Joe the Plumber - Page 2

OK, this was finally made interesting for me. I find it a little bit of funny that the situation now seems to be not that Joe the Plumber is a brilliant McCain strategy, but that McCain didn't adequately vet Joe the Plumber.

I'm sensing a trend.

But what about some of the other things the legit journalists have said about the guy:

- The business he "might" buy isn't as valuable as he claimed, hence it wouldn't fall into the tax bracket he was worried about.
- That he isn't a licensed plumber, something he needs to be in order to have his fucking job.

I'm sure there are some other things, but you will just gloss over them because they don't fit your retarded agenda. ElCapitan, I hope you are just trolling. If not, you should be wearing a helmet when out in public.

No, he needs a license to do commercial not residential work. But you know, I don't know if he does that or not, and I honestly find it irrelevant to the discussion to be quite honest.

But hey, if we can get the guy kicked out of job, that'd be great. After all, he should have known he had that coming eh? Great mentality there.

The only reason for all that is because McCain brought him up in the debate. If that didn't happen, no one would have cared.

He wouldn't be fired for his beliefs. He would be fired because HE ISN'T QUALIFIED.

Seriously, there are times I wish Florida would just be separated from the Union. Too many of their residents are goddamn fucktards who lack common sense.

You're defending a guy that brought all of this down on himself. Like I said before...he asks that question and the hounds descend on him and they find that he really is buying a company that does $250,000 in revenue and he's got his plumber's license?

THERE IS NO STORY.

Instead he puts himself in a very public situation, confronts a Presidential candidate all the while misrepresenting himself and his situation, and the rest is history.

He wasn't some innocent bystander the media decided to attack.

He wasn't planning on buying his friend's plumbing company. He said today that it had been mentioned but he has no means to do it and no idea how to start that sort of process. He was just trying to be a dick and stump Obama by throwing out the "250...uh...275...uh...290 thousand" line. That's already terrible math, because if he was even being honest, he could deduct all his expenses and whatever he'd be paying employees. He's a guy that will benefit the most from Obama's economic policies and he's just a pissy Republican. He said today on the news he really doesn't like Obama because Obama isn't proud to be an American.

He decided to be a moron and call out Obama on a hypothetical situation irrelevant to his current economic standing. How is anyone sympathetic to that?

I'd rather read a thousand duke fleed posts or another debate on Indiana Jones fonts than deal with ElCapitan in regards to politics.

You're projecting El Cap - no ones saying that.

For a guy who's as big on honesty and integrity as you seem to be, I find it interesting that you seem to have no issue with Joe completely misrepresenting himself in order to have well-framed questions for Obama.

Honestly, I wouldn't have even heard of the guy if McCain didn't mention him like 6 times during the debate. I've made my decision on who I'm voting for, so I stay away from the news because all it does is piss me off.

Oh noes! The guy that shouldn't be working in the first place won't anymore because his lack of qualification was exposed!

Kids, remember, it doesn't really matter if you shouldn't even have the job in the first place, just keep quiet on that fact and hope the big bad media doesn't decide to be big and bad and tell your, ehm, honest employer that you are basically conning him?

Oh, by the way. You don't find it relevant to the discussion because you are having your own scripted discussion in your head. See, if he does not need a license then he is not losing his job (hint: he'd be losing his job because the license is a qualification.)

But yeah, admonish our mentality and never ever mention the fact that had "his plight" (which is really "his attempt to be a douchebag and force a stumble out of Obama") hadn't been used by McCain, this thread, conversation and brain cell funeral wouldn't be happening.

Rain Dog, to be quite honest, I couldn't care less if the guy could or could not buy that business and how much money that business made. Obama actually gave him a great answer (I watched the whole exchange pre-debate), kind of a lengthy one and I thought the whole thing was a great example of a candidate talking to the voters.

Now, the guy was wrong from the get go, even if some of his assumptions were wrong (when he said the business made 250K, I doubt that he even meant net instead of gross) and I think it is fine for people to point that out. However, I don't think journalists (like andrew sullivan) had to post unfounded crap about the guy's family (like being related to Keating, insinuating something more sinister), information about his liens, his home address, divorce information and incorrect information about him not being registered. That's irrelevant, and that is consistent with my general beliefs. I don't believe in trashing people, specially invading the privacy of somebody who basically asked a question when a candidate came to his neighborhood.

Should he have been hogging the media after that? Probably not? But I don't blame the guy, he was probably a bit naive and basking in the fame of it (this was again, pre-debate) and then things got out of proportion.

And Kane, hit the ignore button. Don't you love technology?

Say I go up to McCain on the campaign trail and say, "My mother has cancer. What will your health care plan do for her?" A valid question to ask of a presidential candidate. And then we find out that my mom doesn't have cancer. In fact, my mom died five years ago. Does the validity of my question make what I did any less dishonest?

...and should the big bad librul media not investigate and report that you were a lying douche pretending to have a sick mum when you didn't?

I think that's a little bit different, because "Joe" here seems to think he could buy his boss' business (unlikely). He also exageratted what the business will make because Joe seem to be a "flat taxer" and is now saying "well what if Obama lowered it to 100K". Again, not a very serious and well educated argument.

That's not the same as claiming your mother is has cancer.

However, given your example. I don't think people should, post your home address, accuse you of being related to G. Gordon Liddy, or rummage through your divorce history.

BTW, I do have a story I would ask anybody who would opposed socialized healthcare. The story would not be a lie, but would I look forward for people to bring the history of my family to the world if I recounted it in a similar manner? And in that story, some parts could be debated (in my view I think the insurance company was to blame, others might say they were not).

Again, I'm not saying no reporting should have gone on here, just the level of intrusion here is way out of proportion.

Just to clarify, since I'm the only on the other side of the argument here, I said nothing about the "liberal media". There are plenty of examples of "the other side" doing something similar, one of them was pointed out by somebody here about a little kid who was "swift boated" by the likes of the conservative blogs and fools like Michelle Malkin. That doesn't make it ok, and is actually worse because the kid was 14.

Exactly.

Whether or not you agree with it is ultimately irrelevant. We know we live in a world where the press are rabid dogs and if you put yourself out there, you know what you're risking. Like I said, if this guy was on the level there would've been no problem. But he wasn't and they tearing him apart for it.

Does it suck to be him right now? I'm sure it does. But he knew what he was risking when he got into that confrontation with Obama and he decided to do it anyway.

I don't think he realized that, and I don't think any citizen should expect that for asking a question of a candidate even though as you state that is the reality of our society.

Anybody know what El Cap uses to dial in his transmissions to us from his private universe?

Well, reality is what you've got to work with and most of the time it sucks.

Besides, as has been pointed out, the guy gave subsequent interviews. He stood out in front of his house answering all sorts of random questions. He didn't HAVE to do that.

And it's McCain's fault. Not the media's. The media DID IT'S JOB by finding out the truth behind the guy McCain was using to make his stupid points.

The beauty of this is he manufactured a situation that really could divide people. He was coincidentally going to purchase a company whose profit was at the exact point in which Obama's tax plan started going the other direction. The odds of a undecided voter being in that specific situation and confronting Obama about it on TV are so slim, and McCain pounced on it because it was an exact representation of what he's been trying to get at in the debates.

Palin is still going to bring him up at her rallies. This is the perfect example of the schizophrenic nature of their campaign. Anything they can say or do to get an inch ahead is said and done, Allah forbid they think it through. McCain should have checked out what this guy was all about before namedropping the dick out of him last night.

I still love that he was so pissed about hypothetically paying another 600 dollars in taxes anually that he had to confront Obama about it.

I, for one, think ElCap just doesn't want to admit he's holding on to a barely thought-out position that falters from whichever angle you look at.

It's not like he's changed his initial concern like 3 times now, from his job to the media intrusion to the idealistic no citizens should expect anything bad from ASKING A QUESTION TO A CANDIDATE, which apparently is the question here, as opposed to Joe's attention whoring and dishonest intentions, except of course he's not whoring, he's just naive, very very naive and not dishonest, no, he's just exaggerating.

I hope he goes to jail for some reason and every inmate tap dances like Sammy Davis Jr on his asshole.

There's a great potential SNL segment in McCain using various people from rallies and news segments (Joe the Plumber, Mike the Projectionist, Bill the Stockbroker) as talking points in a debate, then having the media expose the people as psychotic and dishonest Republicans.

When his name was uttered in the debate I said he was going to get trashed, my point has been simple and consistent since then. He asked a stupid question about a possible and unrealistic purchase of a business and him not basically understanding how businesses are taxed. Again, that doesn't justify what some in the media have done beyond checking the basic facts of the situation.

From a practical standpoint, the media vetting of Joe the Plumber did its job when they discovered the truth about the question he posed. The fact that he attempted to corner Obama and that the facts of the scenario were 100% lies. Anything over and above that was gratuitous and counterproductive, at least to what I want which is an Obama presidency.

Do I think the media pile-on Joe the Plumber will cause Obama to lose? No. But it won't help.

But in the media's defense, Joe opened the door for this when he decided his views were worthy of national media attention based on a false premised question he asked a presidential candidate.

He lied. This wasn't a misunderstanding. If he hadn't lied he would have been a minor boost to McCain's quest to get an undecided voter or two.

And my point was, that even if he wasn't lying, his whole premise was wrong because businesses are not taxed in the way he was complaining about.

He exageratted the amount the business he hopes to buy makes, I have no idea (nor care) how much it actually is making right now.

He said today on the news he isn't going to buy the company.

Joe The Plumber is the new Sarah Palin (or misc stunt.) McCain will be referencing this mythical character for the next few weeks in order to lift his campaign.

Joe gets fired, it may work.

I may be reading too much into this... but you guys know ElCappie's been going to every rally and wanting to ask questions to the candidates himself. I think he's just gotten a little freaked out about this. Remember, he even asked you guys if you had any questions you wanted asked..

What happened was wrong and I think if you guys didn't have such a bloodlust to see Obama win and took a step back you might see there was some screwed up stuff going on here. Keep in mind, I"m only going off what I see in this thread... I could care less about watching news or reading articles about some dipshit from Ohio. Who the hell thinks about buying a buisness and doesn't talk to an accountant before a Presidental candidate?

Better put a band aid over that bleeding heart.


He deserved to get trashed when he opened up his mouth and spouted off with, in the best case scenario, ignorance and at worst blatant dishonesty. In either instance his point seemed more about being pissy than raising legitimiate questions or foster a debate on ideas with substance and depth.

Basically Joe's question has the equivalency of an issue of Marvel Comics "What IF?" His question boils down to "If I was to one day suddenly start making a quarter of a million dollars per year, would I be taxed more"? Um, yes you would be. Next question.

True. Thankfully, none of them have been town-halls. Shit, I'd be afraid of asking a question now of any candidate. I know at that Palin rally if I had asked what I wanted to ask, I'd have bloggers looking up for my certificate of citizenship.

Only be afraid if you are lying and make yourself a target for the media.

Depends if you asked a stupid fucking question/lied and then Palin used you as an example of a "fine upstanding American....even if he's brown" on national television.

I don't think so. I noticed how people were looking even at this guys relatives, even before knowing all the other details about his question.

If you googled the guys last name you get another guy in Ohio with the same last name in a similar line of work who is related to Charles Keating. That's not quite the same as looking up his relatives.

When I googled Joe the Plumber during the debate, I got this:

They linked to his divorce court records, and they were trying to figure out the relationship to that guy (some were saying uncle, others father), their campaign contributions (Joe's faux relative's) and who else they were related to (they thought it was Keating and some "journalists" fell for this). All of that to imply he had some shady connection to a known criminal.

I don't know about you, but I have relatives who have done things I'm not proud of ... who have my same last name (and similar first name). Who wants people to air that stuff out? The lesson here is to shut your mouth to be quite honest.

Like raping chickens and injecting lizards with paint?

Or bleach, perhaps?

It seems to me El Cap, Francis hit the nail on the head with the whole 'taking it personally' angle you seem to be taking here.

Remember mate, we're not talking about 'all people who publically ask candidates questions', and we're not talking about people like yourself who Im sure would be completely honest about their circumstances and agendas (if any) when framing a question to a candidate.

You seem to be seeing this as a "but by the grace of god go I"-type of thing, and it isn't that at all.

We're not attacking people who ask questions in general, we're not criticisng you - we're attacking Joe the Plumber for the reasons that have been repeated over and over in this thread.

I am LOVING the 'victim' card that the Republicans can't seem to stop playing over and over again recently.

How did they go from the 'John Wayne-worshipping masters-of-our-own-land hardass salt-of-the-earth' image the Republicans try so hard to put forward to the 'Little-girl-with-a-scraped-knee more-government-plz pansy-ass criers-to-the-nearest-person' image they've so often attributed to the Democrats so quickly?

Congrats, Joe. You've got your 15 minutes. Have fun experiencing the destruction that your backers have so lovingly applied to so many other people.

Because in America if you open your fucking mouth you deserve to have your life ruined! Fuck freedom of speech if I don't like what you say!

So what if his point didn't actually apply to him personally? It does apply to a lot of people and was legitimate.

That change took place with the Nixon campaing in 1968

Look, JTP is a dishonest douchebag. Does that mean we should hound him out of life? What about the guy who asked a question at the previous Presdiential debate, who turned out not to be undecided but an Obama supporter? Should we examine his entire private life too?

I agree with Obama that we can disagree without being disagreeable. Becuase otherwise you become just like those fucking Nazi McCain/Palin supporters!

It is incredibly important that it didn't affect him peronally. You can prop up strawmen until the cows come home (What if there was someone who wanted to buy a business but this would increase their taxes under your plan where is the incentive to do that?) and not have an effect. Making it an actual case gave it actual weight. Which is why McCain banged that drum so many times.

And what the fuck does this have to do with freedom of speech? DO NOT DILUTE MY FIRST AMENDMENT.

I agree. I think Joe's media coverage is unduly harsh.

Whahuh? Oliver didn't try to corner the candidates with a falsepremised question. He asked a fair question. And he never lied. He said he was leaning towards Obama and answered that he might possibly change his vote without any knowledge of why he was being asked. These are not analogs.

You're the real life inspiration for Tig in Sons of Anarchy, aren't you?

I just hate him for the fact that he presented himself as practically undecided in the beginning when it's now clear that he's a hardcore conservative.

When you know this and then look back on his initial question for Obama, it's clear that he's a McCain sympathizer who tried to catch Obama with a lie.

He deserves all the assraping from the media he is receiving right now.