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The economy - oops - Page 44

post #2151 of 2963

Seems a good chunk of the initial cut is coming straight outta the defense budget, with a backdoor trigger that will enable even larger chunks if Republicans play ball. As much as I love me some Michael Bay military propaganda, let's put a lot of that elsewhere. We're number one by a wide margin (I think the next five biggest militaries combined spend what we do). And without cuts to SS, Medicare and Medicaid? I'm actually quite impressed at the gamesmanship on some level.

post #2152 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence Boddicker View Post

The political process currently mirrors the Grover Cleveland, William McKinley era when both parties were right-wing, pro-business institutions. We'll need a Teddy Roosevelt or a real depression before people finally wake up and stop electing these elitists.


Politics aren't going to cure the systemic failure we've witnessed in our current Economic model.  The wingnuts are right on one point: Government is part of the problem.  It's going to take a massive grassroots level movement for real change to be implemented and I don't think the American people, as a whole, are brave or interested enough to undertake something on that scale. Which is also why the wingnuts in the Tea Party and Ron Paul gained traction: the path of least resistance (No more evil Big Guberment giving your hard earned tax dollars to lazy minorities and people that don't want to pull themselves up by their bootstraps!) with a good dose of class and race inspired fear mongering.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Happenin View Post

Seems a good chunk of the initial cut is coming straight outta the defense budget, with a backdoor trigger that will enable even larger chunks if Republicans play ball. As much as I love me some Michael Bay military propaganda, let's put a lot of that elsewhere. We're number one by a wide margin (I think the next five biggest militaries combined spend what we do). And without cuts to SS, Medicare and Medicaid? I'm actually quite impressed at the gamesmanship on some level.


I'm all for decreased Defense budgets but at this point you're dousing the four alarm fire with a thimble.

 

post #2153 of 2963

Chumps.  The lot of them.

 

Quote:
If your conclusion is that Democrats got rolled because the President is a lousy negotiator, I disagree.  Not on his negotiating skills…as someone said in comments, I wouldn’t want him in the auto showroom with me when I’m bargaining for a better price.  I disagree that better negotiating skills would have made a big difference. The problem goes much deeper. ...

 

Namely, that most people in the US--including especially those for whom voting in favor of conservative politicians espousing such policies is completely contrary to their economic self-interest--are conservative.  That's why they're all chumps.  The greatest trick the Republican party ever pulled was making poor, white folks believe that the GOP is the sole steward of their interests.

post #2154 of 2963

God I wish it were true we could avoid defaulting eventually. I hope with all that I am that this deal and what comes of it becomes a positive.

post #2155 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post

Chumps.  The lot of them.

 

 

Namely, that most people in the US--including especially those for whom voting in favor of conservative politicians espousing such policies is completely contrary to their economic self-interest--are conservative.  That's why they're all chumps.  The greatest trick the Republican party ever pulled was making poor, white folks believe that the GOP is the sole steward of their interests.


Change is feared by those of low intelligence so of course the majority of people are conservative - it's exactly he same here as well. We live in spoiled, entitled countries where people are comparatively well off and as such overly comfortable.

 

post #2156 of 2963

I don't blame low intelligence or poor whites.  I blame fear and selfishness on the part of the (shrinking) middle and working classes.  They're selling these people that you won't have your chance to get into the millionaire's club or take away your consumer based lifestyle with all your trinkets if you don't go along.  This group (predominately white and better educated in most regards than their minority counterparts) aren't as politically or socially organized and conscious as poor or working class minorities.

 

Race has always been used as a divisive tool to shatter solidarity among class and this is firmly a class war.  The foot soldiers are just being brainwashed to believe that their shot at being "one of them" is at stake and they'll end up like the "blacks and Mexicans" if they don't vote for policy that helps them zero and enriches people that could give a flying fuck about them. 

post #2157 of 2963

I wasn't sure where to post this but this seems like as a good a thread as any. Here's a great article from Salon regarding the Tea-Party Movement and how it is  basically a Southern neo-Confederate Dixiecrat-like Party of angry old white people. A totally regionaly party that would be doing a lot of us a favor by just secceding from the U.S.

http://www.salon.com/news/tea_parties/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/08/02/lind_tea_party

post #2158 of 2963

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/08/video-of-the-day-jon-stewart-compares-marc-ambinder-to-harry-potter/242935/

 

It's so frustrating to know that Obama could have negotiated the debt limit as part of the package in which Repubs succeeded in extending the Bush tax cuts.

post #2159 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/08/video-of-the-day-jon-stewart-compares-marc-ambinder-to-harry-potter/242935/

 

It's so frustrating to know that Obama could have negotiated the debt limit as part of the package in which Repubs succeeded in extending the Bush tax cuts.



That video should single handily bring down his presidency because it makes him look like an ineffectual, naive buffoon in light of recent events.

 

There are legions of Conservative Republicans who think George H.W. should have drug this country straight to hell rather than renege on his "read my lips" pledge despite that it helped save the economy (for a time) at the expense of his re-election.  I'm with them: The President should have done the right thing and told them all to go straight to hell.  Instead he got caught in a political game of chicken and he swerved out of the way.

 

 

post #2160 of 2963

I posted that link on Facebook and had a lengthy conversation with yt. Hopefully she won't mind me reposting her comments, but she makes some good points. I hope she's right; that Obama knows what he's doing. But it is hard to tell because it isn't really clear what his end goals are and how he hopes to accomplish them. Perhaps that is best so the Reps don't out-strategize him. But in the meantime Obama's tactics are leaving his supporters cold.

 

Quote:
I'm hopeful that Obama knew exactly how this would play out, that he's looking at the long view. And if you look at the statistics for the 2010 midterms (I will look for the link) you'll see that voting was not down on the right, particularly the "tea party" right, anywhere near as precipitously as it was on the left. Turnout was miserable, and right wingers swept not only into the House but into the legislatures of a huge number of states. Obama disenchantment is a so far extremely successful campaign among the Carl Roves of the world. This is a fact. I think Obama's deliberately emphasizing the need to increase revenue while knowing full well that this House will NEVER pass legislation that in any way includes tax increases, even to close loopholes and let the Bush tax cuts expire. You have to remember that most Americans are not paying attention. I think he wants this message from him to cut through the noise and the reach non-political types so that when the Bush tax cuts automatically sunset (which they're scheduled to do in 2012), the GOP will have to pass legislation to extend them and I think Obama is banking on the fact that by then Americans will understand the insanity of that. It will also be impossible with the "super congress" arrangement. He will veto anything that comes through that process that doesn't include revenue, and then the sacred cows of the establishment right--military spending and farm subsidies--will automatically be cut. This is all very wonky, but you have to remember that Obama is saddled with a House run by nutcases. All financial legislation originates in the House by law. Notice how nothing involving jobs or the economy has even been whispered about? The Dems have written tons of legislation but they can't get it on the floor because of John Boehner and Eric Cantor. I don't think Obama's a sellout or "caving" or anything like that. I think he's dealing with the realities of his job. I wish the Dems could get airtime to talk about what's important--meaning, jobs and the economy, not the debt--but the corporate media is not interested.\

 

post #2161 of 2963

God I'm so sick of the "Obama is playing chess, everyone else is playing checkers" bullshit.

 

If he is indeed playing chess, dude got checkmated a while ago.

post #2162 of 2963

PS Tell yt I said hello.

post #2163 of 2963

I think it is funny that YT still clings to her Democrat party and her blind allegiance to Obama in the face of the Super Congress.  The Super Congress is a reactionary measure of the status quo borne of the "[Tea Partiers sweeping] not only into the House but into the legislatures of a huge number of states."  Entrenched Washington bureaucrats just sent a message to the plebs that their nobility will not be overcome.  We are Rome and the Republic died, if it were even still alive, yesterday.

 

Despite there being budgetary commissions in the past this one reeks to high heaven.

post #2164 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post

I think it is funny that YT still clings to her Democrat party and her blind allegiance to Obama in the face of the Super Congress. 



Kinda like how you cling to the rightwing in the face of all human decency, isn't it.

post #2165 of 2963

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post

I think it is funny that YT still clings to her Democrat party and her blind allegiance to Obama in the face of the Super Congress.  The Super Congress is a reactionary measure of the status quo borne of the "[Tea Partiers sweeping] not only into the House but into the legislatures of a huge number of states."  Entrenched Washington bureaucrats just sent a message to the plebs that their nobility will not be overcome.  We are Rome and the Republic died, if it were even still alive, yesterday.

 

Despite there being budgetary commissions in the past this one reeks to high heaven.


While she does champion Obama, yt doesn't champion the Dems. In fact she's argued that the two party system is a joke and that people disenchanted with Dems need to funnel their energy into changing how we do elections.

 

post #2166 of 2963

In other news, I scored a free ticket to Obama's soiree tonight here in Chicago.  I'll be sure to direct him to this thread if I get a chance.  Maybe have him start on page 39?

post #2167 of 2963

Do it.

post #2168 of 2963

Haha that's awesome give him a Fist Bump!

post #2169 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post


While she does champion Obama, yt doesn't champion the Dems. In fact she's argued that the two party system is a joke and that people disenchanted with Dems need to funnel their energy into changing how we do elections.

 


Glad to see she realizes somewhat that the system is broken.  She tended to very much lay the whole bought and paid for schtick down on the Republicans when it ought to be very clear nowadays that both parties are entrenched with backdoor money running the show.

 

post #2170 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.S. Randlett View Post

Do it.


Should probably go back and edit a few of my posts first.

 

post #2171 of 2963


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post

God I'm so sick of the "Obama is playing chess, everyone else is playing checkers" bullshit.

 

If he is indeed playing chess, dude got checkmated a while ago.



Possibly, and at first I was thinking the same thing. I hate all the self-congratulatory back slapping over such routine, destructive bullshit.

But then I read this and I have a slightly interesting take on the whole thing.  The stuff about the way the Triggers work is especially interesting.  

post #2172 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post

In other news, I scored a free ticket to Obama's soiree tonight here in Chicago.  I'll be sure to direct him to this thread if I get a chance.  Maybe have him start on page 39?



Can you get a prison sentence for calling the POTUS a naive, ineffectual buffoon?  I hope to find out.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post




Glad to see she realizes somewhat that the system is broken.  She tended to very much lay the whole bought and paid for schtick down on the Republicans when it ought to be very clear nowadays that both parties are entrenched with backdoor money running the show.

 

The systems been broken since the founding of the damn thing. The only thing that's really changed is the scope and power of forces outside of the electorate (and the citizenry itself) who have a direct (and I'd argue detrimental) influence upon it and the governments they empower.
 

 

post #2173 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post





Can you get a prison sentence for calling the POTUS a naive, ineffectual buffoon?  I hope to find out.


 

 


Perhaps in Russia.

 

Plus, I don't think I've ever referred to him as naive or a buffoon.  I just think he sucks at his job.

 

post #2174 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post


The systems been broken since the founding of the damn thing. The only thing that's really changed is the scope and power of forces outside of the electorate (and the citizenry itself) who have a direct (and I'd argue detrimental) influence upon it and the governments they empower.
 

 


Obviously I disagree, the system was a fine system.  It wasn't until the system began being misrepresented as a democracy that things began going to shit.

 

post #2175 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post




Perhaps in Russia.

 

Plus, I don't think I've ever referred to him as naive or a buffoon.  I just think he sucks at his job.

 




No, that was me.  And the President isn't a magic wizard or a dictator but he's becoming more Clinton-esque by the day without a bubble economy to hide behind.

post #2176 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post


 



Possibly, and at first I was thinking the same thing. I hate all the self-congratulatory back slapping over such routine, destructive bullshit.

But then I read this and I have a slightly interesting take on the whole thing.  The stuff about the way the Triggers work is especially interesting.  



Didnt realize this:

 

 

Quote:
If the Committee does not succeed in meaningful balanced deficit reduction with revenue-raising tax reform on the most well-off by the end of 2012, the President can use his veto pen to raise nearly $1 trillion from the most well-off by vetoing any extension of the Bush high income tax cuts.

 

Good for him.  When the time comes (and I think we can all agree that it will) and Obama is presented with this opportunity, let's see if he actually takes advantage of it.

post #2177 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post






No, that was me.  And the President isn't a magic wizard or a dictator but he's becoming more Clinton-esque by the day without a bubble economy to hide behind.



Ah, my bad.  I'll do my best to pass along the message then.

post #2178 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post




Obviously I disagree, the system was a fine system.  It wasn't until the system began being misrepresented as a democracy that things began going to shit.

 

 

The system was flawed but it had potential.  Every argument in modern day American government can be directly traced to the very founding of the country.  The rhetoric may change but the underlying themes and issues never have.

 

Of course I have and always will be a proponent of the theory that what does not change or adapt will eventually perish. It's an evolutionary principle applied to political thinking but here, at least, exists a system in place where that sort of adaptive change is at least possible.
 

 

post #2179 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post

Didnt realize this:

 

 

 

Good for him.  When the time comes (and I think we can all agree that it will) and Obama is presented with this opportunity, let's see if he actually takes advantage of it.

Your quote said end of 2012.  I hope to God he doesn't have the opportunity even as a parting fucking shot.
 

 

post #2180 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post

Possibly, and at first I was thinking the same thing. I hate all the self-congratulatory back slapping over such routine, destructive bullshit.

But then I read this and I have a slightly interesting take on the whole thing.  The stuff about the way the Triggers work is especially interesting.  



Thanks for this. Definite food for thought.

post #2181 of 2963

Heh

 

Drunken Ben Bernanke Tells Everyone At Neighborhood Bar How Screwed U.S. Economy Really Is

http://www.theonion.com/articles/drunken-ben-bernanke-tells-everyone-at-neighborhoo,21059/

post #2182 of 2963
Thread Starter 
That really made my day, thanks.
post #2183 of 2963
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post



Your quote said end of 2012.  I hope to God he doesn't have the opportunity even as a parting fucking shot.
 

 


It would only set taxes back at Clinton era levels. They are already at their lowest level for 50 years.
post #2184 of 2963

It's never enough, Bluelou. It'll never be low enough for these assholes.

post #2185 of 2963
Thread Starter 
Yeah. Whatever happened to the Simpson-Bowles deficit report? Now the debt farce is over will they use any of it, or is it dead? It seemed quite sensible.
post #2186 of 2963

Sensible solutions = enemies of the state.

 

Meanwhile, days like today remind me why I'm happy I don't manage portfolios anymore.  Christ on a crotch.

post #2187 of 2963

Yeah, good thing they "compromised" in time.  Good thing they dragged it out forever and then took the rest of the summer off.  Good thing they're so focused on jobs and the economy.  Fucking bullshit makes me sick.

 

But seriously, imagine if they hadn't reached a deal.  What a bunch of assclowns.  

post #2188 of 2963

Hey, they worked hard!! Even a few hours on the weekends!!!  (sarcasm)

post #2189 of 2963

Yea,  Harry Reid had to miss his fig trees blooming. Try to have some empathy.

post #2190 of 2963

Hey, The Closer, fill us in on your Soiree with El Presidente. How was the chicken? Did you get a chance to confront Obama with your critique of his Presidency?

post #2191 of 2963

Those Presidents sure know how to throw a party. 

 

Had a decent time.  One of my clients who I work closely with (hence the free ticket) used to be head of fundraising for the DNC and worked on Hillary's, Gore's, and Quinn's campaign so I got to meet a lot of interesting folks.  Traded a funny story with Rahm Emanuel (my wife, who was born in Canada, ran into him while he was shaking hands at an El station about a month before the election.  He went to make baby kissing vote-for-me smalltalk with her, and she replied "I dont want to waste your time - Im not a citizen and can't vote."  He said "bring your husband down here.").  He seems like a douche.

 

Tried to bust out this thread on my Samsung and show Obama but the bastard wouldn't give me the time of day.  He probably read my posts in advance and knew he would have gotten some knowledge bombs dropped on him so he avoided me.

 

But yeah, only saw him from afar.  Still gives a helluva speech.

post #2192 of 2963

The Closer.  That's so funny ... Represent!

post #2193 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post

Sensible solutions = enemies of the state.

 

Meanwhile, days like today remind me why I'm happy I don't manage portfolios anymore.  Christ on a crotch.


If lobbyists paid in common sense we'd have a better country.

 

I don't know about you guys but when I spend more than I make I'm usually in trouble and I need to either a. make more money or b. prioritize what's important over what's not or c. find ways to save money.

 

 

 

post #2194 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post

Those Presidents sure know how to throw a party.

 

But yeah, only saw him from afar.  Still gives a helluva speech.



He's so fucking good. I could listen to him give me oral pleasure all day!

post #2195 of 2963

[gulp]

post #2196 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post





He's so fucking good. I could listen to him give me oral pleasure all day!


Same here.

 

Wait, what?

 

post #2197 of 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post




If lobbyists paid in common sense we'd have a better country.

 

I don't know about you guys but when I spend more than I make I'm usually in trouble and I need to either a. make more money or b. prioritize what's important over what's not or c. find ways to save money.

 

 

 




What about getting a second job or start charging rent from the slacker brother that lives in the guest room but blows all his money on gambling?

post #2198 of 2963
Thread Starter 
The ECB had better start buying Italian and Spanish bonds quickly. Then, in an ideal world, EU politicians would finally get their shit together and organise structural reform. No more temporary bailouts. But this is not an ideal world.

At least the jobs stat was good.
post #2199 of 2963

Christ I hate being right.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/sandp-considering-first-downgrade-of-us-credit-rating/2011/08/05/gIQAqKeIxI_print.html

 

 

Quote:
Standard & Poor’s announced Friday night that it has downgraded the sterling U.S. credit rating for the first time.

 

 

post #2200 of 2963

Question: Why does Standard and Poor's have any credibility with anyone after their numerous failures during the last decade?

 

OH and from the Wall Street Journal: Treasury officials noticed a $2 trillion error in S&P's math that delayed an announcement for several hours. S&P officials decided to move ahead anyway, and after 8 p.m. they made their downgrade official.

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