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You must respect all religions and beliefs

post #1 of 132
10/27/08 at 6:49pm
Thread Starter 
Right?

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post #2 of 132
10/27/08 at 6:56pm
Ex Wizard? Does not compute.
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post #3 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:04pm
What level wizard?
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post #4 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:06pm
EDIT: My answer sounded stupid.

This guy is a lunatic. But, I think you'd want to respect him enough to understand his allure to the crowd. Obviously, he's tapping into something, and whatever it is, it's scary. That's the degree to which I respect this belief structure...enough to want to understand it without respecting the beliefs themselves.
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post #5 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
Ex Wizard? Does not compute.
But ex-HIV does?
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post #6 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:15pm
Wait...how can you have a kid without a uterus...there's so much confusion in that poster...
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post #7 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
Right?
You are just Jealous he got a women with no uterus, and lot more money then you do!

He just a man on a mission to make a boat load of money. People are sheep and wish to be sheared.

I know why he offend me, he whoring my belief system, but why does he offend you? If I was an atheist I would be doing what he is doing.
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post #8 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:18pm
I'll go, just to hear how he stopped being a wizard. I think I can maybe reverse-engineer it.
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post #9 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:18pm
"Once grew an entire field of wheat...
From a single watermelon seed!"
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post #10 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
If I was an atheist I would be doing what he is doing.
Really? That says more about you than it does about atheists, you realize?
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post #11 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Happenin View Post
Wait...how can you have a kid without a uterus...there's so much confusion in that poster...
I think that's supposed to be the "mystical" point, though, she could have just had the kids prior to having a hysterectomy, but that doesn't put butts in the pews.

I'm going against my good judgment by responding to the question Devin's posting, but here goes:
Must I respect this religion, or belief, or what have you? No, obviously it looks like a half-assed money grab. However, if I was in a conversation with the man, I would have the common decency not to belittle him if the path to his ex-wizardry (or what-have-you) was a true belief for him. No sense in making people feel small for something they hold dear. If the guy was a proven fraud in this little religious venture, then it would be a different story, but I don't think you're asking if we should respect other people's scams.
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post #12 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hundred View Post
I'll go, just to hear how he stopped being a wizard. I think I can maybe reverse-engineer it.
Don't bother unless he's mastered Fly or Fireball.
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post #13 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:25pm
Thread Starter 
All religions are scams. None of this guy's claims are any more or less believable than the claims of mainstream Christianity.
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post #14 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
All religions are scams. None of this guy's claims are any more or less believable than the claims of mainstream Christianity.
But, assuming that to be true, that's not really the question at hand.
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post #15 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
All religions are scams. None of this guy's claims are any more or less believable than the claims of mainstream Christianity.
Let me examine your definition of belief then. Let's just look at the concept of Monotheism-Do you think it's possible for someone to fully believe that there is some sort of higher power that governs all or some of existence? Not something proven and scientific mind you, something unproven (faith-based, supernatural, whatever). The reason I ask is that this could end up being a pointless discussion otherwise.

So, assuming you DO think people have the capacity to believe in something like that, and aren't just scamming themselves constantly, let me clarify. If this guy TRULY believes in what he's preaching. If he thinks he's preaching reality, then I would not mock or ridicule his beliefs. If he is willingly making up bullshit to dupe people, than I don't think he would be deserving of that respect.
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post #16 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Miller View Post
If this guy TRULY believes in what he's preaching. If he thinks he's preaching reality, then I would not mock or ridicule his beliefs. If he is willingly making up bullshit to dupe people, than I don't think he would be deserving of that respect.
The only problem I have with this stance (to which I'm generally sympathetic), is the Ex-HIV claim. You can claim you were a wizard all day, and I'll think you're a bit nuts, but c'est la vie. When you start preaching a philosophy that is directly dangerous to others, I think other considerations start to come into play. Then again, you did say "mock or ridicule" and not "challenge".
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post #17 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The LD View Post
The only problem I have with this stance (to which I'm generally sympathetic), is the Ex-HIV claim. You can claim you were a wizard all day, and I'll think you're a bit nuts, but c'est la vie. When you start preaching a philosophy that is directly dangerous to others, I think other considerations start to come into play. Then again, you did say "mock or ridicule" and not "challenge".
That's an important distinction, too. I wouldn't belittle a Christian Scientist for their beliefs, but I would challenge them to re-consider avoiding necessary medical care. I think it's the difference between being a reactionary dickhead and being willfully ignorant, there's obviously shades of gray in between that make a normal compassionate human being. Now, mind you, if that Christian Scientist decided to proceed along their path, c'est la vie, people are going to do what they want to do. If someone listens to this guy and decides to have unprotected sex with a crack whore because the lord will save them, well, I guess it sucks to be them? I guess I've never felt bad for cultists who do themselves harm, only the innocent bystanders (so to speak).
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post #18 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:51pm
Thread Starter 
If you get caught up in a pyramid scheme and believe in the scheme, it doesn't mitigate the fact that this shit is still a scam.
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post #19 of 132
10/27/08 at 7:52pm
I wouldn't mock an Ex Wizard. If he gets pissed and falls off the wagon you might find yourself on the wrong end of Bigby's Fisting Fist.
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post #20 of 132
10/27/08 at 8:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The LD View Post
This guy is a lunatic. But, I think you'd want to respect him enough to understand his allure to the crowd.
It's less a matter of respecting him than having no respect for the desperate sheep who follow him. If you're stupid enough to swallow this kind of crap you deserve to be taken for all your money.
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post #21 of 132
10/27/08 at 8:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
If you get caught up in a pyramid scheme and believe in the scheme, it doesn't mitigate the fact that this shit is still a scam.
See, you're comparing religion to non-religious things. People don't look to a pyramid scheme to get them through their day, to give them hope, or what have you.

Even still, I think there's a big difference between people like myself who would say "Hey, that pyramid scheme seems like a big fucking scam", and those who would say "Hey shithead! You're an absolute moron for entrusting your money to that pyramid scam!". I think that difference is called not being an asshole who likes upsetting people.

However, if being a confrontational dick gets you off, I think it's still a lot classier to call out a pyramid scheme than to call out their religion. People don't invest in a pyramid scheme because it gives them hope that they'll be reunited with loved ones when they die.
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post #22 of 132
10/27/08 at 8:19pm
Thread Starter 
Tip toeing around stupidity is retarded.
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post #23 of 132
10/27/08 at 8:24pm
The question I always ask myself is "To what end?"

Look, I don't disagree with you about 99% of the religions you bash. The difference is, however, I don't see a purpose in calling someone out on their beliefs. A Jehovah's Witness has a 0% chance of converting me, so why should I assume I could change them? I most likely couldn't, so "what end" am I trying to achieve by not only telling them that they're wrong, but ridiculing them for believing it in the first place? If the only outcome is that I'll upset them, then I don't see the upside in calling them out.
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post #24 of 132
10/27/08 at 8:29pm
I think the difference is that no one makes posts about stupid pyramid schemes.
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post #25 of 132
10/27/08 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Miller View Post
Even still, I think there's a big difference between people like myself who would say "Hey, that pyramid scheme seems like a big fucking scam", and those who would say "Hey shithead! You're an absolute moron for entrusting your money to that pyramid scam!". I think that difference is called not being an asshole who likes upsetting people.

.
Choose the later approach though and you may have a better chance of getting through to some of these brain dead meat sacks.
Seriously, the time for socially tolerating this kind of superstitious bullshit has long since passed. Mass acceptance of gross stupidity is dangerous.
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post #26 of 132
10/27/08 at 8:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Miller View Post
The question I always ask myself is "To what end?"

Look, I don't disagree with you about 99% of the religions you bash. The difference is, however, I don't see a purpose in calling someone out on their beliefs. A Jehovah's Witness has a 0% chance of converting me, so why should I assume I could change them? .
Because some people really do wise up. Thing about this whole debate, is that you are actually on the correct side and maybe if you intelligently debate the JW, they may actually start thinking about the shit they are shovelling. A lot of the times these things fester and breed precisely because other people with conflicting beliefs don't call them out on their shit. The "I don't want to be an asshole about it" thing is something that assists and benefits religions and cults. They grow stronger because of the ridiculous notion that you should not challenge them aggressively
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post #27 of 132
10/27/08 at 8:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt OCallaghan View Post
Choose the later approach though and you may have a better chance of getting through to some of these brain dead meat sacks.
Seriously, the time for socially tolerating this kind of superstitious bullshit has long since passed. Mass acceptance of gross stupidity is dangerous.
So, you really think if I went up to a Hassidic Jew and said "Hey shithead, you're a moron for believing in God!", it would actually have a chance of working? More-over, do you actually think it would achieve anything more than pissing him off, and making me look like an intolerant dick?

ETA:
You answered my question while I was posting, more or less.
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post #28 of 132
10/27/08 at 8:45pm
Did he get HIV when he was a prisoner? Did he learn magic from his former transsexual lover? Or is it the other way around?
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post #29 of 132
10/27/08 at 8:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by James May View Post
Really? That says more about you than it does about atheists, you realize?
What it says about atheist is they are stupid and missing out on a very good living providing services people want. Most misters are not this blatant and may even believe in what they are doing. But then most are providing hope, help, and good entertainment are reasonable rates, cheaper then going to see a movie a movie. This guy is an out and out Shark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Miller View Post
See, you're comparing religion to non-religious things. People don't look to a pyramid scheme to get them through their day, to give them hope, or what have you.

Even still, I think there's a big difference between people like myself who would say "Hey, that pyramid scheme seems like a big fucking scam", and those who would say "Hey shithead! You're an absolute moron for entrusting your money to that pyramid scam!". I think that difference is called not being an asshole who likes upsetting people.

However, if being a confrontational dick gets you off, I think it's still a lot classier to call out a pyramid scheme than to call out their religion. People don't invest in a pyramid scheme because it gives them hope that they'll be reunited with loved ones when they die.
That said there a lot of similarities between pyramid scheme and religion. Modern fundamental Christianity is almost the opposite what was taught by the church of the Way or Acts. The closes you can get to the early Christian churches is probable the Quakers, Religious Society of Friends, which funny enough seem to have a lot of atheist members. The Quakers are not 100% like the Church of the Way, but probably 80%.
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post #30 of 132
10/27/08 at 8:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt OCallaghan View Post
Mass acceptance of gross stupidity is dangerous.
Mass acceptance of gross stupidity is the norm through out all history, what make you think people will change now? Also what gross stupidities do you accept, every one have their gross stupidities they accept.

Chris Miller does have a point.
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post #31 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt OCallaghan View Post
They grow stronger because of the ridiculous notion that you should not challenge them aggressively
But I think there are shades of gray that come with the notion of danger. There was the recent case of the government intervening into a seperatist Mormon cult because they had essentially enslaved underage girls into illegally married sex slaves. Keep in mind, the girls claimed they didn't want to be removed from the compound. I think that intervention was appropriate, because people were in inherent danger. I don't think the same approach would be necessary to say, shake down a Presbyterian wedding, or an Irish Catholic funeral.
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post #32 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Miller View Post
But I think there are shades of gray that come with the notion of danger. There was the recent case of the government intervening into a seperatist Mormon cult because they had essentially enslaved underage girls into illegally married sex slaves. Keep in mind, the girls claimed they didn't want to be removed from the compound. I think that intervention was appropriate, because people were in inherent danger. I don't think the same approach would be necessary to say, shake down a Presbyterian wedding, or an Irish Catholic funeral.
I agree. It doesn't really take that much intelligence to gauge the difference between sex slavery and a boring wedding though.
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post #33 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:13pm
Yes, but there are those who want to treat them with the same level of severity.
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post #34 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:13pm
Thread Starter 
Anybody notice how condescending Chris Miller is? He's like 'These people are stupid, but they're too fragile to be told how stupid they are!'
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post #35 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
Mass acceptance of gross stupidity is the norm through out all history, what make you think people will change now? Also what gross stupidities do you accept, every one have their gross stupidities they accept.

Chris Miller does have a point.
People are changing now. Pay attention.
I haven't put you on my ignore list yet, so there are some gross stupidities I do accept; you have me there.
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post #36 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Miller View Post
Yes, but there are those who want to treat them with the same level of severity.
haha are you taking this straw man with you to the Emerald City of Oz, Dorothy?
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post #37 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Miller View Post
Yes, but there are those who want to treat them with the same level of severity.
You will have to clear that one up for me. Who, that we can consider without instant dismissal, really believes that sex slavery and an Irish wake are equatable?
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post #38 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Miller View Post
Even still, I think there's a big difference between people like myself who would say "Hey, that pyramid scheme seems like a big fucking scam", and those who would say "Hey shithead! You're an absolute moron for entrusting your money to that pyramid scam!". I think that difference is called not being an asshole who likes upsetting people.

However, if being a confrontational dick gets you off, I think it's still a lot classier to call out a pyramid scheme than to call out their religion. People don't invest in a pyramid scheme because it gives them hope that they'll be reunited with loved ones when they die.
I don't give a fuck if people are invested in their religion to get money, to get to an afterlife, or to become an AIDS-curing transsexual wizard who has an aversion to uteri. Motive doesn't concern me. When people try to work their own astoundingly stupid, antiquated belief systems into mainstream society and affect the way things are run even for people who don't agree with them, I will not sit there and say "Hmm...that religion they're following sure seems fishy, but I don't want to upset anyone".

If these people could give their beliefs an objective and rational look for just one short minute and examine why it is they believe what they do, you never know how many might wake up and realize they don't need religion to lead healthy, happy, productive lives. But unless they are confronted and challenged, that ain't happening. Might I piss someone off if I shine some light on their nonsense? Absolutely. But even if only 1 out of every 10 or 20 upset people decides to wise up, it's worth it. That's how change starts.
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post #39 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knife Chase View Post
If these people could give their beliefs an objective and rational look for just one short minute and examine why it is they believe what they do, you never know how many might wake up and realize they don't need religion to lead healthy, happy, productive lives.
But, why do people who are living healthy, happy, and productive lives need to be disabused of their belief in religion?
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post #40 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:27pm
"They need it" is not the same as "it would be good."
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post #41 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:27pm
Extreme reactions on either side of the fence are stupid.

I mean, in the end, none of us have any idea whats going to be waiting on the other side, so why do you feel the need to loudly pass judgement on what other people choose to believe.

I feel if a religion isn't trying to coerce their ... followers into hurting themselves or other people, give all their money to said church, or tryin to convert other people assault style (jw, mormens etc..), then why does it matter??

Besides, saying someone who has faith in a personal god is stupid is like telling someone they are stupid because they like (the generic, all encompassing term) 'movies'. It has no real basis other then a subjective desire to get someone to see 'your light', which is what religions do in the first place anyway.
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post #42 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Kimbell View Post
"They need it" is not the same as "it would be good."
If you saying what I think you're saying, I don't really think that's what's being advocated here.
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post #43 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alanthar View Post
I mean, in the end, none of us have any idea whats going to be waiting on the other side
I know people say that all the time, but is it true? We can pretty easily dismiss all kinds of claims if they're ridiculous enough.
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post #44 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The LD View Post
But, why do people who are living healthy, happy, and productive lives need to be disabused of their belief in religion?
Because, as I said, religion has been weaved into society in such a way that it can and does affect the lives of everyone. Not just believers. There's no reason and justification for that, and the sooner people realize the world will be better off without it, the better.
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post #45 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:32pm
I don't see how being an "ex wizard" is a positive quality for a messiah. "Yes I had powers and magic that could prove I'm not a complete crank. I gave them up".
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post #46 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Kimbell View Post
I know people say that all the time, but is it true? We can pretty easily dismiss all kinds of claims if they're ridiculous enough.
Isn't that kind of the problem with an omnipotent God? You really can't dismiss it. You can make it progressively more implausible, but it can't be dismissed, because there is always enough room on the margins.
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post #47 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:33pm
You'd think all of these guys who claim to be mystical prophets could afford graphic designers posessing actual ceativity and skill.

"Hey, I'm a direct conduit to God. Can't you do better than a me-damned yearbook photo pose and some shitty glowing text?"

Also, Sam Harris is right about this stuff. Religious beliefs occupy this rarified space where we have to give them special treatment just because. When in reality they ought to be subjected to the same rational rigor that we apply to any other belief or claim. Google/wiki "conversational intolerance".
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post #48 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knife Chase View Post
Because, as I said, religion has been weaved into society in such a way that it can and does affect the lives of everyone. Not just believers. There's no reason and justification for that, and the sooner people realize the world will be better off without it, the better.
That seems kind of weak to me. The same argument applies to liberal social philosophies.
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post #49 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:35pm
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post #50 of 132
10/27/08 at 9:37pm
there is nothing wrong with having a philsophical/theological discussion, its when one person decides what he thinks is more right then any other thought, that we enter the realm of the stupid
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