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Today we are all Georgians ... to the tune of $1b

post #1 of 45
9/8/08 at 2:42pm
Thread Starter 
Even though New Orleans didn't get $1b, even though Georgia provoked Russia by invading S. Ossetia first, even though we're trillions in debt to China, the US just pledged $1b to Georgia.

This isn't money that you and I are going to have to pay for now. This is money that we, our children and our grandchildren will be paying interest on for years to come.
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post #2 of 45
9/8/08 at 2:47pm
Yeah! Screw Georgia!
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post #3 of 45
9/8/08 at 2:48pm
Thread Starter 
Hey Sonic Boom, if you were asked to take a percentage out of your paycheck every week to go directly to Georgia, would you be OK with that?
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post #4 of 45
9/8/08 at 2:51pm
Is that going to happen?

EDIT: Look, the taxes come out of my paychecks. Does it sting sometimes seeing how much goes? Of course. If I know a tiny, tiny portion of it was going to help a tiny nation of people overseas who really need it, I'm not going to be pissed about. It's the way things go. Better it's helping someone then helping no one.
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post #5 of 45
9/8/08 at 2:55pm
Thread Starter 
It's a theoretical question.
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post #6 of 45
9/8/08 at 2:57pm
Biden proposed the 1 Billion. taking money out of my paycheck does seem intune with the Obama campaign.
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post #7 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:00pm
I would have thought you'd be for this, yt. Everything the government does comes out of our paychecks, and a lot of it is a lot worse than this (actually this isn't even bad.)
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post #8 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:00pm
Oh well, it's cool that Biden is the one calling for it. When Cheney does it....bleh.
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post #9 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:01pm
Do you support any humanitarian aid, yt?
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post #10 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:08pm
Thread Starter 
I'm totally in favor of humanitarian aid, as you all know, but the fact that Cheney, Rice, Rove, McCain et al have a high probability of encouraging Georgia's invasion of South Ossetia, which provoked Russia to invade and go overboard with the smack-down, is what bothers me about this.

And in the paycheck question, the answer is -- when we owe trillions in debt, a percentage of our paycheck goes into paying the INTEREST! And when I think humanitarian aid, I can't help thinking of the people in our own country who need it and don't get it, like the victims of Katrina in which 2000 people died and thousands more were displaced.
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post #11 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:08pm
If you don't support this kind of aid, what can you support?
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post #12 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
And in the paycheck question, the answer is -- when we owe trillions in debt, a percentage of our paycheck goes into paying the INTEREST! And when I think humanitarian aid, I can't help thinking of the people in our own country who need it and don't get it, like the victims of Katrina in which 2000 people died and thousands more were displaced.
The Katrina victims got a $2000 debit card from the government on top of a whole bunch of aid and shelter..
This aid equals about $215.94 per person for Georgia....

Population: 4,630,841 (July 2008 est.)

edit -- in all fairness those numbers were before Russia slaughtered a whole bunch of them... they may be getting close to $300 per person... bastards.
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post #13 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:19pm
Because $2000 will replace a house or a car.

And I'm sure every single penny of that $1 billion will trickle down to the people of Georgia.
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post #14 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:23pm
Thread Starter 
You sound like Barbara Bush, who crowed that living in a cramped shelter had "really worked out well for them." And those asbestos trailers. Very "let them eat cake" of you, Snaieke.
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post #15 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:24pm
That's what insurance is for...
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post #16 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:26pm
I hope you lose your kid, Snaieke.
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post #17 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:26pm
Thread Starter 
Is that the country you want to live in, where people are left to rot and die because they didn't have (overpriced, government-coddled) insurance? Is that who you want to be? Is that the world you want your children to grow up in?
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post #18 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
You sound like Barbara Bush, who crowed that living in a cramped shelter had "really worked out well for them." And those asbestos trailers. Very "let them eat cake" of you, Snaieke.
As opposed to your "Let Georgia suffer, those fuckers deserved to die and suffer" mentality? Give me a break.
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post #19 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
As opposed to your "Let Georgia suffer, those fuckers deserved to die and suffer" mentality? Give me a break.
But it's okay to casually dismiss thousands of our own citizens with "they should have had insurance."
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post #20 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:40pm
Can we please take the whole Katrina issue off the table here? It was a pointless analogy to begin with, and masks the real issue, which is this:

yt apparently thinks that, since the Bush Administration somehow instigated the Russian invasion of Georgia, the innocent Georgians are undeserving of aid.
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post #21 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
But it's okay to casually dismiss thousands of our own citizens with "they should have had insurance."
Dude, Katrina's in the past and there has been over 100+ billion given out between insurance and government help and charities. 319,000 people were displaced, you're telling me none of them got aid? That's what YT is advocating on here.. why give money to Georgia when we can give it to those poor victims of Katrina, which by the way... reads as "those fuckers deseved to die for poking a bees nest, give them nothing and let them suffer!"

edit -- It is of imporance to note. I don't think YT actually wanted them to die but that's how she's coming off, to me. I think she's just a little blinded by the links to the current administration to realize what she's typing... or how she's phrasing it. Every other post in her history seems to indicate that isn't her intent.
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post #22 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
I hope you lose your kid, Snaieke.
The voice of CHUD.com
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post #23 of 45
9/8/08 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe LeFors View Post
Can we please take the whole Katrina issue off the table here? It was a pointless analogy to begin with, and masks the real issue, which is this:

yt apparently thinks that, since the Bush Administration somehow instigated the Russian invasion of Georgia, the innocent Georgians are undeserving of aid.
Thank you. What does Katrina have to do with this?

Apparently, aid is a good thing to do....if only it wasn't Dick Cheney who said it. Then it's really all about what wrong he did in this situation.
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post #24 of 45
9/8/08 at 4:04pm
"yt doesn't want people in need to have money!"

You guys are fucking shitting me, right?
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post #25 of 45
9/8/08 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
Dude, Katrina's in the past and there has been over 100+ billion given out between insurance and government help and charities. 319,000 people were displaced, you're telling me none of them got aid? That's what YT is advocating on here.. why give money to Georgia when we can give it to those poor victims of Katrina, which by the way... reads as "those fuckers deseved to die for poking a bees nest, give them nothing and let them suffer!"

edit -- It is of imporance to note. I don't think YT actually wanted them to die but that's how she's coming off, to me. I think she's just a little blinded by the links to the current administration to realize what she's typing... or how she's phrasing it. Every other post in her history seems to indicate that isn't her intent.
America has a responsibility to its citizens, Snaieke. That's the difference. The U.S. simply has no place supporting Georgia right now. I'd love it if the U.S. could support all ravaged-nations, but we can't and certainly not now. Furthermore, why is the U.S. sending aid to Georgie but not Darfur or Tibet? The recentness of one doesn't decrease the amount of suffering experienced by the others. Maybe if we weren't hundreds of billions of dollars in debt right now for a war that has no end in sight we could provide this kind of aid. But the reality is that this is the equivalent of making a large contribution to charity on a credit card when you're already massively in debt.
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post #26 of 45
9/8/08 at 4:23pm
I don't think yt doesn't care about people in need. My issue with this thread is that it's based on 2 flawed premises: 1) Georgia somehow provoked the invasion, at the urging of Bush administration officials (nonsensical), and 2) A billion dollars in aid is more than the government spent on Katrina (irrelevant and inaccurate). On top of that, a billion dollars in foreign aid is a drop in the national debt bucket, so to argue against it on that basis is pretty weak sauce.
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post #27 of 45
9/8/08 at 4:27pm
It's 1 billion that could be better spent here. Also, why Georgia and not other countries in need?
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post #28 of 45
9/8/08 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Goldberg View Post
America has a responsibility to its citizens, Snaieke. That's the difference. The U.S. simply has no place supporting Georgia right now. I'd love it if the U.S. could support all ravaged-nations, but we can't and certainly not now. Furthermore, why is the U.S. sending aid to Georgie but not Darfur or Tibet? The recentness of one doesn't decrease the amount of suffering experienced by the others. Maybe if we weren't hundreds of billions of dollars in debt right now for a war that has no end in sight we could provide this kind of aid. But the reality is that this is the equivalent of making a large contribution to charity on a credit card when you're already massively in debt.
Hey, I'm all for all the support to Tibet and Darfur but something I think you're overlooking in this question is; Tibet is under the Chinese control and sending aid is impossible. Darfur is part of the Sudan and the UN had to step in on that one and we can send aid now... but everyone seems to want to forget that exists.

As to Georgia.. our GDP is in the trillions while they're less then 10 billion I believe (or close to that). Their national budget is around 3 billion a year, this is some monumental aid we're giving them and while I feel maybe questioning the amount may be more appropriate questioning the aid should not. It's easy for us to recoup that billion, while it would take Georgia years maybe even a decade depending upon how badly they have been destroyed. (Biden made it out to be bad)

I don't buy into the logic that we shouldn't give international aid. I just believe it should be the right kind of aid.
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post #29 of 45
9/8/08 at 4:28pm
Both of those arguments are superior to the ones that started this thread.

(ETA: Response to Goldberg)
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post #30 of 45
9/8/08 at 4:33pm
Because no one is stepping up to the plate for Georgia and no one will. -- To Goldberg

The UN won't intervine because of Russia's veto power and they're not in NATO
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post #31 of 45
9/8/08 at 4:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Goldberg View Post
Furthermore, why is the U.S. sending aid to Georgie but not Darfur or Tibet?
http://www.usaid.gov/locations/sub-s...an/darfur.html

Total FY 2005 USG Humanitarian Assistance for the Darfur Emergency (to date): $509,532,362
Total FY 2003 – 2005 USG Humanitarian Assistance for the Darfur Emergency: $767,978,042
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post #32 of 45
9/8/08 at 4:35pm
Thread Starter 
But, Joe LeFors, Georgia did provoke the invasion. Georgia invaded South Ossetia first, killing thousands of South Ossetians. That invasion provoked Russia to flatten Georgia. It would be like if Cuba invaded Mexico, provoking the US to invade Cuba. Go ahead and check up on this. It's a fact. The administration, John McCain and the "librul media" just haven't framed it this way because in the PNAC/oil-uber-alles corridors, the US is working all the satellite eastern Europeans it can to maintain access to eastern oil channels.

And in terms of whether I care or not about people suffering, Matt Golberg summed it up pretty well. We're looking out for our oil interests and buttering up the hotheaded Shakaashvili. I'm sure if the PNAC crowd had its way and if we didn't need Russia to talk to Iran and N. Korea, it wouldn't be money we'd be supplying but World War III. This conflict has created a hair-trigger of instability in that region.

And saying that Katrina has nothing to do with this is total BS. Katrina has EVERYTHING to do with this. Our infrastructure and ability to harness our government in cases of national crisis is taking a massive toll under this administration's lust to privatize everything and pursue imperialistic wars for the business interests of those in charge.

Bush and McCain ate birthday cake while poor people were left to rot and die. That fact has been swept under the rug, but that's a preview of coming attractions if this crowd is voted into office for another term, as catastrophic climate change continues to accelerate.
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post #33 of 45
9/8/08 at 4:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
Because no one is stepping up to the plate for Georgia and no one will. -- To Goldberg

The UN won't intervine because of Russia's veto power and they're not in NATO
The UN won't intervene because there's deep division within the UN between those who continue to trust the US and those who don't. Russia can clamp down on Europe in a heartbeat if it so chooses in a vast number of ways, the least of which is raising prices on the oil it controls.
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post #34 of 45
9/8/08 at 4:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
But, Joe LeFors, Georgia did provoke the invasion. Georgia invaded South Ossetia first, killing thousands of South Ossetians. That invasion provoked Russia to flatten Georgia.
<tinfoil conspiracy hat on>Which allowed Russia to be painted as the Soviet Union reborn. Which scared the shit out of Poland and the Czech Republic. Which let us put missiles in their countries. Convenient, huh?<tinfoil conspiracy hat off>
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post #35 of 45
9/8/08 at 4:48pm
Thread Starter 
It's a very scary time for Eastern nations looking to become viable democracies. Russia and the US both want their loyalty, but if it comes down to a bare knuckle fight, who can they trust to back them up? That's really what it has come down to.
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post #36 of 45
9/8/08 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
http://www.usaid.gov/locations/sub-s...an/darfur.html

Total FY 2005 USG Humanitarian Assistance for the Darfur Emergency (to date): $509,532,362
Total FY 2003 – 2005 USG Humanitarian Assistance for the Darfur Emergency: $767,978,042
So, not $1b? A crisis that's been going on longer and is more widespread receives less funding than Georgia?
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post #37 of 45
9/8/08 at 5:00pm
Did you notice the dates?
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post #38 of 45
9/8/08 at 5:04pm
Thread Starter 
Look at the difference in populations, the numbers of people in need of help in Darfur versus the violence in Georgia. I'm not saying I'm against humanitarian aid to Georgia, but Jesus - don't try to pretend this is anything but a political ploy on a number of fronts, and a DEEPLY ill thought-out one. If we encouraged Saakashvili to invade S. Ossetia, now we're paying the price for it, and I seriously doubt enough Americans understand what's even going on over there, so if it was done to benefit McCain, I don't think it even moved the needle.
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post #39 of 45
9/8/08 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
Did you notice the dates?
I did, but that's a hefty lump sum to Georgia while those other countries get half that amount over the course of an entire year.
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post #40 of 45
9/8/08 at 5:19pm
My point is not even about Georgia, but your post seemed to imply we haven't sent anything to Darfur!
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post #41 of 45
9/8/08 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
Look at the difference in populations, the numbers of people in need of help in Darfur versus the violence in Georgia. I'm not saying I'm against humanitarian aid to Georgia, but Jesus - don't try to pretend this is anything but a political ploy on a number of fronts, and a DEEPLY ill thought-out one. If we encouraged Saakashvili to invade S. Ossetia, now we're paying the price for it, and I seriously doubt enough Americans understand what's even going on over there, so if it was done to benefit McCain, I don't think it even moved the needle.
Biden was the one who requested it... Biden is Obama's VP.
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post #42 of 45
9/8/08 at 5:28pm
1 Billion huh?

Is that like the cost of 8 hrs. of Iraq war?
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post #43 of 45
9/8/08 at 5:47pm
Hey, can some of you guys send me money?
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post #44 of 45
9/8/08 at 5:48pm
I got $1337 in my wallet, what's your fax number?
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post #45 of 45
9/8/08 at 6:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Goldberg View Post
why Georgia and not other countries in need?
This is no argument at all, because no matter whom we help, you can always say "why not X and not Y?" Plus, even if another country is ten times more deserving of aid, that doesn't mean it hurts to help Georgia, especially since we're clearly not worried about getting into debt.
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