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Poll: Most Influential Film Score

Poll Results: Most Influential Film Score?

This is a multiple choice poll
  • 4% (2)
    Alexander Nevsky - Sergei Prokofiev - 1938
  • 21% (10)
    Psycho - Bernard Herrmann - 1960
  • 4% (2)
    Dr. No/From Russia With Love - John Barry - 1962/1963
  • 13% (6)
    A Fistful of Dollars - Ennio Morricone - 1967
  • 52% (24)
    Star Wars - John Williams - 1977
  • 0% (0)
    Midnight Express - Giorgio Moroder - 1978
  • 2% (1)
    Star Trek: The Motion Picture - Jerry Goldsmith - 1979
  • 2% (1)
    Crimson Tide - Hans Zimmer - 1995
  • 0% (0)
    Titanic - James Horner - 1997
  • 0% (0)
    American Beauty - Thomas Newman - 1999
46 Total Votes  
post #1 of 46
9/3/08 at 3:08pm
Thread Starter 
Thought this might be fun.

The question isn't necessarily to rank all of these scores against one another, but to measure each one's impact relative to its time and beyond, as in, how pervasive its success was, how often and to what extent its approach was aped in other projects, etc. The list isn't meant to be exhaustive, but I tried to represent most eras of modern film. If I forgot one or didn't include one on the list, please feel free to argue for it. That's probably where the best debate will be.

I was considering setting forth an argument for each one, and I can still do that if anyone cares, but I'm curious to see what first impressions are.

I went back and forth about it but decided to set up the poll so you can vote for more than one score, in case people want to rank them. I'm open to changing that (if that's possible; I've never done a poll before).

Note: I combined DR. NO AND FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE to mix together the "James Bond Theme" and Barry's first real Bond score. It's difficult to gauge the impact of one without the other.
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post #2 of 46
9/3/08 at 3:22pm
Surprise surprise, I picked Star Wars. It really helped bring back the orchestral film score to prominence, it made the score album commercially viable (you probably don't have a Varese Sarabande without the success of the Star Wars album) and it inspired an entire wave of composers in the 80s.
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post #3 of 46
9/3/08 at 3:29pm
No Korngold?
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post #4 of 46
9/3/08 at 3:36pm
I picked Star Wars, but Crimson Tide would maybe be the best answer for just the past 15 years. So much stuff sounds like Zimmer's action work (including Zimmer's later action work).
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post #5 of 46
9/3/08 at 3:39pm
I woulda picked like Bride of Frankenstein or something.
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post #6 of 46
9/3/08 at 3:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minsky View Post
No Korngold?
I definitely thought about Korngold. ROBIN HOOD was on my short list. Certainly it was influential, and you could argue that Williams wouldn't be where he is without Korngold. In the end I had trouble putting it in there over the ten I chose, although it's probably as deserving as something like TITANIC.

In any event, I think NEVSKY was way more influential than ROBIN HOOD. But maybe it was unfair not to give ROBIN HOOD a chance.
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post #7 of 46
9/3/08 at 3:45pm
Seriously: WHERE THE FUCK IS JAWS?

How can you even discuss modern influential scores without that one?
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post #8 of 46
9/3/08 at 3:47pm
Thread Starter 
JAWS was another. It's one of my favorite scores, so believe me it was difficult not to be biased about it, but beside the fact that it's one of the best scores ever written, how would you say it, by itself, was influential? You can't say JAWS was the score where Williams returned scoring to its grand orchestral roots. He'd already been doing that for years. It was STAR WARS that really popularized the approach.
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post #9 of 46
9/3/08 at 3:48pm
Jaws is the reason I hedged and didn't give Star Wars all the credit for the return of the orchestral score.
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post #10 of 46
9/3/08 at 3:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
Seriously: WHERE THE FUCK IS JAWS?

How can you even discuss modern influential scores without that one?
You have a point. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why you think it is so influential, instead of screaming and cursing.

I think, between Jaws and Star Wars, SW ends up being the focal point of J. Williams score/theme discussions. That's probably why JAWS is not there.
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post #11 of 46
9/3/08 at 4:04pm
I think too many people think of Jaws and hear nothing but the "da-dum da-dum da-dum" theme, completely ignoring the wonderfully adventurous theme Williams came up with for the Orca and her crew. It can be jaunty, as when they first head out to sea, rollicking, as used during the barrel chases, and mournful, as it's used over the end credits. And there's also the frenetic string theme used when they first spot the shark and again as they build the cage, and the glorious fanfare that plays over the tourists arriving in Amity. There's a lot more going on than just those two famous notes played over and over again.
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post #12 of 46
9/3/08 at 4:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
I think too many people think of Jaws and hear nothing but the "da-dum da-dum da-dum" theme, completely ignoring the wonderfully adventurous theme Williams came up with for the Orca and her crew. It can be jaunty, as when they first head out to sea, rollicking, as used during the barrel chases, and mournful, as it's used over the end credits. And there's also the frenetic string theme used when they first spot the shark and again as they build the cage, and the glorious fanfare that plays over the tourists arriving in Amity. There's a lot more going on that just those two famous notes played over and over again.
I was hoping to get a review of it published here on the main site, but no dice so far. In short, I agree 100%.
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post #13 of 46
9/3/08 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Allen View Post
You have a point. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why you think it is so influential, instead of screaming and cursing.

I think, between Jaws and Star Wars, SW ends up being the focal point of J. Williams score/theme discussions. That's probably why JAWS is not there.
It was meant in good humor, not as aggressive screaming and cursing. You guys with your "emoticons are gay" policy around here make it hard to convey emotion through writing.

And you all have some points, I suppose I was just having the knee-jerk reaction of thinking in terms of "most memorable"/"biggest cultural impact" rather than what actually influenced future film scores. In those terms, I'd probably rate Star Wars a little above Jaws, and if you're going by the logic of choosing one film per composer, I could see why it was off the list. Plus Jaws came first, but I'd definitely agree that Star Wars is a much more evolved/"complete" score in terms of what Williams became known for.

And like Dickson pointed out, there is way more to the Jaws score than just the simple two-note theme that is now synonymous with swimming in any kind of water.
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post #14 of 46
9/3/08 at 4:16pm
Star Wars is definitely where Williams took leitmotif and just ran with it, with Empire probably being his finest use of it.
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post #15 of 46
9/3/08 at 4:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
It was meant in good humor, not as aggressive screaming and cursing. You guys with your "emoticons are gay" policy around here make it hard to convey emotion through writing
Emoticons are the opposite of conveying emotion through writing. They're a crutch. If you really, really need them, can't you just drop a
Quote:
(by the way, that was sarcastic)
into the mix?

Edit - You don't even seem to need them, your writing seems solid enough. If you're not comfortable with the clarity of your phrasing, practice more. Post more. Strive for the bare minimum number of words you can use to accurately convey tone and content.
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post #16 of 46
9/3/08 at 4:40pm
http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html
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post #17 of 46
9/3/08 at 4:51pm
You just had to go full Orwell, didn't you?

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post #18 of 46
9/3/08 at 4:53pm
Telling someone to practice posting and giving tips regarding clarity of phrasing is just downright rude.

Even I assumed it wasn't meant with malice.
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post #19 of 46
9/3/08 at 5:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bees?! View Post
Telling someone to practice posting and giving tips regarding clarity of phrasing is just downright rude.

Even I assumed it wasn't meant with malice.
No rudeness intended at all. I was addressing joeypants seeming lack of confidence in his own ability to convey emotion through writing, not criticizing his writing. He seemed pretty clear to me as far as his intent, which I pointed out when I said his writing seemed pretty solid. I was merely offering what I tend to do when I write something I'm dissatisfied with, as a suggestion that he's more than welcome to take, leave, or tell me to shove straight up my ass - all valid responses. If he himself feels that he can't convey emotion satisfactorily through writing, I can think of no better solution to that than practice.

But if any feelings got hurt, rest assured that wasn't my intent at all, and I sincerely apologize.

Plus, I tried to take the piss out of my own remark by following it up directly with an emoticon.
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post #20 of 46
9/3/08 at 5:07pm
I almost went with Fistful of Dollars--because, really, Westerns for the last four decades have been taking their notes from Morricone, but ended up going for Star Wars for all the reasons Dickson listed. It's all encompassing how much that score changed the standing of film scores, and its effects are still felt today (although there is a trending going on to go more minimalist and atmospheric, such as a lot of Elfman's recent work, not to mention Jon Brion and company).
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post #21 of 46
9/3/08 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie-wanker View Post
No rudeness intended at all. I was addressing joeypants seeming lack of confidence in his own ability to convey emotion through writing, not criticizing his writing. He seemed pretty clear to me as far as his intent, which I pointed out when I said his writing seemed pretty solid. I was merely offering what I tend to do when I write something I'm dissatisfied with, as a suggestion that he's more than welcome to take, leave, or tell me to shove straight up my ass - all valid responses. If he himself feels that he can't convey emotion satisfactorily through writing, I can think of no better solution to that than practice.

But if any feelings got hurt, rest assured that wasn't my intent at all, and I sincerely apologize.

Plus, I tried to take the piss out of my own remark by following it up directly with an emoticon.
You should strive to use the bare minimum words to convey your point possible.

I jest of course.

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post #22 of 46
9/3/08 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bees?! View Post
You should strive to use the bare minimum words to convey your point possible.

I jest of course.
You should have seen the long version of that.
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post #23 of 46
9/3/08 at 5:19pm
I might argue for Max Steiner's atmospheric KING KONG score. It hits all the bases (horror, comedy, tragedy, & especially adventure), knows how to build a mood, has been seen by everyone, and has influenced many a film-maker. Don't know how it was missed.

That wasn't on the list, so I picked PSYCHO & STAR WARS.
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post #24 of 46
9/3/08 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
I might argue for Max Stein's atmospheric KING KONG score. It hits all the bases (horror, comedy, tragedy, & especially adventure), knows how to build a mood, has been seen by everyone, and has influenced many a film-maker. Don't know how it was missed.

That wasn't on the list, so I picked PSYCHO & STAR WARS.
Agreed re Max Steiner. I'd have picked him over Morricone if it were a choice.
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post #25 of 46
9/3/08 at 5:34pm
Good topic. Threw my support behind Herrmann. Could it be said he was the Williams of the 60's? I Would sy both left their imprint on popular culture like few modern composers do.
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post #26 of 46
9/3/08 at 5:35pm
And both were quite intimately associated with arguably the most popular directors of their eras.
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post #27 of 46
9/3/08 at 6:50pm
Thread Starter 
General question: I struggled a bit with the MIDNIGHT EXPRESS entry. I needed to address that type of scoring which became so prevalent in the early 80's (moody, textural writing mostly for synths, etc). Obviously there are "bigger" successes -- RISKY BUSINESS, BLADE RUNNER, CHARIOTS OF FIRE -- but MIDNIGHT EXPRESS seemed to show that it would work in a pedigreed picture to that degree. I considered Tangerine Dream's THIEF but chose ME because it came out three years earlier. Anyone have thoughts on this?
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post #28 of 46
9/3/08 at 6:56pm
FORBIDDEN PLANET surely rates a mention as far as a major studio production with an electronic score?

Back in freewheeling 90's HK, when you could easily get away with such things, Johnnie To "borrowed" some of the MIDNIGHT EXPRESS score for THE LONGEST NITE. Took me years to figure out where I'd heard it before. It was the last HK film I can think of with a blatantly stolen bit of music in the score - this had been common practice for decades prior. I don't think Ennio Morricone has any clue how many martial arts films he's scored over the years. Or that he's scored any. But it's why I voted for FISTFUL OF DOLLARS. A lot of Morricone's popularity in Asia is quite possibly due to films he doesn't know he scored.
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post #29 of 46
9/3/08 at 7:05pm
I think Forbidden Planet's score influenced sound-effects more than music.

I'd say someone like Dmitri Tiomkin or Miklos Rosza was the "John Williams of the '50s". Herrmann was (and is) just... Herrmann.

We wouldn't have the modern movie score without Steiner, or the 1938 one-two punch of Prokofiev and Korngold.

If 'influential' means 'superficially imitated for decades', then yes, Herrmann and Williams. Herrmann for the idea that you didn't absolutely need to use a conventional orchestra, and Williams for the idea that you totally did.
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post #30 of 46
9/3/08 at 7:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie-wanker View Post
No rudeness intended at all. I was addressing joeypants seeming lack of confidence in his own ability to convey emotion through writing, not criticizing his writing. He seemed pretty clear to me as far as his intent, which I pointed out when I said his writing seemed pretty solid. I was merely offering what I tend to do when I write something I'm dissatisfied with, as a suggestion that he's more than welcome to take, leave, or tell me to shove straight up my ass - all valid responses. If he himself feels that he can't convey emotion satisfactorily through writing, I can think of no better solution to that than practice.

But if any feelings got hurt, rest assured that wasn't my intent at all, and I sincerely apologize.

Plus, I tried to take the piss out of my own remark by following it up directly with an emoticon.
It's not that I doubt my ability to do so, it's just that, like many on here, I post mainly at work. Thus, I tend to just rapidly fire things off, often forgoing niceties like proofreading. Ha ha. Emoticons mean I can be lazy (which is not good, of course).
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post #31 of 46
9/3/08 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Banks is my hero View Post
General question: I struggled a bit with the MIDNIGHT EXPRESS entry. I needed to address that type of scoring which became so prevalent in the early 80's (moody, textural writing mostly for synths, etc). Obviously there are "bigger" successes -- RISKY BUSINESS, BLADE RUNNER, CHARIOTS OF FIRE -- but MIDNIGHT EXPRESS seemed to show that it would work in a pedigreed picture to that degree. I considered Tangerine Dream's THIEF but chose ME because it came out three years earlier. Anyone have thoughts on this?
I need to go back and watch Midnight Express again, as I was too young/not into the art form to take notice of the score last time I saw it. This was one of the films my father chose to show me when I was under 10 years old. And Deliverance. He didn't really separate what he remembered as awesome films and what a child should watch. Ha. Ultimately, I thank him for it, because I was into "good" movies at a younger age.

However, having just bought and watched Deliverance a couple of days ago, I really have to question what the fuck he was thinking.
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post #32 of 46
9/3/08 at 7:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
It's not that I doubt my ability to do so, it's just that, like many on here, I post mainly at work. Thus, I tend to just rapidly fire things off, often forgoing niceties like proofreading. Ha ha. Emoticons mean I can be lazy (which is not good, of course).
Totally fair.
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post #33 of 46
9/3/08 at 7:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
Herrmann for the idea that you didn't absolutely need to use a conventional orchestra ...
Absolutely. I feel like I'm only bringing up scores that didn't go into the poll (which, admittedly, would look way different if there were more options allowed), but THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL was worth consideration for this very reason.

Another general question: I felt comfortable with the Morricone here because of what it meant for scores on the whole, but I had to think about what exactly Morricone was inverting with his score, ie, the classic archetypal western scores that came before. Quite honestly, I just didn't come up with one to include.
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post #34 of 46
9/3/08 at 8:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Banks is my hero View Post
Absolutely. I feel like I'm only bringing up scores that didn't go into the poll (which, admittedly, would look way different if there were more options allowed), but THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL was worth consideration for this very reason.

Another general question: I felt comfortable with the Morricone here because of what it meant for scores on the whole, but I had to think about what exactly Morricone was inverting with his score, ie, the classic archetypal western scores that came before. Quite honestly, I just didn't come up with one to include.
Before Morricone's aggresive, innovative approach to scoring westerns, most of them were very romantic, dramatic compositions. Invariably you'd have some cowboy crooning over the opening credits, and the more generic stuff would make sure to hammer home EXACTLY what you should be feeling. Even a score as thematically appropriate as The Searchers is guilty of holding the audience's hand at times, something Morricone tossed out the window.
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post #35 of 46
9/3/08 at 8:10pm
Aaron Copland did not, to my knowledge, write much for films, but his take on American music dominated the Western for years.
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post #36 of 46
9/3/08 at 8:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
Aaron Copland did not, to my knowledge, write much for films, but his take on American music dominated the Western for years.
I think that's fair to say. I was having difficulty pinpointing it.
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post #37 of 46
9/3/08 at 8:40pm
Gladiator needs to be one of the choices.
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post #38 of 46
9/3/08 at 8:48pm
Agreed on 'Gladiator'. I'd also put 'Aliens' as an influential film score...look at how many trailers in the years following that movie used the cues from that movie to punch up action scenes. It's pretty much the definitive action movie score.
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post #39 of 46
9/3/08 at 9:00pm
BATTLE BEYOND THE STARS - aka the first time James Horner wrote the same score he wrote hundreds of other times throughout the 80s, most notably including WRATH OF KHAN and ALIENS.
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post #40 of 46
9/3/08 at 9:40pm
Kings Row
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post #41 of 46
9/3/08 at 9:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
Gladiator needs to be one of the choices.
I didn't even think of GLADIATOR, but yeah, that's as influential a score as any in the past several years. *wailing moan*

Having said that, I put TITANIC on the list because it was a precursor in this area. People loved the female vocals, to the point where they became pervasive. (People also loved those goddamn uilean pipes.) LOTR might cite it as an influence, for better or worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
I'd also put 'Aliens' as an influential film score...look at how many trailers in the years following that movie used the cues from that movie to punch up action scenes. It's pretty much the definitive action movie score.
I'd argue that ALIENS is kind of in a precarious position insofar as its influence is concerned because it's such an amalgam of its own influences. Horner was taking from Khachaturian, taking from Goldsmith, taking from himself. At the same time, Williams was certainly taking a cue from Korngold when he wrote STAR WARS (though not, like Horner, literally). The final product works wonders in the movie and Bishop's countdown was all over the place, but in terms of direct influence, eh, I dunno. I tend to think LETHAL WEAPON had a bigger influence.
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post #42 of 46
9/3/08 at 10:23pm
Superman and Batman need to be on here. There wasn't great music in a superhero movie since then until The Incredibles. It was something the Spider-Man movies needed, as well as Iron Man.
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post #43 of 46
9/3/08 at 10:28pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes View Post
Superman and Batman need to be on here. There wasn't great music in a superhero movie since then until The Incredibles. It was something the Spider-Man movies needed, as well as Iron Man.
The idea of a big theme for your character wasn't native to Superman or Batman though. Superman was basically just an extension of the leitmotivic approach from STAR WARS. BATMAN was great but it was just theme and variation. Strictly speaking, it didn't so much influence the landscape at large as put Danny Elfman up for every superhero movie.
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post #44 of 46
9/3/08 at 10:33pm
It's Star Wars. That's the first thing that popped in my head when I saw the title of the post.
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post #45 of 46
9/3/08 at 11:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
I woulda picked like Bride of Frankenstein or something.
Isn't it fun being old?

What's interesting about the composers through most of the 20th century is that their influences aren't other film composers (there weren't any when they were coming up) but figures from the symphony hall: Gershwin, Stravinsky (I mentioned Copland), and later on, Bernstein-- all of whom dabbled in film but made their more important contributions elsewhere. Indeed, Prokofiev, Korngold and Herrmann considered their movie work a sideline to their operas, ballets, and oratorios.

If Williams deserves the top spot on the poll, it's not because he made soundtrack recordings profitable (I have a battered double LP for Rosza's Ben-Hur that speaks to that point) but because he made being known primarily as a film composer respectable.

edit: May that last statement prompt a heated discussion of Henry Mancini. That would be awesome.
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post #46 of 46
9/8/08 at 12:20am
Seriously, the more I think about it, Mancini had a tremendous influence. Especially re: selling soundtrack albums.
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