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Cape Fear vs. Cape Fear

post #1 of 68
8/17/08 at 12:34am
Thread Starter 
For some reason I ended up seeing both of these recently. There's the 1962 one with Robert Mitchum vs. Gregory Peck, and the 1991 one with Robert De Niro vs. Nick Nolte.

The 1962 version kinda sucks. Mitchum's pretty good, and has several hilarious topless scenes that I can't tell if they're meant to be sensually arousing or not, but Peck is a complete washout. This guy was a superstar?

The 1991 version is wonderful. It might be my favourite Scorsese movie. It's over-the-top, which idiots often mistake for "stupid", and pushes most of the right buttons. And the part with De Niro attending a theatre and loudly laughing at "Problem Child" is still an indelible image.

But guess which one has the higher IMDb score. Bullshit.
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post #2 of 68
8/17/08 at 12:40am
I kind of like them both for wildly different reasons, the original has a far better cast but I think Scorcese makes the remake really visually interesting at times. My problem with the remake stems from the fact that Nick Nolte almost seems as psychotic as Cady at times.
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post #3 of 68
8/17/08 at 12:43am
Thread Starter 
Scorsese is trying to make it DARK and REALISTIC by showing that the innocent victims are not so innocent as they appear! Behind Nolte's everyman ice-cream-eating and squash-playing lies a soul of shadow.

Whatever the outcome, he's a whole lot more interesting that Gregory Peck.
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post #4 of 68
8/17/08 at 12:46am
You see I'd rather take a measured performance than a 'wacky' partial breakdown. But then again I'm trying to debate the merits of a film with a person I'm still convinced only enjoys the medium to mock it.

Which isn't to say that Scorcese's vision is a wrong one, having the Bowden's be on the edge of destruction anyways is an interesting take, it just sort of robs Cady of a lot of his menace and they have to supplant it with the sheer physicality of DeNiro.
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post #5 of 68
8/17/08 at 12:46am
I like when those guys ambush Max in the parking lot and before they do it one yells out, "OH, MAX!"

*cut to Nolte standing out in the open watching and sensually smoking a cigarette*
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post #6 of 68
8/17/08 at 12:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul McCartney View Post
Whatever the outcome, he's a whole lot more interesting that Gregory Peck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devin
Hey, look, it's the cancer that's killing the boards.
....
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post #7 of 68
8/17/08 at 12:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul McCartney View Post
Whatever the outcome, he's a whole lot more interesting that Gregory Peck.

Bullshit. Peck is throwing out all kinds of subtle menace in that movie. He's bursting at the seams to go caveman on Mitchum. It's a great performance, just not as flashy as the Max Cady role.
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post #8 of 68
8/17/08 at 12:50am
Oh look they're both here. Why don't you make some wacky jokes about the score.

*Tense string led stalking music*
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post #9 of 68
8/17/08 at 12:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rath
Originally Posted by Devin
Hey, look, it's the cancer that's killing the boards.
It's like you've been waiting to spring that one, and got tired of waiting for an actual appropriate opportunity. Cheers on your flexibility and pragmatism?
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post #10 of 68
8/17/08 at 12:51am
Also a fan of the animal noises and heavy breathing that Nolte does when he fights Cady at the end. To represent how he has become a psycho as well!
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post #11 of 68
8/17/08 at 12:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
It's like you've been waiting to spring that one, and got tired of waiting for an actual appropriate opportunity. Cheers on your flexibility and pragmatism?
To be honest there's never an inappropriate point to spring that quote.
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post #12 of 68
8/17/08 at 12:55am
Joe Don Baker I find outstanding in this as well. When he offers to take Nolte out into the woods to shoot at some trees, you can see the disappointment in his eyes when Nolte politely declines. Keep an eye out for Death Wish 3's Martin "Bennett" Balsam as the judge who quotes the great "negro" Booker T. Washington.
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post #13 of 68
8/17/08 at 12:59am
Thread Starter 
GRUBER YOU HAVE RUINED MY THREAD WITH YOUR CALLOUS JOKES

Joe Don Baker is another advantage the remake has over the original. He makes a good has-been PI, and the moment where he gets taken out by De Niro while he's in Mexican Housekeeper Format is one of my favourite bits in the movie, and gave me a real jolt. In the original, the PI is played by Telly Savalas, who is notable only in that he has hair.

Seriously, the remake takes everything about the original and pumps it up to a ridiculous degree.
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post #14 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:00am
Back when McCartney was getting a beating on the Bond thread, he came back with something like "Fine, let's all just sit around and agree how great Goldfinger is!" And he had a point. I don't want to sit here and type in agreement with dozens of other people. Why not air out different points of view? Are we that insecure? This is no different than Devin's interpretive reading of Wall*E. Which also was attacked. People are so fucking scared to come at anything from another angle.

I've often said McCartney has awful taste. But why is what he gets out of filmed entertainment any less valid? I'll take his reviews of stupid Tony Curtis shit over a bunch of film students making the same points over and over, or snidely sniffling that they could have done better.
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post #15 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:00am
Its a great line too when Joe Don Baker gets it!

"You like? I learnt that in prison... white trash piece of shit heheheh"
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post #16 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:03am
Goldfinger is pretty good.
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post #17 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:04am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Why not air out different points of view? Are we that insecure? This is no different than Devin's interpretive reading of Wall*E. Which also was attacked. People are so fucking scared to come at anything from another angle.
Phil, you are a prince. What's so controversial about this thread anyway? That I didn't like Gregory Peck much? That just means that maybe I need to check out some more Gregory Peck stuff. Keith Fordyce's post interested me, and made me want to check out the movie again with a new P.O.V. But I returned it to the video shop because I hate cinema, so I can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
stupid Tony Curtis shit
WHATTT?????
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post #18 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:07am
The original Cape Fear was directed by J. Lee Thompson, the visionary behind:

Conquest of the Planet of the Apes
Battle for the Plane of the Apes
10 To Midnight
Death Wish 3

Discuss.
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post #19 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:08am
I like Paul.

(Even though Spike is probably right in his suspicion)

Love both movies; appreciate the different tones. If you really feel that way about Peck, Paul you're not trying hard enough. Dig what Nolte was doing too. The moral ambiguity adds an extra layer.
(Fun tidbit, director of the original wanted Haley Mills for the daughter role-thought she had the needed sexual presence-What a perv!)
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post #20 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:08am
I love all those movies, except Michael Winner directed part 3, while J. Lee directed part 4: The Crackdown.
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post #21 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post

I've often said McCartney has awful taste. But why is what he gets out of filmed entertainment any less valid? I'll take his reviews of stupid Tony Curtis shit over a bunch of film students making the same points over and over, or snidely sniffling that they could have done better.

I don't give a shit that he has awful taste. He just exemplifies the 'open mic night' feel that the board has taken on. He might have unique views on film, but his unique view is that film is just something to be ripped apart. As an avante garde artist his works are fascinating, but there's only so many times you can read someone revelling in movie mistakes and missteps.
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post #22 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:10am
Thompson was also the auteur behind Kinjite.

It's no secret, I love 10 to Midnight. I was just pimping that in the COP thread. Such a sleazy good time, with Bronson the crookedest moral center ever.

EDIT: Some of you people think way too much about the happenings on a fucking internet message board. Grab some perspective.
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post #23 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
The original Cape Fear was directed by J. Lee Thompson, the visionary behind:

Conquest of the Planet of the Apes
Battle for the Plane of the Apes
10 To Midnight
Death Wish 3

Discuss.
And yet somehow he made a better film than Scorcese. Admittedly it's Scorcese doing it for the studios to try and get himself some leeway.
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post #24 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:13am
Molester: You'll be hearing from me again!

Bronson: NOOOOO WEEEE WONNNNN'T

THE END!
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post #25 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post
I don't give a shit that he has awful taste. He just exemplifies the 'open mic night' feel that the board has taken on. He might have unique views on film, but his unique view is that film is just something to be ripped apart. As an avante garde artist his works are fascinating, but there's only so many times you can read someone revelling in movie mistakes and missteps.
This. Look, I've said some deeply idiotic things on the boards, but my problem was that there wasn't any thought put into what he was saying. Okay, you don't like Gregory Peck. Why? I'll probably stick around the boards for a while, because my job sucks and this is the only place I can intelligently talk about movies (aside from the Criterion boards, because those fuckers are scary), but it annoys me when people say things "just to be controversial." Maybe because I've been there, and there's a little butt hurt going on. But it was a pattern with Paul, and I got all Howard Beale.

And for what it's worth, I, too, love the Scorsese Cape Fear. It makes a great double feature with Casino.
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post #26 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:16am
Thread Starter 
One thing I loved about the original that I probably shouldn't bring up because it isn't serious enough:

This exemplifies the style of hand-to-hand combat you only ever see in creaky old black and white movies. Where two guys just stand in front of each other, punching each other full in the face, with no variation, and with no pain registered by either combatant. Back then, men were men.
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post #27 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
Okay, you don't like Gregory Peck. Why?
Putting aside all of Peck's layers of aggression I apparently didn't pick up on, he seemed bland. The upstanding saint who does everything right and seems to have no emotions whatsoever, and is only in the movie so the colourful bad guy has someone to fight.

I usually don't mind upstanding do-gooder heroes, but they need something to them. Like Christopher Reeve as Superman. See, Superman is a bland nerd too, but Reeve had enough of a sense of humour to make it fun to watch.
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post #28 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:24am
Holy Shit, he can actually form critical thought.

The problem with comparing the Cape Fears in that sense is that you have both conflicting time periods and directorial intent to deal with. Scorcese is a director who has always shyed away from the heroic ideal for characters and you can almost view his work on the film as a deconstruction of the American family ideal.

The thing with Peck and Nolte is that they are playing the same kind of character, it's just that Peck has managed to bottle all of that rage and psychosis a lot better than Nolte has. But you can see the vague sense of satisfaction towards the end.
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post #29 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:30am
The original film takes solid performers and through them raises a kinda B picture up a few notches toward something more meaningful. The remake takes a total A list creative team and makes a cartoon out of the original film. Yes, it's more layered, but it's about ten times more broad in its execution.
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post #30 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:33am
So because a fantastic director and set of actors effectively 'spoof' a film it's ultimately a greater piece of cinema? To me Cape Fear 92 represents a director utterly disinterested with his material who just decides to go off on tangents to try and keep himself interested.
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post #31 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:36am
I prefer the original. Not sure where I said the remake was a great piece of cinema...
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post #32 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:45am
I can't believe there is besmirching of Peck here. I watched both back to back as well. Both movies are good though I think 91 is one of Scorsese's most dated movies.
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post #33 of 68
8/17/08 at 1:55am
Phil pretty much nailed it. The remake is just the amped up, ultimate B potboiler. But for all the nth degree shenanigans Scorsese is pulling, he's strangely very faithful to the original.
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post #34 of 68
8/17/08 at 4:00am
"Counselor, come out, come out where ever you are!"

Yeah, I friggin' love the remake, and I've seen it several times, and own the 2 disc dvd of it. Joe Don Baker is tops as well, and Nolte and De Niro are on a whole other level of acting. They're both awesome.
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post #35 of 68
8/17/08 at 4:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Fordyce View Post
Phil pretty much nailed it. The remake is just the amped up, ultimate B potboiler. But for all the nth degree shenanigans Scorsese is pulling, he's strangely very faithful to the original.
Funny that, considering Scorsese had Elmer Bernstein faithfully recreate the original score, it's a damn good score.
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post #36 of 68
8/17/08 at 5:33pm
Robert Mitchum is fucking terrifying. Even when he's making out with Juliette Lewis, De Niro is too charismatic an actor to really make me queasy. Robert Mitchum, on the other hand, looks entirely capable of raping one's wife AND daughter. De Niro plays all sorts of head games, which are cool, but Mitchum's got rape on his mind, and it's incredibly frightening to watch, ESPECIALLY because Peck's character is a lot more "decent" and "good" than Nolte's character.

But on the other hand, that reveal of De Niro dressed as the maid, murdering the hell out of Joe Don Baker is one of those gloriously pulpy moments that makes Scorsese's film so damned fun to watch.
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post #37 of 68
8/17/08 at 6:05pm
Paul, if you're interested in having your mind changed about Gregory Peck, watch On The Beach and Gentleman's Agreement. The man could act. A lot of people will recommend To Kill a Mockingbird for that purpose, and it is a great movie, but he's really more of a pillar of virtue in that than a real human being, so it wouldn't really change your mind.

And I agree with Phil. I rarely agree with McCartney, but he does open up discussions, which is what we're supposed to do around here.

Hans Gruber I can do without. He's the Dane Cook of the boards.
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post #38 of 68
8/17/08 at 8:01pm
I liked both versions, and this non-sense about Peck being a do-gooder in the original? It doesn't fly with me. I mean, if I remember correctly(its been awhile), didn't he hire some thugs to try and kill Cady? Not something a "do-gooder" would do, right? The original dipped into the grey zone enough despite the content restrictions of it's day.

Peck being repulsed thinking he had to resort to such measures is why his performance is just as strong as Mitchum's.

Wasn't Peck a sleazy lawyer in the remake? That kind of subversion is why Scorsese's remake is interesting. Scorsese was allowed to swim in deeper waters, and for better or worse, he came up with an interesting film.
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post #39 of 68
8/17/08 at 9:50pm
'91 Cape Fear featured the best stammering of Nick Nolte's career. Plus it had some great quick-cuts.
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post #40 of 68
3/20/10 at 9:11pm
Wow, I was a complete cunt in this thread. Apologies.

I kind of dig how weird and technicolour the Scorcese Cape Fear is. It's major failing for me is Juliette Lewis who just plays Danielle as being utterly retarded.
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post #41 of 68
3/20/10 at 9:42pm
The problem with Scorcese's film is that the element of basic human fear is not there. It's played as if DeNiro is an avenging angel of doom there to punish Nolte for his sins. That's not easy to relate to.

In the original, Peck has simply done his duty as a good citizen in helping to put away a criminal, and is being punished for his trouble. It's a simple, basic premise that's frightening because it feels like it could happen. Scorcese's decision to go for grand, gothic, sweeping drama robs the idea of its basic power.
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post #42 of 68
3/20/10 at 10:16pm
It also doesn't help that DeNiro literally spends the last twenty five minutes dying in increasingly outlandish ways. By the time he's been burnt, drowned, burnt again, beaten, hit with rocks, drowned again he sort of trips the line from determined to being Will E Coyote.
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post #43 of 68
3/20/10 at 10:58pm
That's definitely part of what contributes to the "supernatural avenger" aspect of his character. And it actually makes him less intimidating.
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post #44 of 68
3/21/10 at 12:15am
Thread Starter 
I should mention that, since this thread, I have seen precisely ONE Gregory Peck movie. It was THE GUNS OF NAVARONE, and he was sensational in it.

Not as sensational as the bit in CAPE FEAR '91 where De Niro speaks in "tongues" while being dragged to his watery grave, but still pretty sensational.
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post #45 of 68
3/21/10 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul McCartney View Post
I should mention that, since this thread, I have seen precisely ONE Gregory Peck movie. It was THE GUNS OF NAVARONE, and he was sensational in it.

Not as sensational as the bit in CAPE FEAR '91 where De Niro speaks in "tongues" while being dragged to his watery grave, but still pretty sensational.
There are a lot of great Peck films. Some of them even with your lack of taste you should really like.

you might like these Peck films
The Boys from Brazil
Pork Chop Hill
The Big Country
The Snows of Kilimanjaro
Duel in the Sun

stay away from these, as they will just go over your head.
To Kill a Mockingbird
Moby Dick
The Yearling
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post #46 of 68
3/21/10 at 5:57pm
Gentleman's Agreement and On the Beach.
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post #47 of 68
3/21/10 at 6:36pm
Boys From Brazil is essential Peck. One of the few (only?) times he's played a villain. And he's tremendous.

...

About the subject of this thread. I definitely prefer the remake. The original is, like Phil said, a pulp B movie elevated by two great leads. It feels to me a bit like a Hitchcock imitation. And not a particularly good one.

It may be true that the material is "beneath" Scorsese and he goes all out to keep himself interested. But that results in one of his most interesting films, in my opinion. He has started dabbling more and more in attempts at "studio filmmaking" in recent years, and he had done it once before with The Color Of Money, but this was the one time that I think he consciously just said: Let me put my imprint on what is, essentially, a Freddy Krueger movie.

I think it's a phenomenally entertaining picture because of that.
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post #48 of 68
3/21/10 at 7:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erix View Post
I definitely prefer the remake. The original is, like Phil said, a pulp B movie elevated by two great leads. It feels to me a bit like a Hitchcock imitation. And not a particularly good one.
And this description isn't true of the remake because...?
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post #49 of 68
3/21/10 at 7:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
And this description isn't true of the remake because...?
Because it's a remake...

I know that sounds spurious. But what I mean is, Scorsese is well aware of what the movie is and he goes all out with it. Consciously making an uber B Movie and paying affectionate tribute to the pulp thrillers of the 60s.

J. Lee Thompson thought he was making a Hitchcock film. And it just isn't very interesting. Mitchum is fantastic, yes. And, although it's less graphic, the rape scene with Polly Bergen comes off as far stronger and more fucked up than in the remake.

But, other than that, I still prefer Scorsese's version.
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post #50 of 68
3/21/10 at 7:40pm
I think it's a little presumptuous to claim to know what Thompson "thought" he was making. We can only judge the product, not the intent.
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