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What liberal media?

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Washington Monthly
The latest piece from Ron Fournier, the AP's Washington bureau chief and the man responsible for directing the wire service's coverage of the presidential campaign, on Joe Biden joining the Democratic ticket, is drawing a fair amount of attention this morning. More importantly, McCain campaign staffers are pushing it fairly aggressively to other reporters, in large part because it mirrors the Republican line with minimal variation. By choosing Biden, Fournier argues, Barack Obama is showing a "lack of confidence," and is siding with "the status quo."

There are two ways to consider Fournier's piece: substantively and in the broader context.

First, on the substance, Fournier's analysis seems a little lazy. By his logic, any potential running mate shows a "lack of confidence" -- picking Hillary would mean Obama lacked confidence in his ability to win over women voters; picking Bayh would mean Obama lacked confidence in his ability to win over independents and conservative Dems; picking Webb would mean Obama lacked confidence in his ability to win over voters concerned about national security; picking Kaine would mean Obama lacked confidence in his ability to win over voters in the South; etc. For that matter, "the status quo" in Washington has been conservative Republican rule. Biden may be an old pro and a DC insider, but he's anything but "the status quo."

Second, in context, Fournier's objectivity covering the presidential race continues to look shaky. We are, after all, talking about a journalist who, as recently as last year, considered working for the McCain campaign.

Before Ron Fournier returned to The Associated Press in March 2007, the veteran political reporter had another professional suitor: John McCain's presidential campaign.

In October 2006, the McCain team approached Fournier about joining the fledgling operation, according to a source with knowledge of the talks. In the months that followed, said a source, Fournier spoke about the job possibility with members of McCain's inner circle, including political aides Mark Salter, John Weaver and Rick Davis.

We learned not too long ago that Fournier exchanged emails with Karl Rove about Pat Tillman, in which Fournier wrote, "The Lord creates men and women like this all over the world. But only the great and free countries allow them to flourish. Keep up the fight." Fournier was also one of the journalists who, at a gathering of the nation's newspaper editors, extended McCain a box of his favorite donuts ("Oh, yes, with sprinkles!" McCain said).

It's led to a series of AP reports that can, at best, be described as "questionable."

In March, for example, Fournier wrote an item -- whether it was a news article or an opinion piece was unclear -- that said Barack Obama is "bordering on arrogance," "a bit too cocky," and that the senator and his wife "ooze a sense of entitlement." To substantiate the criticism, Fournier pointed to ... not a whole lot. It was basically the Republicans' "uppity" talking point in the form of an AP article.
But much of the AP's coverage has deteriorated since. There was a slam-job on Obama that read like an RNC oppo dump, followed by a scathing, 900-word reprimand of Obama's decision to bypass the public financing system in the general election, filled with errors of fact and judgment.

When Obama unveiled his faith-based plan, the AP got the story backwards. When Obama talked about his Iraq policy on July 3, the AP said he'd "opened the door" to reversing course, even though he hadn't.

The AP's David Espo wrote a hagiographic, 1,200-word piece, praising McCain's "singular brand of combative bipartisanship," which was utterly ridiculous.

The AP pushed the objectivity envelope a little further with a mind-numbing, 1,100-word piece on Obama "being shadowed by giant flip-flops."

The AP flubbed the story on McCain joking about killing Iranians, and then flubbed the story about McCain's promise to eliminate the deficit. It's part of a very discouraging trend for the AP that's been ongoing throughout the campaign.

And then, within hours of Obama announcing his running mate, there's Fournier again, writing up another piece -- whether it's a news article or an opinion piece is, again, unclear -- that the McCain campaign just loves.

Sandy Johnson, the former DC bureau chief of the AP, was asked about Fournier and the bureau when she was forced out as part of a staff shake-up. "I just hope he doesn't destroy it," she said.

The more I see the AP's coverage, the more I think about that quote.
I'm not gonna sit here and ascribe motive to Fournier, even though he's been professionally linked with Rove and McCain. But the reporting stands on its own, and in that realm I have to wonder (not why but) how the AP, which is supposed to have credibility beyond the usual cable news talking-head pundits, could be so sloppy and unprofessional. Some of the stuff just doesn't even pass the standards of Journalism 101. If the AP can't even keep things straight, I don't have much faith in the rest of the MSM.
post #2 of 23
Pop Zeus = Moveon.org puppet?

edit forgot the question mark.
post #3 of 23
It is easier to call Zeus a puppet than to defend Fournier, isn't it?
post #4 of 23
Only a partsian idiot would buy into this attack on Fournier. Obama's the one that set his narrative as an agent of change and that Washington is broken.

Considering, I believe, Zeus was one of the people that said you couldn't have Clinton as Obama's VP because she wouldn't fit with his 'change' message that he needed someone outside of Washington this comes off as extremely partisan and weak. Look back around May \ June in the Presidental thread.

edit --

OK, I am wrong about Zeus. I looked back and found this. I'm still holding my ground that Fournier is just calling out facts but obviously, Zeus is not just buying into partisanship and I apologize.

Quote:
Clinton as VP has some ups and downs. She can play the role of attack dog fairly well, as we've all seen. She brings along a small portion of voters that Obama can't necessarily win over. Certainly makes places like PA, OH, FL more competitive against McCain. And she can help with arcane policy issues once in office, but that's about it.

I don't think Obama's theme of change will be all that much of a problem for Clinton to overcome. And I think Obama can win many of her voters, assuming she doesn't continue to make wild accusations about Obama. The thing that kills it for her is that inability to cede control of the Democratic party over to Obama. I don't get the sense that after being at the top for so long, that the Clintons are even capable of being disciplined soldiers for this guy.
post #5 of 23
For the record, here's the piece. It's not just a recitation of fact, it is also clearly dubbed "analysis."

Quote:
DENVER – The candidate of change went with the status quo.

In picking Sen. Joe Biden to be his running mate, Barack Obama sought to shore up his weakness — inexperience in office and on foreign policy — rather than underscore his strength as a new-generation candidate defying political conventions.

He picked a 35-year veteran of the Senate — the ultimate insider — rather than a candidate from outside Washington, such as Govs. Tim Kaine of Virginia or Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas; or from outside his party, such as Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska; or from outside the mostly white male club of vice presidential candidates. Hillary Rodham Clinton didn't even make his short list.

The picks say something profound about Obama: For all his self-confidence, the 47-year-old Illinois senator worried that he couldn't beat Republican John McCain without help from a seasoned politician willing to attack. The Biden pick is the next logistical step in an Obama campaign that has become more negative — a strategic decision that may be necessary but threatens to run counter to his image.

Democratic strategists, fretting over polls that showed McCain erasing Obama's lead this summer, welcomed the move. They, too, worried that Obama needed a more conventional — read: tougher — approach to McCain.

"You've got to hand it to the candidate and the campaign. They have a great sense of timing and tone and appropriateness. Six months ago, people said he wasn't tough enough on Hillary Clinton — he was being too passive — but he got it right at the right time," said Democratic strategist Jim Jordan. "He'll get it right again."

Indeed, Obama has begun to aggressively counter McCain's criticism with negative television ads and sharp retorts from the campaign trail.

A senior Obama adviser, speaking on condition of anonymity, said his boss has expressed impatience with what he calls a "reverence" inside his campaign for his message of change and new politics. In other words, Obama is willing — even eager — to risk what got him this far if it gets him to the White House.

Biden brings a lot to the table. An expert on national security, the Delaware senator voted in 2002 to authorize military intervention in Iraq but has since become a vocal critic of the conflict. He won praise for a plan for peace in Iraq that would divide the country along ethnic lines.

Chief sponsor of a sweeping anti-crime bill that passed in 1994, Biden could help inoculate Obama from GOP criticism that he's soft on crime — a charge his campaign fears will drive a wedge between white voters and the first black candidate with a serious shot at the White House.

So the question is whether Biden's depth counters Obama's inexperience — or highlights it?

After all, Biden is anything but a change agent, having been in office longer than half of all Americans have been alive. Longer than McCain.

And he talks too much.

On the same day he announced his second bid for the presidency, Biden found himself explaining why he had described Obama as "clean."

And there's the 2007 ABC interview in which Biden said he would stand by an earlier statement that Obama was not ready to serve as president.

It seems Obama is worried that some voters are starting to agree.
The AP carries too much credibility to have someone with this much of a conflict of interest directing the tone of election coverage.
post #6 of 23
Snaieke

Quote:
Rove exchanged e-mails about Pat Tillman with Associated Press reporter Ron Fournier, under the subject line "H-E-R-O." In response to Mr. Fournier's e-mail, Mr. Rove asked, "How does our country continue to produce men and women like this," to which Mr. Fournier replied, "The Lord creates men and women like this all over the world. But only the great and free countries allow them to flourish. Keep up the fight."
Snaieke

Quote:
Rove exchanged e-mails about Pat Tillman with Associated Press reporter Ron Fournier, under the subject line "H-E-R-O." In response to Mr. Fournier's e-mail, Mr. Rove asked, "How does our country continue to produce men and women like this," to which Mr. Fournier replied, "The Lord creates men and women like this all over the world. But only the great and free countries allow them to flourish. Keep up the fight."
Snaieke

Quote:
Rove exchanged e-mails about Pat Tillman with Associated Press reporter Ron Fournier, under the subject line "H-E-R-O." In response to Mr. Fournier's e-mail, Mr. Rove asked, "How does our country continue to produce men and women like this," to which Mr. Fournier replied, "The Lord creates men and women like this all over the world. But only the great and free countries allow them to flourish. Keep up the fight."
post #7 of 23
The AP does opinion pieces?
post #8 of 23
No. They do "analysis."
post #9 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
Only a partsian idiot would buy into this attack on Fournier. Obama's the one that set his narrative as an agent of change and that Washington is broken.
Just copying this for future reference.
post #10 of 23
Thread Starter 
Snaieke = shoot first, asks questions when challenged.

edit forgot the period

But seriously, I suppose there's one level of pundit stupidity, as evidenced by their complicity in selling the Iraq War, but then there's this other level where journalists wear blinders to more basic shit that doesn't require a security clearance.

McCain, for a long time, was receiving much more favorable coverage than Obama. That was an objective fact at one point, although coverage is more even-handed now. I don't want to get into a discussion into why this is the case, as it's already been well-discussed. But I do think that the tilt has real world implications. Getting a handicap from the AP is huge for McCain and will do nothing but help him win.

Now I do think things are changing. The houses gaffe has legs. And running on a noun, verb and POW is not a whole lot to run for, ultimately (as opposed to against Obama.) We'll see how the press challenges McCain when he's almost baiting them to do so.
post #11 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pop Zeus View Post
McCain, for a long time, was receiving much more favorable coverage than Obama. That was an objective fact at one point, although coverage is more even-handed now. I don't want to get into a discussion into why this is the case, as it's already been well-discussed. But I do think that the tilt has real world implications. Getting a handicap from the AP is huge for McCain and will do nothing but help him win.

Now I do think things are changing. The houses gaffe has legs. And running on a noun, verb and POW is not a whole lot to run for, ultimately (as opposed to against Obama.) We'll see how the press challenges McCain when he's almost baiting them to do so.
Of course, there's Obama's 7th Time Magazine cover this year. This one subtly has the big bold words "THE NEXT PRESIDENT" next to his face.



By the way, McCain has been on the cover twice this year. And that's just Time Magazine. I haven't seen McCain getting this kind of treatment from the national magazines:



Yes, that's a Tiger Beat cover in the bottom row. I've heard criticism from the left that the press is ignoring McCain's gaffes. The press was ignoring McCain period until he started talking about Obama and running those ridiculous ads making fun of Obama's celebrity. What made the ads "newsworthy" was not who was running them; it was who they were about. The press is largely infatuated with Obama. You might find an AP reporter exchanging emails with Republican operatives. But I can turn on MSNBC and find the two men leading their "hard news" election coverage giddily talking about Obama latest speech like high school girls with a crush.

And saying McCain's entire campaign can be summed up as "noun, verb, POW" is a catchy little twist on Biden's comment about Giuliani. But it's as unfair as saying Obama's answer to everything is "Hope, change. Change, hope." These are both candidates of substance with clear distinctions between them as to where they want to take the country. Quite frankly, I'm impressed with both of them. Whoever I ultimately vote for, I won't be heartbroken if the other guy wins.
post #12 of 23
But the tone of that coverage was more negative for Obama earlier this Summer. I don't know where it stands now.
post #13 of 23
During the primaries, when he was running against Hillary. It makes sense in a way actually.

The Lexis Nexis study says Obama is covered 30% more, with the tone being about the same for both candidates.

Rush Limbaugh really popularized this "liberal media" concept, but I see the Democrats catching up to it with the same zeal as the ditto heads.
post #14 of 23
http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/co...ges/2008_6.jpg
No one bothered to show the love for Esquire Magazine?
post #15 of 23
Am I the only one here that thinks that there is nothing wrong with bias if it is open?

They accept bias in England and their democracy is just fine. In fact, the reporters give their opinions IN THE FRONT PAGE!

If your a conservative you read The London Times, if your a liberal you read The Guardian.

Why don't we just accept if your a Conservative you watch Fox and read the Wall Street Journal and if your a liberal you watch PBS and MSNBC and read the New York Times?
post #16 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvc View Post
Of course, there's Obama's 7th Time Magazine cover this year. This one subtly has the big bold words "THE NEXT PRESIDENT" next to his face.

By the way, McCain has been on the cover twice this year. And that's just Time Magazine. I haven't seen McCain getting this kind of treatment from the national magazines:

Yes, that's a Tiger Beat cover in the bottom row. I've heard criticism from the left that the press is ignoring McCain's gaffes. The press was ignoring McCain period until he started talking about Obama and running those ridiculous ads making fun of Obama's celebrity. What made the ads "newsworthy" was not who was running them; it was who they were about. The press is largely infatuated with Obama. You might find an AP reporter exchanging emails with Republican operatives. But I can turn on MSNBC and find the two men leading their "hard news" election coverage giddily talking about Obama latest speech like high school girls with a crush.

And saying McCain's entire campaign can be summed up as "noun, verb, POW" is a catchy little twist on Biden's comment about Giuliani. But it's as unfair as saying Obama's answer to everything is "Hope, change. Change, hope." These are both candidates of substance with clear distinctions between them as to where they want to take the country. Quite frankly, I'm impressed with both of them. Whoever I ultimately vote for, I won't be heartbroken if the other guy wins.
And yet, the only mag cover that anyone talked about for weeks was the New Yorker cover with Michelle in militant black fatigues and Obama in Muslim garb. Not saying that you don't have a point, but there is such a thing as too much bad press.

The pos/neg coverage numbers I was referring to took place after the primary had already determined a presumptive nominee and before McCain really started going negative. The amount of coverage was heavily tilted in favor of Obama but the tone was disproportionally negative. I don't have the specific numbers on hand, but if you're getting 2-3x more coverage but 70-5% of it is negative, that's just a lot more people hearing bad shit about you. (McCain's numbers were more like 40/60 pos/neg with less than half the coverage.)

As if it needs to be said, I'd like to make a distinction between MSNBC and the frickin' AP. One is a cable news net that speaks to a specific audience and doesn't get carried in some markets and the other is an international news org that has it's articles reprinted just about everywhere. This is little apples and oranges here, otherwise we could bring in FNC and end the conversation.

Perhaps this is best left for the '08 election thread, but I disagree with conservatives and some moderates on the issue of McCain's substance. We'll "win the war by winning"... This is McCain's substantive military strategy in Iraq? If only he could define "victory" with any specifics whatsoever. A perfect example of how McCain is bad for international relations is his bluster and chest-beating wrt Russia/Georgia. "In the 21st century, countries don't invade other countries." O rly, McCain? I think Putin would lol if he said that to his face.

On energy, a plan consisting of nuclear and offshore drilling with some lip service to renewables is not a sound substantive energy policy. Given that he's consistently voted against funding renewables (and most of the rhetoric revolves around drilling,) his finding religion on the renewable issue now is a little hollow, esp when compared to Democrats who have been talking about it and doing the research for decades. Not that he won't do some good, but he's not making the key element of his platform, which it should be if he wants to actually solve the problem.

I won't even get into his fiscal policy which is magical, when you listen to the totality of what McCain says from day to day.

Also, I sorta resent being compared to a dittohead (this is directed to you, Capitan) I have said when press coverage has been favorable to liberals and when it hasn't. Also, I don't use media bias as a scapegoat to constantly dismiss substantive arguments from the other side.
post #17 of 23
I think the study you mention was from June/July and did not include print media at all.

The New Yorker cover of course was actually a pro-Obama article that was interpreted wrong of course.
post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
The New Yorker cover of course was actually a pro-Obama article that was interpreted wrong of course.
That this was even a "question" is by far a bigger problem than a bias in either direction.
post #19 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rourkefan View Post
Am I the only one here that thinks that there is nothing wrong with bias if it is open?

They accept bias in England and their democracy is just fine. In fact, the reporters give their opinions IN THE FRONT PAGE!

If your a conservative you read The London Times, if your a liberal you read The Guardian.

Why don't we just accept if your a Conservative you watch Fox and read the Wall Street Journal and if your a liberal you watch PBS and MSNBC and read the New York Times?
Because surely then we as a society are giving up on ever reaching the other side of the argument, or even meeting in the middle?

The idea of a free press is that it has to be, by it's very nature, unbiased - or at least appear so. Its meant to be the Fourth Estate, a "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" kinda thing.

Give up on that and you not only train, but condemn the mainstream populace of a society to 'intellectual ghettoisation' if you will, where people find the news source that tells them exactly what they wish to hear over and over - probably inherited from a parent or figure of trust - and then no one ever ventures outside that news source again, skewing their worldview to the point that their ideological opposites become demonised and no one attempts to see any other position but their own.

Empathy is thrown to the wolves at this point and a society descends pretty quickly thereafter in my opinion. Frankly it's one of my main issues with the rise of specialised news sources on the internet and the monopolisation of mainstream media by so few corporate owners both in your country, mine and yes, the UK as well.
post #20 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rourkefan View Post
If your a conservative you read The London Times, if your a liberal you read The Guardian.

Why don't we just accept if your a Conservative you watch Fox and read the Wall Street Journal and if your a liberal you watch PBS and MSNBC and read the New York Times?
Thank you. I just came in here to say exactly this. Whenever I read people still bitching and moaning about Fox News, I wanna ask them how they feel about MSNBC.
post #21 of 23
But it is kind of self evident that newspapers have opinion pieces and nothing to really argue about.

Isn´t the problem in the case of the AP that it is a news agency - meaning their job is to report news for other news outlets? I reckon the problem is that the lines are really blurred in this case to put out an "analysis" that is rather blatant opinion than news? At least it poses a problem if news outlets take these at face value and don´t fact check. You know stuff that reporters are supposed to do.
post #22 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Boom View Post
Thank you. I just came in here to say exactly this. Whenever I read people still bitching and moaning about Fox News, I wanna ask them how they feel about MSNBC.
Because the problem with Fox News is the same as the problem with this AP piece. It is commentary masquerading as impartial news. MSNBC has news which provides unbiased or even balanced news and then it has Hardball and Countdown which are blatantly biased commentary shows.

I have no problem with Hannity bloviating and O'Reilly steaming. it's what goes on between 7AM and 5PM which looks like news but ain't.
post #23 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
I think the study you mention was from June/July and did not include print media at all.

The New Yorker cover of course was actually a pro-Obama article that was interpreted wrong of course.
Yeah, I think you're right about that study. Not that I've ever said that the press has a conservative bias. Even the study you cited had the split down the middle. It doesn't really explain Fournier and the AP.

That gets back to my original premise, which is that at best, Forunier's "analysis" is extremely sloppy. His "analysis" is being defending on the notion that it's guided by the candidate's own claims. If that was the case, where is the scathing "analysis" on McCain's failure to live up to this commander-in-chief test? He has shown time and again that he doesn't understand or care to understand basic facts on war and diplomacy. I could cite many instances but they're obvious if anyone's been paying attention.

On this MSNBC v FNC debate... I don't have a problem with Fox's bias. But I do have a problem with their inexcusably low standard for news. Say what you will about MSNBC's liberal slant, at least they're generally more concerned with accuracy in their reporting than Fox.
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