American foreign-policy debate. He played a prominent role advocating for toppling Saddam Hussein, serving in 2002 as executive director of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq. At a key moment before the war, he helped to line up allies in "New Europe" -- notably former Soviet bloc states like Latvia -- to write a letter in support of the invasion. That came as "Old Europe" American allies like France and Germany resisted.
...
Mr. Scheunemann's firm has earned more than $2 million since 2004 lobbying U.S. officials, including Sen. McCain and his staff, on behalf of various clients including Georgia, records show.Source.
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post #82 of 135
8/11/08 at 7:30pm
Eenin: Diplomacy never works, just ask Hitler! (obviously: diplomacy has been the primary solution to international conflict since WWII, that's why we are not already living in a post-apocalyptic role playing scenario.)

Eenin: why aren't we supporting Georgia? (answer: we already have!)

Eenin: I know where you can buy nukes in Central Asia, easy! (CIA: hello, Mr. Eenin.)

Any other nuggets of wisdom you wish to impart?
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post #83 of 135
8/11/08 at 7:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
I don´t think Russia will actually reintegrate their former territory.
At the very least they will ensure that South Ossetia becomes independent of Georgia. And am I the only one who thinks South Ossetia sounds ridiculously similar to the name of some fake ass country in Ace Combat?
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post #84 of 135
8/11/08 at 7:38pm
It is not exactly what we would call a homogenic entity that evolved over centuries. The whole Caucasus is a melting pot of different tribes and ethnicities. South Ossetia has actually about 75.000 people living there. Not exactly a super power.

But I absolutely agree that Russia will ensure that these areas will remain in their sphere of influence. Mother Russia does not really like Georgia and Ukraine and their revolutions and subsequent turn to the West to become a beacon of light for the countless other areas of interest in that region. Though, as I have said before too, there seems no need for occupation when you can just bully Georgia in line.

But ultimately this situation is wedlocked. Even if status quo is regained there will be no solution to the underlying problems and the same shit will happen again in the years to come.
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post #85 of 135
8/11/08 at 11:04pm
WIRED posted an interesting article on why news may be so slow coming out of Georgia:

Quote:
Civil.ge, the Georgian news site, is "under permanent [cyber] attack." So they've switched their operations to one of Google's Blogspot domains, to keep the information flowing about what's going on in their country.

The attacks against Civil.ge are part of a larger set of online assaults, originating in Russia, against Georgian websites.

"In a sense," notes Jim Stogdill, "they must be saying 'we can't keep our sites up, but we don't think [Russian hackers] can take down Blogspot, given Google's much better infrastructure and ability to defend it.'"

"Another interesting aspect is seeing how certain countries are what I call 'cyberlocked,'" cybersecurity veteran Richard Bejtlich tells Danger Room. "We know a land-locked country has no access to the sea. Countries like .ge [Georgia] might rely too heavily on one or a handful of connections, potentially through hostile countries (eg, .ru [Russia]), for their physical connectivity. As a result, an adversary can control their network access to the outside world. A diagram from the Packet Clearing House, shows Georgia's network dilemma.

Meanwhile, Estonia (once the victim of Russian-based hackers) is now hosting Georgia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. And "in a historic first, Estonia is sending cyberdefense advisors to Georgia," Network World observes.

And, of course, the strikes aren't just made up of ones and zeros. The Russians are reportedly bombing Georgia's telecommunications infrastructure -- including cell towers. "It's still very difficult to get a call anywhere around the country right now," an NPR reporter says.

UPDATE: Two Azerbaijani media outlets claim they're under assault, too. And some Russian sites are getting hit, in what appears to be a bit of cyber-payback.

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/0...e-the-geo.html
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post #86 of 135
8/12/08 at 1:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
While this is all speculation at this point I don´t think Russia will actually reintegrate their former territory. I can hardly imagine they gonna occupy Georgia. There is neither a military nor economical benefit. Besides the hunger for former glory, as you pointed rightfully out. And to bully Georgia into submission they don´t need an occupation like in Cechnya.

The main reason in my eyes though is keeping "the West" (i.e. Nato and the EU) out of the porch of Russia. Their weird Plutocraty (sp in English?) is definitely threatened by the BTC pipeline and the West franatically trying to circumvent their ressources around the Russian sphere of influence.
Installing puppet regimes is just as good as re-integration. Besides, it gives you time to properly propagandize the population.


It's painfully obvious as to what the end game is if you've been paying attention the last few years: Russia sees a return to legitimate superpower status as a bulwark against what they feel is American hegemony.
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post #87 of 135
8/12/08 at 3:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pop Zeus View Post
Ah, gotta love all the war over oil.
Living on top of a whole bunch of oil, all this stuff worries me. I should change my family words to something like "Winter is coming" or "We're so screwed".
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post #88 of 135
8/12/08 at 8:08am
It may be the fact Im stressed cause I’ve started a new job, the fact that Im prone to hyperbole at the best of time, or the bottle of half-decent shiraz I’ve just put away, but I can’t help but feel we’re at a real turning point in history right now – the end of the wests’ dominance of world affairs.

Between China ‘coming out‘ to the world as a massive economic power and Russia re-flexing its muscles in Georgia without even pretending to keep NATO, the US and Europe onside while it does it, I honestly feel the history books will look back on August 2008 as a point when the strands of time signified that the status quo all of us spoiled westerners have grown up with is basically over.

...and its scaring the bejesus outta me.
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post #89 of 135
8/12/08 at 9:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabass Inna Bun View Post
Living on top of a whole bunch of oil, all this stuff worries me. I should change my family words to something like "Winter is coming" or "We're so screwed".
You're sitting on dirty bad oil. And you're right beside them, so they'll invade you last. After the arctic oil.

I agree with Jan that there's no way they'll occupy Georgia, but if it goes well for them they'll have created a situation where they'll have indirectly pushed the current administration and replaced it with one who's more malleable towards Russian interests. All of this is a show of strength to NATO, and a reminder to Ukraine and other former states that the concept of Mother Russia is very alive. And since the Russian stopped their operations, they'll have both gained from their military showoff and by showing a bit of restraint.
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post #90 of 135
8/12/08 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
It may be the fact Im stressed cause I’ve started a new job, the fact that Im prone to hyperbole at the best of time, or the bottle of half-decent shiraz I’ve just put away, but I can’t help but feel we’re at a real turning point in history right now – the end of the wests’ dominance of world affairs.

Between China ‘coming out‘ to the world as a massive economic power and Russia re-flexing its muscles in Georgia without even pretending to keep NATO, the US and Europe onside while it does it, I honestly feel the history books will look back on August 2008 as a point when the strands of time signified that the status quo all of us spoiled westerners have grown up with is basically over.

...and its scaring the bejesus outta me.
With all the hyperbole about China becoming a world superpower, and Putin dusting off the Bear's claws again....

The world with again turn towards America, the "World's Policeman"

After generations of getting kicked in the teeth for doing what it could to
keep Sino-Soviet ambitions in check, let the rest of the world have a go at it. Let's see if they can do better after all the bitching about us.

I'm guessing they'll start reining one another in once more, since history is cyclic.

All the more reason for us to get energy independent as soon as possible.
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post #91 of 135
8/12/08 at 11:38am
The "world's policeman" is directly at fault for a lot of this mess. The current U.S. Administration has sought to re-encircle Russian with a new Iron Curtain by allying itself with the Georgia's and pushing for NATO expansion into the Balkans and Caucuses. That doesn't excuse Russian for what they've done but I do understand it. Like I said earlier, from the Russian perspective, a lot of the moves from the late 90's to today have just reinforced paranoia in Moscow about U.S. objectives to begin with.



Also, keeping "Sino-Soviet ambitions in check" were not some altruistic goal made for the benefit of human kind. We were no better than the Soviets. We just had the moral shields of Democracy and Freedom to hold up while trying to grab the same economic and military spoils that the Soviets were after.
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post #92 of 135
8/12/08 at 11:47am
Do as the World's Policeman says, not as the World's Policeman does.
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post #93 of 135
8/12/08 at 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Vivisector View Post
With all the hyperbole about China becoming a world superpower, and Putin dusting off the Bear's claws again....

The world with again turn towards America, the "World's Policeman"

After generations of getting kicked in the teeth for doing what it could to
keep Sino-Soviet ambitions in check, let the rest of the world have a go at it. Let's see if they can do better after all the bitching about us.
It's no hyperbole, unless you're completely ignorant, or blind. The rest of the world would be different without constant US interventions, but worse? It's pure speculation, but your assessment that the US are "the good guys" while the Russians are the "bad guys" is childish and smells of hairspray.
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post #94 of 135
8/12/08 at 11:54am
I find it foolish to think we're going to have "energy independence" in this country as long as it can be used like a strategic military tool. The U.S. wants pipeline expansion in the Caucuses to blunt Russian energy domination of the E.U. to keep those pesky Euro's in line.
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post #95 of 135
8/12/08 at 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post
I find it foolish to think we're going to have "energy independence" in this country as long as it can be used like a strategic military tool. The U.S. wants pipeline expansion in the Caucuses to blunt Russian energy domination of the E.U. to keep those pesky Euro's in line.
While you are right about the strategic motivations of the US the EU trouble in regard to energy independence goes far deeper than that.

Main problem being the fact that one can hardly speak of the EU in that regard. Rather of very different particular interests of European states. Which is a travesty and tragedy in itself. While Germany goes on to make big buisness with Russia (Thanks to former Chancellor Schröder being advisor to Gazprom now) now to buy less from the Gulf states other countries prefer to build Atomic Power Plants while others push renewable energies. Where coherence and a common EU policy is really needed the countries look back on their own national interests in the short term while loosing the race in the long term for sure.

No wonder the EU shoots itself in the foot in that sector more often than not and is an easy opponent for the big players like US or Russia.
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post #96 of 135
8/12/08 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
While you are right about the strategic motivations of the US the EU trouble in regard to energy independence goes far deeper than that.

Main problem being the fact that one can hardly speak of the EU in that regard. Rather of very different particular interests of European states. Which is a travesty and tragedy in itself. While Germany goes on to make big buisness with Russia (Thanks to former Chancellor Schröder being advisor to Gazprom now) now to buy less from the Gulf states other countries prefer to build Atomic Power Plants while others push renewable energies. Where coherence and a common EU policy is really needed the countries look back on their own national interests in the short term while loosing the race in the long term for sure.

No wonder the EU shoots itself in the foot in that sector more often than not and is an easy opponent for the big players like US or Russia.


It's not so easy trying to create a plurality is it?

What the E.U. has accomplished thus far is amazing and coupled with it's still untapped potential and growth I'm still of a mind that the only things its really been exceptional at is playing the United States and Russia off of each other. One day though they're going to have pick a side again if current trends continue. For the E.U. to be truly indepedent of the whims of U.S. and Russia foreign policy they're going to either

a. Totally cut itself off of reliance on Russian energy

or

b. Become a united, dominate military power capable of defending territorial integrity on it's own.
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post #97 of 135
8/12/08 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post
a. Totally cut itself off of reliance on Russian energy

or

b. Become a united, dominate military power capable of defending territorial integrity on it's own.
a is much more likely than b. Can you see the EU powers spending enough money to make either happen? Nope. And even if they bit the bullet and did it would only be a. Can you imagine how the EU populace would react to "hey, we're increasing taxes even further to build up a military that can stand up to Russia, China and the US". Ain't gonna happen.
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post #98 of 135
8/12/08 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
It's no hyperbole, unless you're completely ignorant, or blind. The rest of the world would be different without constant US interventions, but worse? It's pure speculation, but your assessment that the US are "the good guys" while the Russians are the "bad guys" is childish and smells of hairspray.
The Chinese have been a superpower for decades, they're only trying to put a better face on things now.

As for my assessment of 'good' and 'bad' guys...well, I'd like to think that I'm not exactly the evil consumer/planet destroyer the rest of the world tries to make me out to be. My standard of living isn't good enough for me to be considered much above the poverty line. But I also know that if I was living elsewhere like in China or Russia, my life would be far worse than it is.

That brings up a whole thread of a question. What would the world look like had the US never formed back in the giddy days of 1776? No doubt from most posters here it would be a far better place. I beg to differ.

Have we made massive mistakes? Oh, yes. But the thing about Americans, I think, is that we do try to do better and even make up for the mistakes from time to time. I don't see that on the world stage that much.
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post #99 of 135
8/12/08 at 1:42pm
I think you're overestimating the impact of America on the world. Sure, their belated involvement in WWII helped to preserve a certain status quo, but the truth of that war is that the Soviets won. To the original segue—I'd rather be bossed by a stoic straightface than a gurning buffoon.
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post #100 of 135
8/12/08 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Vivisector View Post
Have we made massive mistakes? Oh, yes. But the thing about Americans, I think, is that we do try to do better and even make up for the mistakes from time to time. I don't see that on the world stage that much.
It's been viewed as pretentious to believe that the US are currently the "good guys and World Policemen", as the rest of the world would differ. It's a belief that comes from the last 2 World Wars, as you fought on the good side and that where the view stems from, but the last 60 years have been filled with much more shitty stuff that's been geared towards US interests than gracious police actions.

It's not to say that the country is evil, but try selling me that , for example, installing Pinochet on power in Chiles is less "evil" than what Russian just did?
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