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The Cold War 2.0 Thread

post #1 of 113
Thread Starter 
First Georgia, now this. And so it begins...

Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080815/...issile_defense

Quote:
MOSCOW - A top Russian general said Friday that Poland's agreement to accept a U.S. missile interceptor base exposes the ex-communist nation to attack, possibly by nuclear weapons, the Interfax news agency reported.

The statement by Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn is the strongest threat that Russia has issued against the plans to put missile defense elements in former Soviet satellite nations.

Poland and the United States on Thursday signed a deal for Poland to accept a missile interceptor base as part of a system the United States says is aimed at blocking attacks by rogue nations. Moscow, however, feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force.

"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent," Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff, was quoted as saying.

He added, in clear reference to the agreement, that Russia's military doctrine sanctions the use of nuclear weapons "against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them." Nogovitsyn that would include elements of strategic deterrence systems, he said, according to Interfax.

At a news conference earlier Friday, Nogovitsyn had reiterated Russia's frequently stated warning that placing missile-defense elements in Poland and the Czech Republic would bring an unspecified military response. But his subsequent reported statement substantially stepped up a war of words.

Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski was quoted Friday by the Polish news agency PAP as saying that Poland is open to Russian inspections because it wants to give Moscow "tangible proof" that the planned base is not directed against Russia.

U.S. officials have said the timing of the deal was not meant to antagonize Russian leaders at a time when relations already are strained over the recent fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian region of South Ossetia.

Russian forces went deep into Georgia in the fighting, raising wide concerns that Russia could be seeking to occupy parts of its small, pro-U.S. neighbor, which has vigorously lobbied to join NATO, or even to force its government to collapse.

"I think the Russian behavior over the last several days is generally concerning not only to the United States but to all of our European allies," said Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman, when asked about Russian threats against Poland as a result of the missile defense agreement.

He also suggested that earlier U.S. offers for broad cooperation with Moscow on the missile defense program may be reevaluated considering the latest developments.

Under the agreement that Warsaw and Washington reached Thursday, Poland will accept an American missile interceptor base.

Washington says the planned system, which is not yet operational, is needed to protect the U.S. and Europe from possible attacks by missile-armed "rogue states" like Iran. The Kremlin, however, feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force and warns it will worsen tensions.

In an interview on Poland's news channel TVN24, Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said the United States agreed to help augment Poland's defenses with Patriot missiles in exchange for placing 10 missile defense interceptors in the Eastern European country.

He said the deal also includes a "mutual commitment" between the two nations to come to each other's assistance "in case of trouble."

That clause appeared to be a direct reference to Russia.

Poland has all along been guided by fears of a newly resurgent Russia, an anxiety that has intensified with Russia's offensive in Georgia. In past days, Polish leaders said that fighting justified Poland's demands that it get additional security guarantees from Washington in exchange for allowing the anti-missile base on its soil.

"Simply the existence of this installation increases Poland's security," Polish President Lech Kaczynski said Friday.
Let's start hearing bets on future relations at this rate, I've not heard anything like this in my lifetime. Georgia may have been a small fry but Poland's a NATO member. I wonder if in this day and age we'd be willing to square off with a major power like that at the drop of a hat the moment tanks rolled over a border, considering the fact that this country hasn't faced a military of even remotely comparable strength since we squared off against China in the Korean War generations ago. Dirty fuckin' Russians!

post #2 of 113
Funny how this all happens the summer War Games celebrates its 25th Anniversary. Coincidence? I THINK NOT.
post #3 of 113
I haven't been this frightened of what the news is going to tell me since September 11th.
post #4 of 113
That bus beheading was scarier than this...
post #5 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
Funny how this all happens the summer War Games celebrates its 25th Anniversary. Coincidence? I THINK NOT.
The only way to win...IS NOT TO PLAY.

How about a nice game of chess?
post #6 of 113
I guess maybe I'm taking this a bit too seriously and I do often tend to over-worry about things (Damn my mother to hell for passing down that gene).

Still, isn't anyone the slightest bit concerned? Am I really that off-base?
post #7 of 113
Our lives will [most-likely] play out as usual regardless of US/USSR-relations.
Needless worry.
post #8 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew C
That bus beheading was scarier than this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew C View Post
Our lives will [most-likely] play out as usual regardless of US/USSR-relations.
Needless worry.
post #9 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakespeare View Post
I guess maybe I'm taking this a bit too seriously and I do often tend to over-worry about things (Damn my mother to hell for passing down that gene).

Still, isn't anyone the slightest bit concerned? Am I really that off-base?
I'll join you on hyperbole drive.

Between Russia and China right now Im seeing a new world order asserting itself.

History will remember right now.
post #10 of 113
Oh, thank god. We're good at fighting industrialized nation-states. Finally, the good ol' USA can get back to its core skill set.
post #11 of 113
Our armies are a little busy right now. I wonder if Russia would mind putting this off until Iraqi democracy is on its feet.
post #12 of 113
Aw, hell. We can stop Russia with air power. It's about time the Air Force started working for a living, anyway.
post #13 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
Our armies are a little busy right now.
On a serious note, I think you're exactly right. Russia knows that the US, while strong on paper, is functionally weak due to our current overextension. Russia sees this as the time to strike.

I'm interested to see what effect this will have on the EU's willingness to depend on Russia for its oil and natural gas supply. For years, the EU has operated under the assumption that Russia is now friendly. Now, member states may be beginning to see the tangible cost of crossing this "friendly" nation.
post #14 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
Our armies are a little busy right now. I wonder if Russia would mind putting this off until Iraqi democracy is on its feet.
Damn! It's like getting invited to a pool party and you can't find your trunks. Now where the heck were they...
post #15 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
Oh yeah, Gregory?

What are you gonna do about this international problem?
Will reading, thinking, worrying, studying, discussing and talking about Russia, Georgia, and America's current issues do anything to sway public opinion or Putin and Bush's decisions?

My comments were referring to Jakespeare's "I haven't been this frightened" post,
and I wanted to say that current events and world affairs might "concern" or "interest" me,
but I'm not going to let them ruin my day by being scared about it.
post #16 of 113
Now you see, the idea of a Nuclear Holocaust terrifies the fuck out of me. So I'm with Jake there.
post #17 of 113
Well sure, Nuclear Holocaust is a scary thing,
but I don't think it's going to happen any more than it happened in the 60's.

My position is not a "I can't make a difference" position,
I think all the reasonable things should be worried about (recycling, protests, running naked on the Oscars)...I just don't want to jump the gun on Soviet Terror. Especially if this is the beginning of Cold War V2. I'd hate to get burn't out and blow my War-Worry at the start of another decade-or-more long fiasco.
post #18 of 113
The US and Russia are in bed together on a lot of things, right now. My father was telling me that Russia had Bush's blessing for invading Georgia. Since he knows a lot of powerful people in Russia, and Bush's action this week do not counter act, what he told me. I kind of have to go along with the possibility that is is true. Bush really did nothing about it. He was at the games, when this started. It would have been the perfect place to get a fast and easy coalition going to help Georgie. What surprises me the most about Georgia is the seeming lack of a Chinese response.

That is not to say that Russia is not trying to get back their former power. It just mean the US is looking the other way, for political reasons. Look at a couple of facts. One Chine is a threat too both Russia and the US. Chine is a bigger threat to the Russians, then the US right now. Second Muslims are a problem to all three powers and The UE right now.

There are two possibilities for the US letting Russia invade Georgia. One is Iran, Iran is a big problem right now to both countries. There may have been some back room deals going on, about Iran, and this was Russia's price for latter helping with Iran. Second is Armenia. Armenia is the only 'Christian' nation in the regain, and is friendly to both Russia and the US. Armenia wants a sea port, and that mean getting it from either Turkey or Georgia, most likely Turkey. Russia and the US may just be playing Good cop bad cop here.
post #19 of 113
Eenin, Georgia invaded South Ossetia first, and Russia's response was a given. Whatever forces are working behind the scenes of this skirmish want the perception of a Cold War, but in fact, NoahtheStud's analogy in the other thread is correct. Russia's actions against Georgia are much more akin to Gulf War I than Gulf War II.
post #20 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew C View Post

Don't worry, guys, I got this one covered.
Whew, close one.
post #21 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
Eenin, Georgia invaded South Ossetia first, and Russia's response was a given. Whatever forces are working behind the scenes of this skirmish want the perception of a Cold War, but in fact, NoahtheStud's analogy in the other thread is correct. Russia's actions against Georgia are much more akin to Gulf War I than Gulf War II.
al I am saying is there is more going on here then meet the eye. it just does not all add up.
post #22 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankCobretti View Post
Aw, hell. We can stop Russia with air power. It's about time the Air Force started working for a living, anyway.
Hey there, mister Vested Interest! :P
post #23 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankCobretti View Post
It's about time the Air Force started working for a living, anyway.
Time to earn that paycheck.
post #24 of 113
Does anybody really want another war, cold or hot? [Other than the defense industry, of course].
post #25 of 113
Isn't it the defense industry that decides anyway?
post #26 of 113
I want a lukewarm war.
post #27 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca S. View Post
Isn't it the defense industry that decides anyway?
Isn't defense industry making enough money from Iraq yet?
post #28 of 113
Hmmmmm......

Something doesn't add up.....

Watchmen is finally getting made and it's set during the Cold War.

Red Dawn is getting remade and how convenient the old bad guys are back.

I see a Hollywood conspiracy myself. On a serious note, this sucks. I thought we were beyond this now. Scary times.
post #29 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamotv View Post
Hmmmmm......

Something doesn't add up.....

Watchmen is finally getting made and it's set during the Cold War.

Red Dawn is getting remade and how convenient the old bad guys are back.

I see a Hollywood conspiracy myself. On a serious note, this sucks. I thought we were beyond this now. Scary times.

I don't see a conspiracy myself. I just don't think we have all the facts yet. there are more then two players in the world right now unlike back in the old Cold war days.
post #30 of 113
You're talking about backroom dealings done in secret. Sounds like a conspiracy to me.
post #31 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankCobretti View Post
On a serious note, I think you're exactly right. Russia knows that the US, while strong on paper, is functionally weak due to our current overextension. Russia sees this as the time to strike.

I'm interested to see what effect this will have on the EU's willingness to depend on Russia for its oil and natural gas supply. For years, the EU has operated under the assumption that Russia is now friendly. Now, member states may be beginning to see the tangible cost of crossing this "friendly" nation.
The U.S. pushing to put missiles in their backyard and encircling it with NATO expansion in its former Republics has nothing to do with it at all?


The only question in all this is if it's organic or reactionary on Russia's part.
post #32 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
You're talking about backroom dealings done in secret. Sounds like a conspiracy to me.
Okay maybe it is.
post #33 of 113
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
Eenin, Georgia invaded South Ossetia first, and Russia's response was a given. Whatever forces are working behind the scenes of this skirmish want the perception of a Cold War, but in fact, NoahtheStud's analogy in the other thread is correct. Russia's actions against Georgia are much more akin to Gulf War I than Gulf War II.
Russia is the aggressor here, essentially antagonizing Georgia into striking. They've been massing troops on the Georgian border for a long time now and probably gave the S. Ossetians citizenship to help get a Falklands-style reason for invasion. Losing so many of their satellite nations and chunks of the USSR after the end of the Cold War was a major blow to Russian morale after being told for generations that they were a limitlessly powerful nation and that ethnic Russians are superior to their neighbors (a mentality pushed since the Stalin era). People have been talking over there for years and years now about starting to re-expand their borders, just as a way of nursing their bruised ego, and Putin's just the kind of guy to do it. In case none of you have heard of this stuff before:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings
post #34 of 113
Never mind "Cold War 2.0" what about World War 3.0?

I've been listeining to a lecture series on WW I and there are a lot of parallels between the world then and now. You had a bunch of terorists running around (radical nationalists, anarchists and Socialists then, Islamic radicals and the occasional right wing Christian now), a series of interlocking alliances that can set off a chain reaction among great pwoers (Triple Alliance and Entente then, NATO and Russia/China and lets throw in Iran for shits and giggles now), and most improtant, the perception that a war can be won with superior technology quickly with minimal losses (See the machine gun, poison gas then and nuclear weapons and Bush's version of Star Wars now)

I think there are a lot of reasons to fear for the future...
post #35 of 113
Thread Starter 
I've been making the WW1 analogy for a long time now, and yes it is scarily similar.
post #36 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormin View Post
Russia is the aggressor here, essentially antagonizing Georgia into striking. They've been massing troops on the Georgian border for a long time now and probably gave the S. Ossetians citizenship to help get a Falklands-style reason for invasion. Losing so many of their satellite nations and chunks of the USSR after the end of the Cold War was a major blow to Russian morale after being told for generations that they were a limitlessly powerful nation and that ethnic Russians are superior to their neighbors (a mentality pushed since the Stalin era). People have been talking over there for years and years now about starting to re-expand their borders, just as a way of nursing their bruised ego, and Putin's just the kind of guy to do it. In case none of you have heard of this stuff before:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings
That all sounds tidy but none of this is happening in a vacuum. Georgia fired the first shot, preceded by visits from Condoleeza Rice and none other than Karl Rove. The Prezeldent is sitting next to Putin at the friggin' Olympics as tanks are rolling across borders.

The question isn't are these politicians maneuvering towards some sort of prolonged hostility and escalation of military buildup; the question is: how is it in our -- meaning we the people -- best interest as a people, as a nation, to play this game at all.
post #37 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
I don't see a conspiracy myself. I just don't think we have all the facts yet. there are more then two players in the world right now unlike back in the old Cold war days.
I was joking with the Red Dawn remake thing. Although they can just remake the original script if this keeps up.
post #38 of 113
Quote:
Georgia fired the first shot, preceded by visits from Condoleeza Rice and none other than Karl Rove.
Seriously, that's suspicious like a known child molester hanging around an elementary school naked with a bag of Tootsie Rolls.
post #39 of 113
Putin's just flexing his Prime Minister muscle for his minions to prove he's still got pull and power in the world. Nothing to worry about, unless you're in Europe.
post #40 of 113
There wasn't a Cold War to begin with. And every generation has its own fears. I use at least the latter point for comfort. Which isn't to say we shouldn't care about these issues. Just that conspiracies are false until proven true, at which point they aren't conspiracies anymore. Spouting conspiracy babble on a topic like this indicates you lack an opinion or motivation to try to understand why the human race is fucked...to the conspiracy nut there must be back-door dealings to elude people, as if we aren't even a smidgen responsible for our governments. Not that I'm doing anything myself...
post #41 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
Does anybody really want another war, cold or hot? [Other than the defense industry, of course].
Of course not. War is bad for business.
post #42 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankCobretti View Post
Of course not. War is bad for business.
Since that highly depends on the nature of the business in question,I'd dare say that certain people want another war.
post #43 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreary louse
I want a lukewarm war.
Well, how many poor central and southern Asian countries are you willing to invade?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
Never mind "Cold War 2.0" what about World War 3.0?

I've been listeining to a lecture series on WW I and there are a lot of parallels between the world then and now. You had a bunch of terorists running around (radical nationalists, anarchists and Socialists then, Islamic radicals and the occasional right wing Christian now), a series of interlocking alliances that can set off a chain reaction among great pwoers (Triple Alliance and Entente then, NATO and Russia/China and lets throw in Iran for shits and giggles now), and most improtant, the perception that a war can be won with superior technology quickly with minimal losses (See the machine gun, poison gas then and nuclear weapons and Bush's version of Star Wars now)

I think there are a lot of reasons to fear for the future...
Wrt Iran, don't forget Israel; there's also India to be thought of, though they've been put on the backburner in these discussions, and when you bring up India you almost have to consider Pakistan as well, who've been having internal political problems of late. On the surface, at least, more people are holding the matches than in the Cold War - I guess we've just got to hope that no one is stupid enough to set the keg off.
post #44 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
Putin's just flexing his Prime Minister muscle for his minions to prove he's still got pull and power in the world. Nothing to worry about, unless you're in Europe.
Well, it's official: we're doomed.
post #45 of 113
That's strange. All those Americans worrying about what the Russians will do to us poor Europeans and yet we don't feel threatened.

Not a bit.
post #46 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastronikolas View Post
That's strange. All those Americans worrying about what the Russians will do to us poor Europeans and yet we don't feel threatened.

Not a bit.
Cause we know the USA are coming to save us ! Well, if they get some offshore drilling permits in the north sea.
post #47 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nibblonian View Post
Well, how many poor central and southern Asian countries are you willing to invade?

Wrt Iran, don't forget Israel; there's also India to be thought of, though they've been put on the backburner in these discussions, and when you bring up India you almost have to consider Pakistan as well, who've been having internal political problems of late. On the surface, at least, more people are holding the matches than in the Cold War - I guess we've just got to hope that no one is stupid enough to set the keg off.
Yes there is a whole powder keg with India, Pakistan, Russia and China. India and China in particular share some of the aggressiveness and arrogance that Germany displayed in the early 20th century...it just has not displayed itself militarily as of yet.
post #48 of 113
post #49 of 113
I know some of you see WWI looks here, but I see pre-Napoleonic Europe forming at the moment.

Since the beginning of the 21st century 3 (maybe 4) of the Great Powers have basically without the tactically consent of the others gone to war without causing a major global conflict.

At this moment none of the Great Powers are willing to act to stop any of the other from doing what they want till it's too late...or they have already done what they wanted in conflict.

This should make everyone very afraid.
post #50 of 113
Something is lost in not being able to call them Soviets. So we need to rectify that somehow if we're going to capture the full Cold War experience.

I'm not exactly thrilled with what's going on, but I'm going to reserve full blown panic for when Stalin's reanimated corpse rips the head off of the Lincoln Memorial on live TV.
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