A Serious Question to McCain Supporters

With the official Republican strategy to be laying out just that, I'm more curious -- honestly, also not baiting -- to hear from McCain supporters what they see as McCain's best case scenario. I want to hear the argument for McCain, stated with no reference to his opposition.

I sense trouble brewing here.

are there any McCain Supporters who post on CHUD?

Snaaaaaaeeeeeiiike!

Well, personally, I'm not planning on arguing, or even posting again in this thread. I'll be voting for Obama, but I want to hear the pro-McCain case.

Those crickets chirping are Republicans. Too often crickets are dismissed by the liberal media.

Rapture?

Kinda busy tonight but I'll work something up for tomorrow.

Stab in the dark --

Biggest fear: Obama becomes a condom.

4 years of the presidency is nothing for a man who spent 5 1/2 YEARS IN A POW CAMP. That's why he'll be a great president. POW!

With respect to foreign policy:

Pulling out of the war too soon will cause further instability in the middle east, and provide a haven for potential terrorists in an increasingly volatile atmosphere conducive to to the creation of extremist groups. This may also increase the price of oil and make America look weak/capricious in the eyes of other nations. Obama's lighter stance on decreasing civil liberties may further increase the terrorist threat.

Also, there are all the (incredibly bogus) reports of him being a Muslim (stemming from his middle name, him apparently matriculating at a school registered as such) and this is scary not only for conservative Christians but also some (typically more liberal) Jews who fear a lack of respect for Israel's rights. In sum: expensive oil, the potential for more terrorist acts, increased violence between Israel and Palestine with America failing to support Israel, a weakening of America's image as a great super power in a time where China is already beginning to encroach upon America's cultural mindshare and economic power.

With respect to domestic issues:

A possible lack of tax cuts and economic stimulus checks means we won't be able to buy more plasma tvs, but it also means less money for middle class families and less consumer spending. This could lead to an even worse economy. So: more taxes in a worse economic atmosphere. This is scary for middle class families and terrifying for major corporations.

The lack of offshore drilling would mean an increase in gas prices and this is particularly unwelcome in our awful economic atmosphere. Obama's insistence that we should just fill up our tires not only shows a troubling lack of pragmatism and experience (clearly this solution doesn't add up completely) but also implies that we, as Americans, must begin to give up the luxuries we've always held as our birthright. The idea of sacrificing luxury as a means to make economic/environmental progress is a scary one because it not only, obviously, means making sacrifices with respect to quality of life (no, filling up our tires does not doesn't result in a significant decrease in quality of life but it's synecdochical of more tangible sacrifices), but posits a trajectory of decreased luxury and economic fortitude.

And let's be honest about cultural issues. Yes, Obama is half black, but the race issue is WAY more complicated than that. The black community is, to some extent, divided between a younger generation that wants to form its on identity on its own terms (gangster rap is all about making money selling cocaine in spite of racist police who, in this case, symbolize brainless white power and oppression), and an older generation (like Jesse Jackson) who want to help the black middle class achieve equality with respect to education and career prospects. Obama became successful by going to the best schools (hip hop stars such as Kanye West suggest that college is an institute of white cultural oppression), and while he has been very vocal about feeling a bit torn between his white and black relatives, even in front of the media, he acts pretty stereotypically white. But the hip hop community (Nas, Ludacris, etc.) loves Obama. That he is stuck between two generations of American blacks with opposing values puts him in a horrible position, one that is almost impossible to navigate. And the simple fact that he has to deal with this in the media means that people have to think about how seriously racist our culture still is...and who wants to do that?

Also, people are wary of his religion due to Reverend Wright's comments and Obama's perceived links to Islam.

So, for a McCain Supporter, I think the threat of chaos in Iraq, an increase in terrorist activities, a terrible economy alongside high taxes, a decrease in the transparency of American racism and thus further racial tensions, and threats to one's religious beliefs are pretty good reasons not to vote for Obama. Of course, Democrats widely believe that McCain's aggressive foreign policy will create more hostility toward America and cost the economy too much, and that the quick depletion of oil reserves will make us even more dependent on foreign oil.... Both Democrats and Republicans want the same thing (a better economy, better quality of life, safety from religious extremists); it's more a divergent sense of cause and effect rather than the ultimate effect people want that divides them....that and, in some cases, religion.

Ok, I'll bite.

Worst Case Obama Scenarios

- Protectionism, Trade and the Economy - I am a supporter of open and free markets. I believe strongly in the global economy and I believe in embracing it rather than hiding from it which will hurt the USA long-term. I believe Obama and a Dem congress will pass laws around trade, govt bailouts and employer restrictions that may sound good on paper to "keep jobs in America" but will be harmful to our ability to compete in the true, global economy. I've studied enough macro and mico economics and also worked in the "real world" long enough that I think Obama and Dem policies around employment and the economy are just dead, dead wrong.

- Taxes - One of the most important issues to me in every election. I know for a fact that Obama will raise taxes on me and my family and I refuse to support increased taxes. The biggest problem I have with taxes is I do not believe the government (no matter who is in office) spends money wisely. The feds spend money like its water and no matter how altruistic their reasons for doing so. Like some people cannot understand how the "other side" feels about issues like abortion or immigration reform, I cannot understand how any working person can vote for a party/candidate that raises taxes.

- Health Care - I work in the industry (kind of) and yes its a mess. But...enforcing mandatory coverage and aiming for universal coverage will destroy health care as we know it. And not in a good way. Universal and mandatory care will result in a lowering of our current high-tech and "best in the world" medicines and doctors. And having worked first hand with Medicare Part-D and seeing the utter incompetence of the feds in administering just that piece of health care scared ths shit outta me if they took on all of health care.

- Gun Control - I strongly believe in one's right to own guns. I do not believe gun manufacturers should be held responsible in lawsuits. I do not believe less firearms decreases crime but the opposite.

- Personal Responsibility - To me, the Dem party stands for the party of "vote for us and we'll take care of you." I abhor that notion in its entirety. I belive govt should be as limited as utterly possible in almost all facets of life. I don't want, nor do I need, a nanny. I don't want a party in power that tells me how to spend my money, where my kids can go to school, "protect" me from myself, etc. All of Obama's and his party's increased legislation scares the hell outta me. Laws are like taxes, once they're in place people become complacent and they become damn hard to change or undo. I do not want the US Govt telling me what to do and I feel that is exactly what he wants.

- Foreign Policy - I don't think war is a good thing and I do think Iraq was one helluva mistake in many, many ways. But I think leaving before the country is stable undoes all the good we have done there (and yes, we have done good IMHO overall). Outside of Iraq I want a strong US presence around the world. I do believe in working with other nations and diplomacy, but I think when it comes time to draw a line in the sand you have to. And I don't think Obama has what it takes to do that. I feel he would try and cow-tow to too many factions and opinions and never take definitve action if needed.

Mind you, I am not a blind and loyal GOP stooge. I'm a registered independent who considers himself a financial conservative and socal moderate. The religious right and their chokehold on the last 8 years makes me sick. However, I generally find myself voting GOP because I find economic and tax issues more important than social issues. And thats one of the things I like about McCain, I do think hes a step in the right direction for the GOP to be more moderate.

Hope that helps.

How do you rationalize lowering taxes when your president has spent more money than any president in U.S. history?

Sean, I think Bush has been terrible about financial security and the GOP has lost its way on the issue, I agree. I think that was a big reason the GOP lost so many seats in the Senate and House last go-round.

But I trust McCain more to curb that than I do Obama. And I just posted some reasons to answer Gabe's thread question. In general I was trying to limit my response to what I dislike/do not want from an Obama presidency rather then writing a defense of the 21st century GOP.

My mother's (a lifelong dem, who is leaning toward McCain) biggest fear is that Obama's lack of experience will cause him to be Jimmy Carter II. vI didn't live during that era so it's difficult for me to understand her degree of disappointment with that era. It more Obama will get nothing accomplished at a time when something has to be done.

I don't get why she thinks McCain will be a change from Bush, but I don't need to be dealing with that across the table.

To be a McCain supporter, you clearly have to be out of your goddamn mind. Insanity is essentially doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. There's your short answer.

Republicans who keep voting against their best interests (unless of course they enjoy paying $4 for a gallon of gas) and helping to elect these corporately-owned candidates are so practiced in double-think, it's almost pointless to debate them. They see Republicans as these white knights who lower taxes (if you're one of the top 0.1% of us), beat back terrorists (except of course on 9/11) and simply love America more than some damn liberal (not taking into account all our civil liberties they strip from us).

I'll be the first to admit that the Dems totally fucked us when they took back Congress at the end of '06. But again, the party has become a bunch of whipped dogs. They can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory like nobody's business. Nevertheless, the Republicans have spent the past 8 years capitalizing on our fear, our ignorance, and our seemingly uncharacteristic willingness to let our country be turned into some ideological perversion, bought and paid for by Corporate America. We can do better.

Or we can elect John McCain.

There isn't much of a change between McCain and Bush in political ideology besides a few key points, however I think there will be a huge difference between the two in management.

It seems that McCain is a much more forceful individual than Bush and I would challenge the notion that a McCain administration would be as inefficient, irresponsible, and bumbling as the Bush administration. I can't guarantee that and it is just speculation, but Bush and McCain have far different personalities and I think McCain would be on the ball during crises compared to what Bush has.

I'm no longer a McCain supporter, but I've never been a supporter of Obama either. All I want to know is why support a party who has been walked over constantly and consistently for the past decade? The Democratic Party has been so schizophrenic since the 94 debacle, they fear losing voters and their principles suffer in the process. Instead of standing up for gay rights to the proper way, they back down on gay marriage for fear of losing social cons. Instead of standing up to those supporting offshore drilling, they cave. This party is so politically expedient its insane to consider supporting them for the only reason to take away the power of the Republican Party.

That may be a good reason for you, but for me, its a piss poor reason to vote for any political party and its candidates. The fact is that American politics is ultimately flawed because of our two party system. We have a party with many political opinions that caves on issues to gain voters (that does not work) and we have a party with a strong core with antiquated and unreasonable views on society and its common mores. There is no true middle ground and there are no other viewpoints.

So, what do we do?

Eventually people have to stand up and demand more from our two party system. Either adapt or we bolt and create our own. Sure, it hasn't worked in the past 100 years, but have we really experienced such a governmental meltdown? Where our government is so bloated and inefficient that it doesn't know its right arm from its left?

Somebody needs an explanation of this thread in picture form, words must be too confusing.

Is gun control even on the radar at the moment? Other than D.C.'s restrictions being relaxed I don't recall gun control being mentioned recently at all. Is McCain talking about relaxing any particular gun laws?

Good post, Smails. I think it convinced me to vote for Bob Barr.

See, the problem is that we as a country need to realize that to get the US back on stable financial footing, taxes need to be raised AND spending needs to get cut.

But good luck getting elected on THAT platform.

Well, the truth is that these options:

1) Increase taxes, increase expenses
2) Increase taxes, decrease expenses
3) Decrease taxes, decrease expenses

Are much better options than Bush's "decrease taxes, increase expenses".

Simple math is required to understand this.

He's our president, while you like it or not.

"- Taxes - One of the most important issues to me in every election. I know for a fact that Obama will raise taxes on me and my family and I refuse to support increased taxes. The biggest problem I have with taxes is I do not believe the government (no matter who is in office) spends money wisely. The feds spend money like its water and no matter how altruistic their reasons for doing so. Like some people cannot understand how the "other side" feels about issues like abortion or immigration reform, I cannot understand how any working person can vote for a party/candidate that raises taxes.

- Health Care - I work in the industry (kind of) and yes its a mess. But...enforcing mandatory coverage and aiming for universal coverage will destroy health care as we know it. And not in a good way. Universal and mandatory care will result in a lowering of our current high-tech and "best in the world" medicines and doctors. And having worked first hand with Medicare Part-D and seeing the utter incompetence of the feds in administering just that piece of health care scared the shit outta me if they took on all of health care.

- Gun Control - I strongly believe in one's right to own guns. I do not believe gun manufacturers should be held responsible in lawsuits. I do not believe less firearms decreases crime but the opposite.

- Personal Responsibility - To me, the Dem party stands for the party of "vote for us and we'll take care of you." I abhor that notion in its entirety. I believe govt should be as limited as utterly possible in almost all facets of life. I don't want, nor do I need, a nanny. I don't want a party in power that tells me how to spend my money, where my kids can go to school, "protect" me from myself, etc. All of Obama's and his party's increased legislation scares the hell outta me. Laws are like taxes, once they're in place people become complacent and they become damn hard to change or undo. I do not want the US Govt telling me what to do and I feel that is exactly what he wants."

Bingo Judge, you pretty much explained how I feel and in a far better way as well. Taxes, Health Care, National Security, and your point on Personal Responsibility is right how I feel. I feel like the Democratic party wants to "take care of the masses" Making the citizens more dependent on the government for their care.

(do you really want the government that bankrupted social security to take care of the medial field? it'll be a disaster.)

Not only did you fail to answer Seans question, Im having some serious trouble trying to work out what this even means...

If you are using the Iraq War as a basis of increased spending, the budget might be dented with a decrease in spending.

However, if you are using the concrete standard of the budget deficit without the Iraq War included in the figures, a decrease in spending will not do very much damage to the deficit at all unless you jack up taxes significantly for all people or... you cut mandatory spending (which is politically very difficult to do.)

Discretionary spending is very difficult to cut unless that spending is used in pork barrel projects. Typical budget cuts around the board are usually so small that the only real way to balance a budget nowadays is to have higher taxes. We are unfortunately becoming a society where our taxes will have to be high in order to pay for the mandatory spending that will just astronomically increase over time as more people become elderly and rely on Medicare and Social Security.

Not too many people know about this and our government will soon enter a massive shock when they see the future budget deficit estimates 10 years from now.

I brought it up becasue he said "your" president, not "our"

what I mean is that the people of America should unite for their president, while it's understandable to disagree with the person, there still should be respect given to the office, regardless of who is in control. Not blind devotion of course, but respect.

That's dumb. The last eight years have proved how truly dumb that is. If this nation had a bit of integrity, we would have pulled that man out of the office by his hair. Now that would have been showing respect to the presidency.


BTW, McCain supporters are about three things:

-Taxes. Either they're rich and don't want to pay taxes or they think they'll somehow get rich.

- Racism.

- Tough guy posturing bullshit.

McCain's not just a terrible person because his positions suck, he's a terrible person because he has kowtowed so much since 2000 so that he could even be in this position. After the horrible smear tactics that were used against him the first time around the fact that he'd go this negative this early shows a complete lack of ethics.

I think the "worst case scenario" of an Obama presidency (for McCain supporters) is that we will see the Second Coming of Jimmy Carter. I was a kid during Carter's term but I remember how digusted people were with him and the country in general. This was also the era of real gas crisis (as in waiting in line for hours to fill up your tank, never mind the price) and the Iranian hostage situation, only to watch the Prez get on the tube and tell us we had to set our thermostats lower in the winter and wear sweaters.

What I keep hearing from McCain supporters is that Obama is naive about the reality of the world...which is that the US is surrounded by enemies who can and will take advantage of any weakness. It is a profoundly paranoid view that I've never hear being touted some prominently by a major politcal candidate and his supporters.

Ah, just like everyone united behind Carter and Clinton, eh?

Obama is for the open market. His economic plan has cited not only Clinton economics but also Reaganomics. He's trying to figure out what our economy needs not only at the moment but fifteen years from now. Continuing to depend on a fuel resource that enriches our enemies and makes us more dependent to them simply doesn't make sense. Investing in American based fuel alternatives, thus creating more jobs and a more stable economy for us, does. I don't want to be rude because remarkably everyone has been acting civil in this thread thus far, but ...have you read anything on Obama's economic plan? Because I live in the "real world" too and I know that the economy is hurting after eight years of a repulican in the white house, a republican who is NOT a fiscal conservative. Obama is more fiscally conservative than Bush and that's a fact. Read up on it if you don't believe me.

Obama's plan does call to raise taxes, it's true. On the uber-rich. So unless you're one of the 5% of American's that makes that much money, you're not going to get taxed. They've had a break for the past eight years, creating the widest economic based class gap in decades. It's their turn to pay up, not give oil companies a break.
Obama doesn't support universal and mandatory health care. That's Hillary Clinton. He calls for health care plan to be available to all who want it. There is a difference.
With everything going on, from the war, to the economy...this is really going to be a sticking point with you? And do you think it's on the top of Obama's list? "I get into office...it's GONE with those GUNS!" Come on...
I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here. You realize that after 9/11, Bush told us to shop, right? How is that not the government telling us how to use our money? Our roads, our bridges are in massive disrepair. Would you rather have your family die in a collapsing bridge, or have the government pay for it? I don't mean to be a dick but...come on. Think about it.
A strong US presence around the world is a good thing. Like in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where Al Queida no doubt currently resides. Iraq can't be blamed on Obama. He wanted nothing to do with it in the first place, he was one of the few senators who stood against it. That doesn't mean he's going to pull out recklessly. That doesn't mean he's against military force of any kind. The line in the sand isn't in Iraq. It's elsewhere, and he wants to go where we should have gone in the first place.

I hope you don't mind that I debated your points. Thank you for sharing them in the first place.

Come on. That's not politically sexy but it's common sense. The problem with America is that everybody wants solutions that don't require them to do anything and that are basically magic bullets. This is why we're still talking about fucking offshore oil drilling.

EXACTLY how I see things. Massive rollbacks in the military AND in entitlements. No guns, no butter.

Again, I'm pretty certain that the only way to avoid being part of this is to find a nice stable country with a sane, conservative fiscal policy to move to. The economic collapse of the US will probably damn near crash the world economy, but you'd think some places should be able to weather the storm.

I think you really didn't do the "protectionism" counter point much justice. Every candidate is saying "we'll create more jobs by investing in alternative fuel technologies" but that is not a tangible solution to the problem is "fair trade", our trade deficit and just globalization in general.

Fiscal conservatism also doesn't really have to do much with that subject either.

I hear that despite the cold, Denmark has its shit together Chavez...

With the economy?

Also...Obama as quoted in the New York Times on his economic plan.

“I think I can tell a pretty simple story. Ronald Reagan ushered in an era that reasserted the marketplace and freedom. He made people aware of the cost involved of government regulation or at least a command-and-control-style regulation regime. Bill Clinton to some extent continued that pattern, although he may have smoothed out the edges of it. And George Bush took Ronald Reagan’s insight and ran it over a cliff. And so I think the simple way of telling the story is that when Bill Clinton said the era of big government is over, he wasn’t arguing for an era of no government. So what we need to bring about is the end of the era of unresponsive and inefficient government and short-term thinking in government, so that the government is laying the groundwork, the framework, the foundation for the market to operate effectively and for every single individual to be able to be connected with that market and to succeed in that market. And it’s now a global marketplace."

Entitlement spending, which itself is a misnomer, will be virtually impossible to cut and it would be political suicide for anyone that would support it. Mandatory spending would certainly have to be taken care of for the immediate future and if the government would cut it down once the majority of the Baby Boomers have died... it might work.

The way demographics are shifting, cutting mandatory spending now would devastate social welfare policies inside the mandatory spending spectrum for decades.

WRT to protectionism, my bad, I noticed the general "economy" bit there but focused on that because he really made the main point there about trade. Ignore that last part, but consider my comments on trade. Sorry.

http://www.taxanalysts.com/thp/readi...2570BA0048848B

You're Mom probably remembers waiting on line to buy gas. There are some very strong similarities between Carter and Obama. You should do some research on Carters windfall profit tax, remember Obama wants to initiate a new set of windfall profits tax (I haven't researched if they're identical). Here's an article from years before Obama started running.

Oil companies just retracted to ensure there wasn't profit for them to get taxed on and it increased our dependency on foreign oil in the process. In essence, you can thank Carter for $4.00 a gallon gas!!!!

Ironically, The reason's why Carter is so disliked is what makes me love him. Plus he never demonized marijuana and was looking into ways of possibly decriminalizing it.

I was born in 1982, but I love that fact that as president he tried to solve the energy crisis and Global Warming THIRTY YEARS AGO. That was before the evidence became so overwhelming after Al Gore's stupid movie. I think this guy was a visionary on that issue.

However, he was a total pussy when it came to those hostages in Iran.

"Wear a sweater and I'll put ugly-assed solar panels on the White House. That is how J CAR roles, Bitches"- Jimmy Carter

When you're right, you're dead fucking right.

To quote Moe from The Simpsons, "Ah, they shouldn't have been there in the first place."

This, of course, is the great irony of the limited government, get off my lawn Republican party. They can tell people who can marry who, what women can do with their bodies, they can listen to our conversations and monitor our habits and they can detain our citizens... but liberals are invasive.

I'd rather the goverment spend billions of dollars on programs that help its citizens than on blowing shit up in Iraq.

It's why I am re-registering Independent this year.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

I said I wouldn't post here again, but, hell -- no takers on my angle, to present "the argument for McCain, stated with no reference to his opposition"?

Come on. What's his plan that's so vote-worthy? Give me the McCain-positive pitch, instead of the Obama-negative pitch.

Maybe I missed it with the quick read, if so, apologies and point me to em.

And for the record, if you're making less than a quarter-million a year, Obama's stated tax plan will possibly cut your income tax more than McCain's will.

If you're making a quarter-million or more, yeah, your taxes would go up and Obama's not for you. But, congratulations on the wealth, and what the hell are you doing dicking around on internet message boards in the middle of the day.