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Your opinion of the "Fairness" Doctrine? - Page 2

post #51 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
I do find it curious that, despite all of their bitching about the liberal media elite, it's almost always conservatives who lose their shit over the fairness doctrine.
Nothing curious about it. The bitching about the liberal media is because the media is, well, liberal. There is one last bastion of conservative thought in this country and that is talk radio.

Liberals cannot compete in the realm of talk radio and the bitching from the right comes from the fact that they apparently need to have the government step in and give them air time when they have plenty of forums for expressing their beliefs.

Why do you need to get to one forum just because you are not involved in it? The reigning thought process behind that is that liberals just want to squash opposing thought.

Nothing curious about it at all when you look at the "sides":

Left= ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN, New York Times, L.A Times, Washington Post and nearly every major city newspaper.

Right= FOX, Talk radio.

Who needs the Fairness Doctrine more?

Also, the airwaves do not belong to the public. Corporations pay licensing fees to own frequencies, those are commodities and they should belong to whoever pays the fee for it. The "public owns the airwaves" is a facetious argument concocted to allow government control of a new media market back when radio began to trump newspapers as the favored form of informing the sheeple.
post #52 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by myk View Post
The internet has more left leaning sites than right leaning sites. Are we comfortable with regulating the internet to increase the number of conservative biased websites?

I don't think you understand what the Fairness Doctrine required. It didn't require balance, it required a fair shake. To map the idea over to the Internet, you couldn't prevent someone else from putting up a right-wing website if they wanted to. You wouldn't have to provide right-wing content, but you couldn't stop someone else from doing so should they want to. If I owned a radio station in the 50's and railed against the Klan, I couldn't stop someone else from providing pro-Klan commentary if they wanted to. I wouldn't have been obliged to provide it myself, though.
post #53 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post
Nothing curious about it. The bitching about the liberal media is because the media is, well, liberal. There is one last bastion of conservative thought in this country and that is talk radio.

Liberals cannot compete in the realm of talk radio and the bitching from the right comes from the fact that they apparently need to have the government step in and give them air time when they have plenty of forums for expressing their beliefs.

Why do you need to get to one forum just because you are not involved in it? The reigning thought process behind that is that liberals just want to squash opposing thought.

Nothing curious about it at all when you look at the "sides":

Left= ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN, New York Times, L.A Times, Washington Post and nearly every major city newspaper.

Right= FOX, Talk radio.

Who needs the Fairness Doctrine more?

Also, the airwaves do not belong to the public. Corporations pay licensing fees to own frequencies, those are commodities and they should belong to whoever pays the fee for it. The "public owns the airwaves" is a facetious argument concocted to allow government control of a new media market back when radio began to trump newspapers as the favored form of informing the sheeple.
So much retardation, where to begin? Or is this just attention whoring?
post #54 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by HBarr View Post
Seriously, you are wrong. This may sound snarky, but this may be the reason you aren't still running a business.

Revenue - COGS = Gross Margin - Expenses = Net Profit

Example:

$10 Revenue - $4 COGS = $6 Gross Margin - $3 Expenses = $3 Net Profit

Now if COGS is doubled and price does not go up, this is what happens:

$10 Revenue - $8 COGS = $2 Gross Margin - $3 Expenses = $(1) Net Loss
Who said anything about not increasing price? I just said it is not 1:1 relationship. And I'm no longer running a business because I couldn't justify exploiting people at below a living wage in order to turn a profit.
post #55 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post

Left= ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN, New York Times, L.A Times, Washington Post and nearly every major city newspaper.

Right= FOX, Talk radio.
Talk Radio is a big, big, big group. I'd argue against CNN being particularly leftist, too. What leftist doctrines are they pushing?

Quote:
Also, the airwaves do not belong to the public.
In fact, they do.

Quote:
Corporations pay licensing fees to own frequencies, those are commodities and they should belong to whoever pays the fee for it.
According to some particular doctrine, perhaps, but the US does not follow that doctrine. It's like arguing how something the US does isn't in line with Communism. True, but since the US isn't a Communist state, it doesn't matter.

Quote:
The "public owns the airwaves" is a facetious argument concocted to allow government control of a new media market back when radio began to trump newspapers as the favored form of informing the sheeple.
No, it's a statement of fact. Or was, anyway. Might as well argue that murder being illegal is a facetious argument. It's not an argument at all, facetious or otherwise.
post #56 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by myk View Post
Who said anything about not increasing price? I just said it is not 1:1 relationship. And I'm no longer running a business because I couldn't justify exploiting people at below a living wage in order to turn a profit.
I'm not trying to be mean here, but seriously you're dead wrong. If your COGS is doubled then your price must have a corresponding increase otherwise you will flat out have a lower net profit (if not a net loss).
post #57 of 73
speaking of COGS and thread derailment, anyone here playing Gears of War 2 when it comes out?

post #58 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by HBarr View Post
I'm not trying to be mean here, but seriously you're dead wrong. If your COGS is doubled then your price must have a corresponding increase otherwise you will flat out have a lower net profit (if not a net loss).
Using your example:

$10 Revenue - $4 COGS = $6 Gross Margin - $3 Expenses = $3 Net Profit

Now if COGS is doubled and price does not go up, this is what happens:

$10 Revenue - $8 COGS = $2 Gross Margin - $3 Expenses = $(1) Net Loss

How about this:

$14 Revenue - $8 COGS = $6 Gross Margin - $3 Expenses = $3 Net profit

What I'm saying is that if COGS doubles, price does not need to double unless you want to keep the COGS line on your Profit and Loss identical... profit margin is a means to an end, not an end unto itself.

More importantly, revenue does not equal price point. If the price is lowered the marketplace should dictate a corresponding increase in sales which may lower your profit margin but give you a gain in net profit. The oil companies raise their prices to an extent that not only are all costs covered but record profits are attained. Oddly, no one lowers their prices to capitalize on the bloated market at the pump because gas is a necessity to the way we do business and a shortage of supply can be exploited.

[/thread derail] If you want to continue this, start another thread.
post #59 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by myk View Post
Using your example:

$10 Revenue - $4 COGS = $6 Gross Margin - $3 Expenses = $3 Net Profit

Now if COGS is doubled and price does not go up, this is what happens:

$10 Revenue - $8 COGS = $2 Gross Margin - $3 Expenses = $(1) Net Loss

How about this:

$14 Revenue - $8 COGS = $6 Gross Margin - $3 Expenses = $3 Net profit

What I'm saying is that if COGS doubles, price does not need to double unless you want to keep the COGS line on your Profit and Loss identical... profit margin is a means to an end, not an end unto itself.

More importantly, revenue does not equal price point. If the price is lowered the marketplace should dictate a corresponding increase in sales which may lower your profit margin but give you a gain in net profit. The oil companies raise their prices to an extent that not only are all costs covered but record profits are attained. Oddly, no one lowers their prices to capitalize on the bloated market at the pump because gas is a necessity to the way we do business and a shortage of supply can be exploited.

[/thread derail] If you want to continue this, start another thread.
$10 Revenue - $4 COGS = $6 Gross Margin - $3 Expenses = $3 Net Profit or 30% (of revenue)

Now if COGS is doubled and price does not go up, this is what happens:

$10 Revenue - $8 COGS = $2 Gross Margin - $3 Expenses = $(1) Net Loss or (10%)

How about this:

$14 Revenue - $8 COGS = $6 Gross Margin - $3 Expenses = $3 Net profit or 21.4% (of revenue)

Technically, profitability actually decreased based on revenue. As an investor, profitability is absolutely a criteria when looking into a company to invest.

Also, the oil companies did not raise the prices. The oil companies do not determine the price of a barrel of oil.

Granted this arguement seems to be based on semantics but I think in troubled economy it is best to present a clear case (something your initial post did not accomplish).

More specifically, if the price of gas is lowered then how would sales increase? Demand would have to increase too. That's pretty fixed.
post #60 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by James May View Post
So much retardation, where to begin? Or is this just attention whoring?
Well since you obviously have left leaning tendencies you couldn't come up with anything to refute what I said so you resorted to attacking me. Way to be textbook. But just so you have something else to froth about(Also for Seabass):

Thursday - June 21, 2007

THE ATTACK ON TALK RADIO BEGINS IN EARNEST TODAY


This will be a big day for the left in its campaign to rid this country of their nemisis ... those pesky right-wing talk show hosts. Today we'll be hearing about a new study by the Center For American Progress, a Washington left-wing think tank. The man running this outfit is none other than John Podesta, the former Chief of Staff for Bill Clinton. This report will condemn what it calls a "massive imbalance" between conservative and "progressive" My guess is that the report will blame the preponderance of liberal talk radio shows on anything but the absolute failure of these shows to sustain themselves with good ratings. We'll also undoubtedly see the typical statements about the asinine concept of "the public's airwaves."

Now we all know that liberals -- and all-too-many conservatives, for that matter -- just love to use the police power of government to solve a private sector problem that vexes them. It's the liberal way. The liberal believes that this country is great because of its government, so why not use the government to make it even greater! At least in the eyes of the liberal elite.

Right now I would like to address this concept of the "public airwaves." Briefly put, it's utter nonsense. But where did it start? By the time radio broadcasting came along the elite -- that would be the political leadership -- understood the political value of controlling the flow of information to the people. A free flow of information was not desirable. The more exercise politicians could control over the dissemination of information, the stronger they were. And so it is today. You don't think that Hugo Chavez seized the nation's number one television station last month because he wanted to watch Sponge Fidel Square Pants, do you?

When our country was founded freedom was uppermost in the minds of our leaders. By the time Marconi got out his gun soldering gun and transmitted his first wireless signal around 1895 our Republic was already about 120 years old. By that time we had developed a political class that was perhaps more interested in preserving their positions of power than they were in preserving something so dangerous as freedom of the press.

Around ninety years earlier our nation's founders had decided that government should not interfere with the dissemination of information. Unfortunately, at that time there were only two ways to spread the word. One was verbally, the other was in written form. Both ended up being protected in the First Amendment to our Constitution. The First Amendment contained in the Bill of Rights was finally ratified on December 15, 1791. Can there be any doubt in your mind that had the authors of the Bill of Rights known of the role that broadcasting would one day play in conveying information, they would certainly have included broadcast freedom along with freedom of speech and the press? Certainly there is no good argument as to why they would not do so.

By the 1930s Marconi's little wireless telegraph invention was really taking hold, and our politicians started talking about government control. Now obviously there was a government role to play in protecting one broadcaster's right to the use of his broadcast frequency, just as there is a role for government to play in protecting your use of your own property. The government recognizes and affords you a means of protecting your property ownership rights. This is how it should have been with the government and broadcast frequencies. That wasn't the way it worked out. There was political power to protect.

Since there were no first amendment guarantees for freedom of broadcast, the politicians put their heads together to come up with some excuse to enable the government to step forward and take control ... FAST ... before this radio thing got to be a problem for them. After all, not only could information be shared with the American people through radio, but it could be done instantly, and at much lower cost than the printed media.

So ... what to do? Hey! Maybe this would work! We'll just say that the public owns the airwaves! And since the public owns the airwaves, we, as their loyal representatives in Washington, need to step forward and exercise control over what happens on those airwaves, just as we can manage access and behavior on any other government property!

I know most of you have never really thought about this before, but this argument is ridiculously easy to destroy. On just what basis does the public own the airwaves? Is there a purchase contract somewhere that I just haven't seen yet? Just when did the public acquire ownership of the airwaves? Did the public own the airwaves when there were no broadcast signals traveling at the speed of light from antennas to receivers? Or did that public ownership suddenly materialize when Marconi sent his first signal over the distance of about 14 feet? Maybe public ownership didn't happen until the KDKA broadcast some presidential election results in Pittsburgh on that night about 85 years ago. But, at whatever moment in time we're talking about, what even took place that suddenly granted ownership of all broadcast frequencies to the public? Did the public invest huge sums of money to develop these frequencies, or was this done by private entrepreneurs? Did the government go out and purchase or trade something for these frequencies as it did with the Louisiana purchase or Alaska? Just what happened? Where are the ownership papers? Where's the evidence that the public even had something to do with the very creation of these broadcast frequencies?

The answer is that there is no evidence of ownership. None. The public "owns the airwaves" only because the politicians in the early part of the last century said so. And that's it. They saw a new means of communication coming forward, a means of communication that had the promise of someday being more powerful than the Constitutionally protected printed word, and they wanted control. They wanted control, so they took it.

It would be easy to argue that government should control newspapers as it does broadcasting. Trust me, the left wing ideological tilt of the nation's newspapers is every bit as pronounced as is the conservative influence in talk radio. If it were not for the First Amendment, would these politicians be able to conjure up some sort of "public ownership" excuse to perhaps apply a fairness doctrine to newspapers? Well ... let's give it a try.

Let's see .... you can print a newspaper all you want, but it really doesn't do any good unless you get that newspaper to the people. You have to load those newspapers on to trucks and get them to the newsstands, the hotels, and to the people who deliver them to your front door. And guess what! To do this you have to use the public's roads! There! See how easy that was! We've created an excuse for government control of the content of your daily newspaper! All we had to do was show that the newspaper publishers use the public's roads and highways to get their news and opinion to your office or home!

It is so very much easier to make the case for public ownership of the roads and highways than it is to make the case for ownership of the airwaves. Unlike the broadcast frequencies, we actually paid for those highways through our tax money ... and we continue to pay for their maintenance year after year!

So .. why doesn't government step in with some control here? The answer is simple. The First Amendment. Government hands are tied when it comes to newspapers. Not so with talk radio, thus the left-wing study surfacing today.

Talk radio is conservative because that's what the listeners want. Don't give me this "corporate ownership" nonsense. WSB radio in Atlanta, my flagship station, is owned by Cox Radio, Inc. Cox Radio, in turn, is owned by Cox Enterprises which, in turned, is majority owned by people who have been stalwart Democrats since day one. In fact, Cox Enterprises was formed by James Cox, the Democrat candidate for president in the 1920 presidential election. (Defeated by Warren G. Harding) Interestingly enough, Cox's running mate was someone named Franklin D. Roosevelt. Does Cox Radio put me on their talk radio stations because I reflect the political ideology of the principals? Hardly. It's because I get ratings! And that means I make money for them. They've tried liberal hosts .... and they don't get ratings and they don't make money for the company. Simple as that.

So .. .the battle is joined. Liberals feel threatened by talk radio. They tried to succeed with their Air America, and all the George Soros and embezzled funds in the world didn't help them. So, in the liberal world, if at first you can't succeed, use the government to destroy your opponents.

This is going to be fun ... if not tragic. Let them get control in Washington and it will be the end of talk radio as we know it today.
post #61 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post
Well since you obviously have left leaning tendencies you couldn't come up with anything to refute what I said so you resorted to attacking me. Way to be textbook. But just so you have something else to froth about(Also for Seabass):
Source, please. There's a typo in the first sentence, which doesn't speak particularly well to its quality. Regardless, the entire argument rests on his unfounded speculation on what the founders might have thought about mass media.

Besides, I realize that this may come as a shock to most conservatives, but most liberals generally aren't threatened by the conservative agenda of right-wing talk radio. What's problematic is the overall lack of intelligent, civil discourse - it's all about the anger, fear-mongering, and bigotry attached to real political issues.

They're like "funny" morning DJs, but at least those idiots usually don't have a political agenda attached - there's no pretense that they're giving you information by which you can make informed political choices.
post #62 of 73
This is like a rice paper tiger.

Are you serious? All of the nation's media is owned by four mega corporations. Of that media, something like 1000 programs are right wing shows, and thirty something are neutral or left -- all owned by the same conglomerates.

Other than requiring a set time for reporting straight news (which is one of the most lamentably left behind aspects of it), the Fairness Doctrine is not the best instrument to fight the disproportionately represented right wing noise machine with.

The Sherman Anti-Trust Act would do. So, one of you guys should call Limbaugh or whomever is sending out these marching orders, and tell him he's barking up the wrong tree.
post #63 of 73
Quote:
The answer is that there is no evidence of ownership. None. The public "owns the airwaves" only because the politicians in the early part of the last century said so. And that's it.
That's what I said; it's not an argument, it's a statement of fact. You drive on the right side of the road, there is a maximum speed limit, you don't need a passport to cross state lines, and the airwaves are owned by the public; statements of fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB
Source, please.
It would seem to come from here, where you can also find essays like "Will Joe The Plumber And Soccer Moms Bail Out The USA In November 2008" and "Obama the Porker". I guess since someone wrote an essay declaring the idea of airwaves being public property, it must be true. And I can prove Iraq had WMD's by linking to a Sean Hannity segment in which he declares it so, I guess.
post #64 of 73
Don't your two points contradict there, Seabass? Some statements are good and unquestionable, but essays... those could say anything!
post #65 of 73
The only time i ever see the Fairness Doctrine subject broached on a "liberal" website is when some conservative drops in telling everybody that that's what all liberals everywhere want.
post #66 of 73
Not really. The illustrious scribe says the fact the government says airwaves are public means nothing. I'm saying the fact the government says airwaves are public means the airwaves are public. Except those that aren't. Build a network on the military bands and find out how much weight 'what the government says' really has.
post #67 of 73
Okay, but that'll never convince conservatives, plus a lot of other people.
post #68 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post
Blah blah blah blah bloobity blah
So I take it that brevity's not really your thing.
post #69 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Kimbell View Post
Okay, but that'll never convince conservatives, plus a lot of other people.
That's fine.
post #70 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
Source, please. There's a typo in the first sentence, which doesn't speak particularly well to its quality. Regardless, the entire argument rests on his unfounded speculation on what the founders might have thought about mass media.

Besides, I realize that this may come as a shock to most conservatives, but most liberals generally aren't threatened by the conservative agenda of right-wing talk radio. What's problematic is the overall lack of intelligent, civil discourse - it's all about the anger, fear-mongering, and bigotry attached to real political issues.

They're like "funny" morning DJs, but at least those idiots usually don't have a political agenda attached - there's no pretense that they're giving you information by which you can make informed political choices.
My bad, Dave, I thought I attributed it at the end of my post. It, too, is from Neal Boortz.

Someone mentioned you as being the "most respected Chewer on the boards" today. Please don't ruin their estimation of you by quipping over a typo. The typo comes from the fact that the "essay" was pulled from what is termed Nealz Nuze; where Neal Boortz posts his show prep notes before going on the air everyday. They are mostly for people who cannot catch the show on the air and thus keep up with his commentary online.

Newspapers were "mass media" in the Founder's day. They were concerned about the dissemination of information being controlled by the government. had there been more forms of dissemination it is quite a simple logical argument to say the Founders would have protected such in the Bill of Rights. The argument has merit and legs.

I agree with you that talk radio isn't the most civil of discourse locations but I do feel that Mr. Boortz handles this adequately by reminding his listeners ad nasueam that he is an entertainment personality and his only job is keep listeners around so that advertising space is sold and his company stays happy with revenue. He repeatedly states that his listeners should not believe a word he says unless it is something they already know to be consitent with the truth and that they should always investigate more if they find something he says interesting.

But suffice it to say, radio, like TV is a medium that is around for one reason and one reason only: ad revenue. If the program happens to be politics it needs to be entertaining. Whipping the rubes(see:fringe) into a frenzy is entertaining and keeps the benjamins rolling in.

Just as there are people who buy this stuff hook, line and sinker there are just as many people like myself that filter the entertainment through a rational prism. Far be it from me to blanket all leftists unless it be in a jovial manner. I know at least one or two rational leftists personally.

Except Devin. Devin is a leftist cockfag.
post #71 of 73
post #72 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post
Someone mentioned you as being the "most respected Chewer on the boards" today. Please don't ruin their estimation of you by quipping over a typo. The typo comes from the fact that the "essay" was pulled from what is termed Nealz Nuze; where Neal Boortz posts his show prep notes before going on the air everyday. They are mostly for people who cannot catch the show on the air and thus keep up with his commentary online.
I don't think my reputation is in too much danger. Intelligent posters understand the difference between quibbling over a typo produced directly on a message board and questioning the quality of a source cited as an authority because of a misspelled word. Newspapers, magazines, and books have editors. Academic journal articles not only undergo rigorous editing, but peer review. Even Wikipedia has editorial standards, for crying out loud. This guy (or whoever transcribed his words) couldn't even use spell check? There's no excuse for sloppy editing, and it's almost always a tell-tale sign of a hastily written and (here's the rub) poorly researched piece of writing.

Anyway, the implication is that Boortz is using factual sources to back up his editorial piece (regardless of whether it was meant for the air or the web), and he does a lousy job of supplying these. He's pulling this stuff out of his ass and knows that his audience is conditioned to buy it without him backing up his opinion with anything but fervor.
post #73 of 73
Mark my words: Pointing out that typo will be DaveB's Waterloo. Correct spelling is for academics, gays, and other types of communists.
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