Illegal Immigration Thread

Illegals stole my job, my language, and then beat me up and stole my wallet!

I have a friend who is voting for Obama because he thinks he's going to be tougher against illegal immigrants than McCain ... discuss ...

I'm ignorant about the issue, very liberal about illegals, and eager to learn from more knowledgeable chewers. So, in other words: subscribed.

They're "undocumented" immigrants, guys. Come on.

The issue doesn't really impact me too much. I think it's interesting to compare the way this issue and then H1B visa problem. At their cores, many people use the same arguments "there aren't people in the US to do these jobs" or "you just want to pay people less and know that these circumstances allow the employer a greater position of power."

I'm unsure of the stats, but Jacob, your probably in the minority for the fact that you require them to pay taxes.

If they work here and pay taxes just like anyone else, hand them a work vista or whatever it takes and lets stop wasting time eyeballing our borders for illegals.

An illegal immigrant murdered my family.

Oh sorry, maybe the anecdote thread is somewhere else.

I have nothing against illegals per se, in fact 99.99% of them could be here just to live a better life and that whole line, and that's fine. In fact I empathize with them and understand their plight, truly. Personally, I'm concerned with the dollars and cents.

And the bottom line is that billions are spent incarcerating, educating, and providing social services to the 20+ million undocumented people that now live in America. Many of which do not pay the same taxes that documented citizens pay. Yes some of them pay and receive no benefit. Even considering their contribution, it's estimated that undocumented immigrants cost the country 30 billion a year.

There are several studies out there about illegal immigrant-led households, and a bunch of regional studies that show illegal immigrants paying taxes and all that... and that's fine, I can't disagree with that. But the overall effect is negative financially.

I don't care about seeing duplicate instructions in Spanish at the DMV, I don't care about English being the 'national language', I'm not roaming the Texas border with a shotgun, I'm don't care about a Mexican stealing my job... I'm concerned about when or how this thing is slowed/stopped (impossible, of course) before it gets worse... because it's going to.

And they pay sales tax, of course.

Lots of claims of "estimates" and "studies", no hyperlinks.

But he's not here to convince you that illegal immigrants are a financial drain on society, so it's okay.

You need to think about immigrants without the correct documents authorizing them to work in the United States of America like you would people who rent a house. They clearly aren't as invested in the community as those who own in the same neighborhood; also, like renters, they want to stab you.

Okay, let's do some number correction first:

- The non-partisan Pew Hispanic Center puts the number of undocumented workers at about 12 million, not 20+.

- The cost of educating illegal immigrants is about $28 million, and you're actually not "considering their contribution" because that number goes down when you consider that these workers are not subject to the minimum wage nor any workplace protections.

Do illegal immigrants cost this country money? Absolutely. But we just spent $85 billion dollars this week in corporate welfare and I seriously doubt the AIG will be the last corporation we're forced to bailout. We spend $10 billion dollars a day in Iraq and the deficit is going to continue to explode if we keep the current tax cuts for the rich while borrowing endlessly from China. If you're honestly worried about the financial crisis in this country, then immigrants shouldn't be your biggest concern.

...

Those 12 million people have kids that go to the doctor's office too. I've read and heard over 20 million in the country, again and again and again. Workers aren't the only thing that we're talking about.

My sprained ankle doesn't go away because I recently got hit in the face with a shovel. No one here is saying this is the end of civilization, but it's a problem. No one is comparing this to the war.

The taxes thing was a different conversation, when someone commented that 'Spielberg and Trump can afford it'... Obama has a plan to help this country's economy and McCain doesn't, that wasn't the point.

The 12 million includes kids. You can point to "over 20 million" as much as you want but I've cited a non-partisan study. You've cited dick so your number is worthless.

Yeah, but that shovel to your face is going to take your mind off that sprained ankle real fast. And the shovel to the face may cause bleeding and possible brain damage. Stay off the sprained ankle and it will heal. Oh my God, this metaphor totally doesn't work anymore.

In the scheme of things, the financial drain of illegal immigration is insignificant. If we magically solved it tomorrow, no one's life would be better.

From here: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/bu...l?pagewanted=2.

Illegal immigrants put in more than they take away, in almost every conceivable way.

It's bullshit that the republicans lie about so they can divide people.

I read the editorials from David Broder and Bob Novak you posted from the election thread, and while I can recognize the clear conflict of interest between labor and the immigrant populace, I can't see how one can categorically say McCain is better for hispanics than Obama. Not to mention that both of those writers are quintessential voices of the Washington DC insider groupthink. (Broder's an idiot and Novak is satan.)

Obama may have introduced "poison pills" into Kyl-Kennedy (although the true circumstances behind his withdrawal of support is still up in the air,) but McCain has also said he wouldn't vote for his own immigration bill, so its not like his pro-immigration stance has done anyone any good when it came down to it either.

Here's what I think: The immigration issue is very complex for both sides because there are vocal pluralities in each party who are anti-immigration. Both candidates have histories of being strongly pro-immigration, and both have been chastened by the political realities of the electorate during an election year.

Why don't you guys just absorb Mexico already? Problem solved.

Hey you know what? Let's keep the illegals and send the "native born" Americans to Mexico!

Almost every interaction I've had with immigrant (legal or otherwise: I don't card anyone) has been way more straightforward, non-saturated with deceit and bullshit, and pleasant compared to interactions with "Americans".

That's right: I'm outing myself as an Anti-American American!

I actually advise a lot of employers on immigration issues and live in an area with a very high hispanic population, both legal and illegal. I don't trust most of the statistical studies but I trust my own eyes and ears (forgive me as I speak in anecdotal generalities):

Positives:
Most of these people work VERY hard and are focused first and foremost on being productive and getting ahead financially - very "American Way;"

If illegal immigrants aren't paying taxes, in my experience it is almost exclusively the employer's choice; where the employer plays by the rules, the workers have no problem with it;

Massively anecdotal, but I speak a little (teensy) bit of Spanish and I have NEVER met a hispanic immigrant of any age or either gender in any context who wasn't cordial if not downright friendly - at work, in the park with my dog, in a grocery store late at night, on the metro;

Negatives:
Many immigrants have no desire to put down roots here or contribute to the culture on a broader scale;

As with any immigrant group, some struggle and some of those who struggle turn to crime, petty or violent;

Those little stickers on the back of Totota 4-Runners with Calvin peeing on a Ford logo

If every illegal immigrant in the Mid-Atlantic disappeared tonight, tomorrow the construction labor, industrial cleaning, restaurant, landscaping, hotel and farming industries would be decimated. Fact (anecdotal, sure, but fact). DC United would also have 3 fans per game.

My simpleton opinion:

There is no doubt illegals do contribute to society, but at the same time are a cultural burden.

The issue shouldn't be about whether we should round them all up and put them on a bus/boat/plane, but rather how do we incorporate them to allow for education, medical care and labor protection.

First off the very word "illegal" means they are off to a bad start. If we need laborers who will work for less than the minimum wage and there are people from out of the U.S. willing to do that work, let them arrive and leave under controled circumstances. Let their employers be held accountable for setting aside tax that will help to cover services that their and teir families recieve while in the U.S. . Right now the drain on hospitals, police, sanitation, fire departments etc, is crushing. For those interesting in seeking a path of citizenship there needs to be certain minimum requirements not unlike those of Canada, Austrailia and...MEXICO. If you are Honduran you will not be welcome to Mexico with open arms simply because it is a better place to earn a living than Honduras. Mexico won't care if you are a political refugee either.

"Cultural burden"?

This is the main point, and the discussion I had with a friend last night. People who think illegal immigration is a significant factor of our economic decline really have no idea what they're talking about.

Not to mention you could make an argument that expelling all of them right away would affect the price of food.

Trying to explain to my gardener the delicate nature of the soil for the rose bushes without knowing a bit of mexican is a burden.

Your first "cultural burden" is not knowing there is no such thing as a "mexican" language.

Are you sure? I'm pretty that's what the Guatemalans, who building the extension on my house, were speaking the other day. Or maybe that was Guatemalanese? Who knows, it's all the same to me.

Cap, DFTT.

Hmm...I wonder what would happen if all of us cracker-tastic devils disappeared overnight. Might be interesting...

If "it's all the same to you", then you certainly aren't the one to start spouting off about culture when you could've learned something and still chose to be ignorant of it...clearly, any language more than english could be a burden to you.

I picture some of the people here watching AIRPLANE! and saying things like, "He really shouldn't force Betty to have an abortion. It's her choice as a woman whether or not to terminate her pregnancy, and there are all kinds of medical and ethical considerations of which he seems to have no comprehension."

They made a comic about that. It was called Y: The Last Min-Orities.

If you fellas want some information on our neighbors to the south. May I suggest this book?

With Pat Buchanan as the last white man out there. Talk about irony!

Why is that cockroach smoking a joint? I didn't know that pothead insects were a traditional Mexican stereotype.

Read the book. Believe me, all of your questions will be answered.

Let's not forget that not all immigrants are not of Mexican descent(not that I have any problem with Mexicans). A lot of them are European, and more importantly Eastern European. Do you realize how many beautiful women are in this country illegally?

Check out this website:

http://www.jedynka.com/index.cfm?lang=eng

This is a Polish speaking club in Chicago. Take a look at the Photo Gallery and specifically the Bikini and Body Painting events. Knowing a lot of Eastern Europeans myself (mostly women, cause my wife is from Belarus), a lot of them are illegal, but they are very hard working.... and amazingly attractive.

If this is what illegal immigration brings to our country. I say bring it on!

Hey, we all saw The Wire Season 2. We're aware about hot women being smuggled for white slavery.

Well, of course they're ok. The law of the land is if you're a hot woman, we'll overlook some of the things you do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Cucaracha

La cucaracha, la cucaracha
Ya no puede caminar
Porque no tiene, porque le falta
Marihuana que fumar.

Like I said, read the book. It's actually pretty damn hilarious and very informative.

I did not know that. Well, I knew of the song, obviously, but never knew what it meant or what any of the verses actually were. Thanks for the link!

There are other words to la cucaracha? My mind's been blown, and it's only 1 o'clock.

However no one has able to discern the exact words of "La Bamba".

Well, alls I know is that when I take my convertible down to Tijuana for a tuck and roll, I have to make sure they don't stuff it with horse shit.

Yeah, there are many versions of La Cucaracha, plus "extended" lyrics. As I kid, it was not uncommon to hear the "Marihuana " version.

Yes, I bet you are VERY familiar with that aspect of immigration.