Terminator 2: Judgement Day (1992) - Page 5

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Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rain Dog 

Michael Bay is the next obvious evolutionary step along the road paved by the Camerons and Tony Scotts of the world. Cameron is simply far more successful at it and because his Gone With The Wind On Water was showered in oscars and his Dances With Blue Man Group recently made so many people such a large amount of money, his output is somehow seen as more 'legitimate'or 'prestigious' - but make no mistake, Cameron may have convinced himself he's an artiste, but he's cynically exploiting the market just as much as Bay is - and whats worse the very people that point to Bays failing seem to be blind to many of Jims similarities.

I don't think Cameron thinks he's an artiste.  He's very much a blue collar type workman and his attitude reflects that.  Just listen to his interviews...I think it's the media that's given him that title.  His ego is huge, but he's earned it (the two highest grossing films of all time, beating his own record?  Its a lifetime pass as far as ego), and he seems to use his box office clout to ADVANCE cinema as a pioneer, not bang more supermodels like Bay...I don't see Bay or Spielberg inventing cameras or trying to better the workflow of filmmaking for the craftsmen.  Cameron's films can be a bit shallow with content, sure, but he's essentially an ACTION filmmaker.  He hasn't made E.T., or Schindler, or The Terminal.  He made Titanic because he wanted to dive the wreck, seriously that's the only reason he made it (yes, he admitted this many times)  And I find the very thing you accuse Cameron of can easily be attributable to Spielberg.  I think it's easy to lump Bay in with Cameron because they play in the same sandbox...but their films are night and fucking day.

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Again, I'll call "Rabbit Season" to your "Duck Season" sir as we'd simply be debating matters of taste.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rain Dog 

 

I don't like feeling I'm being cheaply manipulated and I don't like feeling like the film-maker assumes I'm an idiot. Camerons films do that with me quite a bit, especially in the last 15-20 years.

I dunno, Aliens, The Abyss, T2...I felt pretty smart watching those.  I think you're more offended by his last two films, which is fine, but we're talking about T2, which is before all that.

Personal taste, of course.  That's why I found it odd what you were saying in the beginning, like it was blaspheme to consider Cameron one of the top (if not THE) top action filmmakers and that one his actions films could be considered the best in that genre.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambler 

 

 

I dunno, Aliens, The Abyss, T2...I felt pretty smart watching those.  I think you're more offended by his last two films, which is fine, but we're talking about T2, which is before all that.

 

Personal taste, of course.  That's why I found it odd what you were saying in the beginning, like it was blaspheme to consider Cameron one of the top (if not THE) top action filmmakers and that one his actions films could be considered the best in that genre.

 

I see why others think that, I just don't personally agree.

Hell I'll say that The Abyss is the only film of Camerons left I still utterly adore, because it has actual well-drawn characters you give a shit about for once.

Aliens is a very cleverly crafted amusement ride to me these days and T2, well I personally don't love it all that much.

Again, I know I'm on the outer here, but seriously, Jim, fuck you with this mawkish crap...

Cheap, cynical and works a treat on many apparently. Again, just not for me.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rain Dog 

 

 

Cheap, cynical and works a treat on many apparently. Again, just not for me.

I didn't find it cheap and cynical at all.  There's more going on than just "the good natured robot".  The inhumane, brutal tank, carrying out a program that goes against it's very nature, as a reflection of how human beings have the potential to be monsters or saints, and what is the definition of "human"...I find that to be a very relevant and complex theme and works just as well as anything Spielberg or Jackson have done IMO.  The thumbs up I find to be funny and heartbreaking at the same time.
 

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Yeah I groaned when I saw that "thumbs up" in the theater. T2 hasn't aged that well to me, but man seeing it for the first time on the big screen was a treat. As for Cameron himself: the man has admitted he manufactures Blockbusters. In one interview he stated that he literally reviewed the most popular films released in the last few decades, and isolated common elements which he combined into his films. I don't think the man believes he's making soul changing Art; he's making immensely popular entertainments.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Cylon Baby 

 As for Cameron himself: the man has admitted he manufactures Blockbusters. In one interview he stated that he literally reviewed the most popular films released in the last few decades, and isolated common elements which he combined into his films. I don't think the man believes he's making soul changing Art; he's making immensely popular entertainments.

 

Same with Spielberg, Jackson and all the rest.  Yet these guys are somehow superior and Cameron is lumped in with Bay?  That argument I don't get.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambler 

 

I didn't find it cheap and cynical at all.  There's more going on than just "the good natured robot".  The inhumane, brutal tank, carrying out a program that goes against it's very nature, as a reflection of how human beings have the potential to be monsters or saints, and what is the definition of "human"...I find that to be a very relevant and complex theme and works just as well as anything Spielberg or Jackson have done IMO.  The thumbs up I find to be funny and heartbreaking at the same time.
 

 

Well the world don't move to the beat of just one drum...

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambler 

Same with Spielberg, Jackson and all the rest.  Yet these guys are somehow superior and Cameron is lumped in with Bay?  That argument I don't get.

He's lumped in with Bay because he doesn't do emotional resonance and when he attempts it achieves it in only the most rudimentary basic way.

Like I said, I like my emotional manipulators to be a little more subtle. 

He may do great action but his scripts and the stories he tells generally suck - thats why he's lumped in with Bay and not those others.

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Nah, I think what we're all quibbling about here is personal taste. I do roll my eyes at the 'boy and his terminator' stuff (the Flaming Thumbs-Up of Sacrifice topping that list) but I ultimately love the film for its other elements. If the mawkishness is a barrier for some, that's fine. I get that. It's just not so for me, not because I'm allowing myself to be manipulated but because I let Cameron have his 'feel-good' moments every now and again, because I know it'll generally be followed up with something awesome right away.

Then again, we probably all have directors with tendencies that just make us decidedly pissed off with no repair. For RD, it's Cameron. For me, it's Tim Burton. We all have at least one, but that doesn't mean that other people can't overlook those tendencies and pick out things they like in those films.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's allll good.

Fuck, I've become a right hippie.

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This is really bugging me. Why is this a new T2 thread? There are already existing discussions on this film. Now the dialog is being needlessly split into competing threads

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Workyticket 

Nah, I think what we're all quibbling about here is personal taste. I do roll my eyes at the 'boy and his terminator' stuff (the Flaming Thumbs-Up of Sacrifice topping that list) but I ultimately love the film for its other elements. If the mawkishness is a barrier for some, that's fine. I get that. It's just not so for me, not because I'm allowing myself to be manipulated but because I let Cameron have his 'feel-good' moments every now and again, because I know it'll generally be followed up with something awesome right away.

 

Then again, we probably all have directors with tendencies that just make us decidedly pissed off with no repair. For RD, it's Cameron. For me, it's Tim Burton. We all have at least one, but that doesn't mean that other people can't overlook those tendencies and pick out things they like in those films.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's allll good.

 

Fuck, I've become a right hippie.

Nice and all very true, at a certain point it really comes down to taste. The guys that either frustrate to downright-piss-me-off are the Camerons, the Tony Scotts and the Bays, the guys that not only get away with putting style before any kind of substance, but have made monstrously succesful careers out of it and are seemingly celebrated for same.

Thing is, and I cannot stress this enough, in no way am I saying anyone enjoying Camerons movies are easily manipulated themselves or stupid or whatever, Cameron simply pushes my buttons in the regards I've outlined is all, it's purely personal.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rain Dog 

He's lumped in with Bay because he doesn't do emotional resonance and when he attempts it achieves it in only the most rudimentary basic way.

 

Like I said, I like my emotional manipulators to be a little more subtle. 

 

He may do great action but his scripts and the stories he tells generally suck - thats why he's lumped in with Bay and not those others.

I'm confused about what emotional resonance is.  Are you talking about being heavy handed and simplistic when expressing emotions in his films?  Because again, he's essentially an action filmmaker.

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You say that like therefor he shouldn't give a shit about plot or character, afterall he's "just" an action director (seriously man, how little do you think of that genre?)

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Cameron has moved me with scenes of great emotion on a regular basis. I stand unashamed to admit I have wept openly during viewings of TERMINATOR, THE ABYSS, TITANIC, TERMINATOR 2 JUDGEMENT DAY, TRUE LIES,  AVATAR and ALIENS

They may be accessible and made for a mass audience, but they are not hollow, soulless films Iike those of Michael Bay. Cameron is a master filmmaker, and he uses those skills for more than spectacle alone

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Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rain Dog 

You say that like therefor he shouldn't give a shit about plot or character, afterall he's "just" an action director (seriously man, how little do you think of that genre?)

I'm saying the priorities are not emotional resonance in an action film, which primarily delivers thrills and spectacle.  Jurassic Park is a great action film, but the characters are poorly drawn and the emotional scenes, borderline silly.  Spielberg's action films are just as laughable in the emotional department as Cameron's IMO. 

But I guess we're just trading personal taste like you said.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Kate 

Cameron has moved me with scenes of great emotion on a regular basis. I stand unashamed to admit I have wept openly during viewings of TERMINATOR, THE ABYSS, TITANIC, TERMINATOR 2 JUDGEMENT DAY, TRUE LIES,  AVATAR and ALIENS

 

They may be accessible and made for a mass audience, but they are not hollow, soulless films Iike those of Michael Bay. Cameron is a master filmmaker, and he uses those skills for more than spectacle alone

I think Cameron's films moving people is a happy byproduct of his skill with spectacle...making the spectacle so awesome and so realistic that the emotions are allowed to breathe, rather than making them a priority...rather than Bay who shoots everything like a music video or commercial, so the emotions are akin to your dick getting hard and that's about it.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambler 

 

I'm saying the priorities are not emotional resonance in an action film, which primarily delivers thrills and spectacle.  Jurassic Park is a great action film, but the characters are poorly drawn and the emotional scenes, borderline silly.  Spielberg's action films are just as laughable in the emotional department as Cameron's IMO. 

 

But I guess we're just trading personal taste like you said.

If I don't care about the protagonist, the emotional connection between the characters or the stakes involved, how can the action sequences be anything other than a series of pretty, flashy pictures?

I don't need The Godfather, I just need to give a shit and not feel cheaply manipulated or pandered to.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rain Dog 

If I don't care about the protagonist, the emotional connection between the characters or the stakes involved, how can the action sequences be anything other than a series of pretty, flashy pictures?

 

I don't need The Godfather, I just need to give a shit and not feel cheaply manipulated or pandered to.

RD, I do agree and see where you're coming from with the emotion thing regarding Cameron (it can be very heavy handed and two left feet), I just don't feel it's detrimental to the film, which has a primary goal of thrilling us, rather than moving us.  It's like the emotions in Back To The Future...I feel moved when George and Loraine finally hook up, but to me its more mechanics of the plot needing to move forward so Marty can get back to the future, which is the primary goal, rather than well drawn emotional content being necessary to drive the film forward, such as in a drama.  George and Loraine hooking up and us buying that emotion is only in the film so Marty's arc can be completed, not theirs...it's not the primary focus and to me doesn't have to be anything other than A-B-C basic to work.  Emotions are a mechanical necessity in action films IMO in order to make it realistic enough for you to buy and be thrilled by the action, not the other way around.  And in Cameron's films the emotions are good enough for me to get into the narrative, and he's done his job.

The Abyss is an exception because it's not an action film, it's more of a sci-fi drama...so yes, he needed to be more on point with the characters and he was.
 

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Again, we may just have differing priorities in what we look for from our actions spectacles.

Ebony aaaand Ivory....

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Princess Kate, Why is there a...2nd Terminator 2 Thread?  The answer is...Obvious.  A second thread was sent back in time to...Terminate the first Thread, and take it's place on the message boards on CHUD.COM!

The Rain Dog, When discussing action please do not forget either...John Woo or Richard Donner!  80's and 90's action cinema would not be the same without Woo's Hardboiled, The Killer, MI: 2 aka The Best Film of the...Impossible Missions Force, etc, and Donner's...Lethal Weapon 1 and 2!

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Quote:

Originally Posted by duke fleed 

Princess Kate, Why is there a...2nd Terminator 2 Thread?  The answer is...Obvious.  A second thread was sent back in time to...Terminate the first Thread, and take it's place on the message boards on CHUD.COM!

 

The Rain Dog, When discussing action please do not forget either...John Woo or Richard Donner!  80's and 90's action cinema would not be the same without Woo's Hardboiled, The Killer, MI: 2 aka The Best Film of the...Impossible Missions Force, etc, and Donner's...Lethal Weapon 1 and 2!

Woo I've mentioned and I'd rate both him and Dick Donner above Cameron personally as far as making better action films goes.

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The Rain Dog, Oops...I missed that.  I am a fan of James Cameron's Films, but to me...True Lies is his best, followed by...The Terminator, T2: Judgement Day Extended Cut, Aliens and Titanic!  I think he is a director of...Awesome action films, except for...The Abyss and Avatar!  T2 also begat the excellent...T2 Arcade Game Light Gun Shooter.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Upgrayedd 

This is a movie that I can watch any time it's on TV and I at least make sure I watch it on DVD once a year. It's one of my absolute favorite movies and I think it's James Cameron's best movie but I rarely hear a lot of people talk about it. The first one was a fun '80s action movie but T2, IMO, is one of the most epic sci-fi/action movies ever.

...okay.

Not that I'm all that into policing threads, but seeing as how the first post is some kind of bland laudation of a specific picture, there is a proper forum for this shit: http://www.chud.com/community/f/78/films-in-release-or-on-video That is all.
 

Combined the T2 thread with the old one. Hopefully I didn't make a mess of things since I did it completely ass-backwards.