2008/2009 NBA Season Thread - Page 3

Well the thing with Marbury isn't based on his game, which would probably be decent with the Celtics, but his personality. I don't even mean this in a "he's crazier than owl shit, run away!" way. I think basketball, more than any other sport, relies on chemistry. And Marbury could really potentially hurt that.

Which also leads into what you're saying about Artest, Matt. I think Artest is such a hard worker, and wants to win and prove everyone wrong so badly, that he makes T-Mac look bad to everyone. We fans see it in the games, but imagine what the practices or locker room look like. There's been rumors of some locker room issues for the Rockets, and I think it's because people like T-Mac, but teammates are seeing he isn't a worker. Aside from his bastard child, T-Mac is a genuinely nice guy, and has made no enemies in the league, and teammates are probably having a hard time coming to grips with this "superstar" not pulling his weight, even when he's the nicest guy on the block.

EDIT: Artest also had the beautiful dig on T-Mac a couple weeks back. Something along the lines of "I hope Tracy is 100% soon, so maybe I can take some time off."

Grew up worshipping most of the big time sports announcers. (Was even a Bill Walton apologist) They all had knowledge and personality. What happened? When did they all blend into bland bores spouting the uninspired, uncontroversial company line.

I can't be bothered disliking Dickie V. He's one of the last guys standing from the old school. His shtick was always tiring, but his enthusiasm seemed real and is infectious.

Haven't been following the season as hard as usual. How do you guys rate the transactions so far?

Only the Clippers would try to recreate the Benoit Benjamin era (error) by trading for Zach Randolph. Richardson to the Suns looks like a solid move. I'm baffled by the Golden State situation. Don Nelson is apparently creating another soup opera, and is on the verge of imploding or driving out Chris Mullin.

And how about the Hawks!!!

I like the Hawks. If anyone should go after Livingston, it's the Hawks. Bibby is decent enough, but he's old. If Shaun can still play the Hawks could audition him all season, and offer a 2-3 year deal this summer on the cheap, and possibly have their PG of the future. It doesn't look like Acie Law is ever going to develop into a starting PG.

Clippers, Suns, and Golden State. On teams that are basically done. Stick a fork in them all, and prepare for many more years of mediocrity or 60 loss seasons. The Suns will compete for another year or two, then they're done for. Kerr should have stayed on TNT, he was a great analyst, but his ego (I'm guessing) made him break up a team so he could have his stamp on it.

I don't think that was the case for the suns. The Suns were not going anywhere in the Playoffs. They did well, but, as configured, it wasn't happening for them. Shaq was available, and I think he made a good decision. D'Antoni wanted out, so we let him. It was time.

The Suns problem is Amar'e Stoudamire. Stoudamire's a good player when he's engaged, but right now, he's not.

I realize that, but personality isn't a good enough reason to completely ignore him. Especially when you consider recent history-- there were concerns about Corey Dillon and Randy Moss meshing well with the Patriots, and for the most part that's turned out just fine. There were even rumors about Cassell potentially being a problem last season if kept from any significant participation. I would consider the numerous news pieces about Marbury's potential to do harm to the Celtic's valid if anyone on the Celtics expressed any concern about acquiring him, but instead you have K.G. praising his name.

I would think of a Marbury acquisition by the C's as a reverse Manny Ramirez situation. (Yes, I know I keep on bringing up analogous situations that occur in other sports. Sue me.) Admittedly it would still be something of a roll of the dice.

If they got Marbury for a non-guaranteed contract, and the alpha dogs of the locker room could keep him in check (and make him pass the goddamn rock once in a while Stephon!) then he could work out. But again, why chance a malcontent like Stephon when you can get a genuine nice guy, and team player, in Shaun Livingston to help solidify your PG play? Imagine Shaun on the Celtics. A chance to play for a ring, and prove you belong in the NBA, surrounded by a great team that removes all expectations from you.

Basically, I don't think Stephon is as horrible as people make him out to be, but yes he definitely has ego and personality issues. He will in no fucking way fix the current Celtics problems (they're just in a bit of a slump), but could possibly wreck the locker room. Of course KG is going to say he wouldn't mind Stephon coming to the team, because he is playing politics. He also did not talk to Stephon for years before this season, and knows that there is probably a 1% chance the Celtics sign him, so why not say "I don't mind if he comes" when there's basically no way it happens. Just makes him look good for allowing the past to remain the past in the public eye.

I'm not from Boston, but behind the Rockets, I always cheered the Celtics as a kid. I like to see them do well, and Stephon would not help them do well. Moss and Dillon had attitude problems, but they produced consistently, didn't have massive egos, and sure as hell weren't involved in a sexual harassment case.

It's fun watching the Celtics crash and burn after there was talk at Christmas of them hitting 72 wins. Records are made to br broken but unless Lebron gets a 2 Pippens it ain't happening.

Amare's leading that team in scoring, but he is gone when his contract is up, I think.

Does LeBron stay in Cleveland if they win it all this year? I think even if he does (and I think he will), leaving for New York will be too lucrative to pass up. It's built into his Nike contract. We shall see, I guess.

That's the rumor, but I highly fucking doubt that there is a clause to get more money if you're in NYC or LA or Chicago. This isn't Wilt in the 70s, or even Jordan in the 90s. Nike can market Lebron just as easy in Cleveland, Idaho, or even China regardless of the city he is in. Lebron might make more money for local promotions and such by being in NYC, but let's face it, if some restaurant or something wants Lebron to endorse it they will pay him rather or not he plays in NYC.

On top of that, I am pretty sure if Nike was to begin putting in clauses to make more by playing in other cities it would really damage their relationship with the league. Stern doesn't need anything fueling further bullshit conspiracy ideas about the league.

Yes, they've stumbled a bit, but they're hardly crashing & burning!

I am gonna call shenanigans on this one. That's the exact same thing Hal 9000 supposedly said when he got sued for sexual harassment.

The lawsuit is a treasury of comedy. I read it first thing this morning, and it made my day. I love the bit about forcing the driver to clean up towels after Curry did the deed in them.

I will be so happy to see Cleveland and Boston kick the crap out of each other in the East finals when pretty much all I have to worry about are the Spurs.

I'd really be licking my chops at a Lakers-Celts Finals rematch, if only the Lakers were 100% healthy.

Cleveland looks damn good, but they aren't winning a title until they actually get a coach to match and learn to play some defense.

I like the Adam Morrison trade for the Lakers. He should flourish in the Triangle.

he won't play much, but it's a good system to learn in.

I don't think I've seen him play 1 game of NBA ball. And I don't know who the other guy is at all.

Hopefully they can hit some open shots. Vlad hit a couple big shots but was never consistent enough, and I don't know if these guys are either. So naturally I'm concerned.

This game of horse is brutal.

Porter is no longer Head Coach of the Suns. Alvin Gentry, a hold over from the D'Antoni days is in.

I don't really disagree with the move, but doing it while your city is hosting All-Star weekend...awkward.

Yeah, Sarver and Kerr aren't really looking too bright right now.

I agree with the move, but I'm not sure this will make a long-lasting impact. Something needs to wake Stoudamire up. Maybe this will be it.

It seems they were planning on firing Porter right after All-Star weekend, but word leaked out beforehand. And then they decided to deny and dragged the whole thing out. Nice.

The Suns are pretty well screwed if they can't get anyone to take Shaq off their hands.

It seems weird for the Suns to panic at the All Star break. Shaq's having a mini-renaissance and Stoudamire is a dangerous wild card. They're in better shape than Dallas. I'd give the team at least another shot in the play-offs.

Alvin Gentry seems like a piss poor ace in the hole.

It just depends on how Stoudamire responds. Last year, after the Shaq trade, he was averaging close to 30 points and 10 rebounds a game. If he can go back to that form, Phoenix has a pretty good team.

Gentry's virtue is he's popular with the players and wants to run more. Which means less post-up opportunities for Shaq. That could be a problem. Or, considering Shaq is a very mature player (e.g., he seems very professional), it may not be a problem.

Who knows. This team is hard to figure out.

Yeah, right now they're 9th place in the West (granted, that's only like four games out of 4th place or something as it stands now). I certainly think they can make the playoffs, but in the long run they really need to settle the Shaq situation...he's a weight of money on them for another season past this one...the team can't play fast break with him, and Shaq's presence on the court forces Stoudamire out farther than he really should be playing--I'd rather see him in the paint than shooting threes.

They need to decide what they want to be. Four months ago it was a half-court, Spurs-style thing, which wasn't suited to Nash and most of the core players on the team, and it showed in their record. Stoudamire got bored and frustrated. Etc. Now it's fast break, which isn't suited to Shaq. Who no one will trade for. Plus, fast-break offenses are fun to watch, but they don't exactly pave the way to a championship these days.

You pretty much summed it up. Though last year after the trade, they finished 15-5. If they can return to that, they might have a chance at going deep in the playoffs. I really think that, had they won game 1 of the Spurs series, they could've made some noise in the playoffs. But after losing that game, and in the way they lost, it's gotta be demoralizing.

What's the general consensus on the big men coming out this year? Is the drop off between Blake Griffin and the rest terribly steep?

Phoenix took a big, stupid gamble trading Marion for Shaq and lost. Their window is over, Nash is older, Shaq is approaching retirement, Amare is understandably disgruntled... it's really amazing the moves that Phoenix has made over the past few years to do their very best to ensure that they won't play for an NBA title. Pushed Joe Johnson out, signed Banks and Diaw for stupid money, pissed away draft picks for cash and cap relief, and then the complete abandon of a system that won them an average of 58 games over a 3 year span by trading Marion for a 35 year old, 320 pound center. Idiotic.

They were one stupid bench-clear from winning a title, and the year before they were an injury from winning a title, and the year before... you guessed it, an injury away from playing the Pistons for the title, a Pistons team that was highly, highly beatable. Now, they're just a 'wonder what could have been' team...

I wouldn't call the gamble stupid. You trade a slipping Marion for Shaq's intangibles. The smart money was on them finding a way to make it fit for the better. Especially since in tight play-off games you can't run your way to victory. You need a half court beast. (Ideally, Shaq would clog the paint, freeing the perimeter with the collapsing defense; the old 90's Rockets were the masters of this-one extra pass and you've got an open shooter. Unfortunately, the Diesel is more like Moses Malone than Olajuwon)

BTW, I think everybody in Atlanta is amazed at how well the Joe Johnson deal worked out!

If Marion is slipping, what is Shaq? And you have to look at the reason Marion is slipping... people are calling him a fraud in Miami, but the bottom line is that he's a perfect fit for what the Suns were doing... he is one of the few guys on that team that could play real d, he can get up the court in a flash, he's got range and hops and is always making dangerous runs.

Again, they were 1 boneheaded bench-clear, which was a dirty fuckin play by Horry the hatchetman who was just trying to start some shit, from facing Cleveland in the finals... how do you think that would have played out? And before that, Amare was out, and before that Joe Johnson was out. They shook things up for the sake of it/impatience and it really bit them on the ass. Sure Shaq is playing ok now, he always plays well when he's got something to prove. But soon it's gonna be the same old story, and he won't be running as hard and won't be playing d and it all slips away... Trust me, I'm a Lakers fan.

They got rid of their whole system when they signed Shaq, they tried to bang with the Spurs and Lakers by going Shaq/Amare up against Duncan/Oberto and Gasol/Bynum/Odom. Except they forgot that Amare and Shaq don't play d, and they were less potent offensively. They got worse on both ends, cause now Kobe and Ginobli are shooting over Grant Hill instead of Marion.

Yes we are!
I'm also amazed at how bad a GM Steve Kerr is. Its amazing how someone can tear down, rebuild, tear down, rebuild and tear down again* a team over the course of two seasons.
Its a good thing that they have drafted some good young talent in the past few years. Oh wait, they traded and sold their picks.
The Suns are starting to look like the Clippers. Maybe Elgin Baylor can be their GM once Kerr is fired.


*presuming that they trade Amare Stoudamire.

Colangelo did most of the damage I think, Kerr was damage control and desperation.

Bulls trade 4 for Brad Miller/ John Salmons
I have no clue if Salmons is any good but I know the only good player the Kings got was Nocioni and he's just a good role player.

The Bulls need to find guys to build arond Rose. I doubt these players are it but the ones they have aren't.

I'm still trying to figure out the Tyson Chandler trade. I know he's hurt-still can't believe they gave up on him. (I'm reminded of the Knicks and Marcus Camby)

Chandler was always hurt in Chicago and now with NO. Reading up on it it seems more to do with the cap. Chandler is a huge liability on offense and at best is Ben Wallace light. Very light.

I'm pretty sure dropping Chandler had alot to do with trying to keep the franchise from becoming a money sink in a city that maybe can't support them.

Just been reported that Chandler failed his physical with the Thunder. Trade is now null and void.

God, let T-Mac have played his last game as a Rocket so that Von Wafer can take his minutes, and we can re-sign Artest. Wafer is incredibly more effective on offense than Tracy, and Ron can't stand Tracy's whining. With T-Mac getting surgery, and out minimum one year then he's done in Houston.

Bulls trade Hughes to Knicks
the players
ESPN says
Is ESPN high? Hughes sucks. If he was any good the Cavs wouldn't have traded him. All he wants to do is score. Bulls are a joke.

That's very true.

These trades are much ado about nothing, really.

Who's Houston gonna have at the point now, Aaron Brooks? God what a terrible trade.

Suns drop 140 on Oklahoma tonight. That's the 3rd game in a row of 140 points. Obviously their production is going to fall off, but man, that's something. The true test is coming Sunday when they host the KG-less Celtics. That could be a good game.

Aaron Brooks, once he learns to settle down a little, is a lot better option for this team than Rafer Alston.

Alston's biggest weakness, outside shooting, was something he was asked to showcase in this team's offense. Anytime you have a big man that scores almost exclusively in the low post, you need your guard's and SF to be able to shoot from the outside. Alston averaged 38% shooting in his career as a Rocket. His 3 point shooting was terrible. What he did well, which is take care of the basketball and be a floor general, is definitely needed by the Rockets, but it is something I think we can get out of Aaron Brooks, based on what I have seen of him. He just needs a little more seasoning.

I can't put into words how unbelievably glad I am that I will never again see Rafer Alston, wearing a Rockets jersey, drive into the lane, realize he doesn't have the speed or athleticism to get all the way to the basket without getting his shit thrown back, and promptly decide to throw up an ill-advised tear drop shot that he NEVER perfected enough to go to as often as he did.

Also, I think many people underrate Kyle Lowry. He has the same outside shooting deficiences that Rafer did, but is much more athletic and gets to the basket, finishes and/or draws fouls much better than Alston ever did.

Edit: Oh, and I will echo BillyG's sentiment that I am glad we have likely seen McGrady play his last game as a Houston Rocket. I apologized for him for a LONG time, always thinking he just had to get past whatever the current injury was and he'd be back to his old form and dominating. It was never going to happen. The guy is fragile and he doens't have any real love of the game, so he never really killed himself to come back from injury. McGrady's body is the oldest 29 year old body I have ever seen.

Anyone that thinks Houston did a bad job by putting Brooks in charge of the offense has never seen Alston play. Every time he has the ball in his hands you expect something bad to happen, and typically Rafer does not disappoint. And these last two games have shown Brooks to be more than capable running the offense. I saw a bit of the Magic game last night and I felt bad to see Alston over there pulling the same shit.

I didn't see anybody mention it, but the Suns had an offer on the table at the deadline with Cleveland to trade Shaq to the Cavs for Ben Wallace and the Cavs #1 pick this year.

And the Suns nixed it.

Basically it would have saved them around $20 million when all was said and done, and they would have gotten the anchor that is the Shaq contract off from around their necks. Sarver's explanation was that he was willing to eat the money to give the Suns a real chance at the championship.

I honestly can't comprehend how detached from reality they are any more. Admittedly this was before the Amare injury but basing any decision on some lopsided victories against the horrible Clippers was the height of stupidity. Sure, the Cavs pick is going to be a horrible 1st rounder, but just getting rid of the Shaq contract seems worth it.

The thing that kills me is that IF D'Antoni and his system were still intact, and IF Marion hadn't been traded for Shaq, and IF we had still done the Jason Richardson trade they might actually be a legitimate threat. It seems obvious to me that Kerr is just out of his element. You can't trade for a slow center on a run and gun team. You can't hire a defensive minded coach and then saddle him with players who are just bad defensively. You can't trade for a no-D run and gun player (Richardson) while publically backing your coach and his defensive push. Now we find out that you want to get back to run and gun, you had a chance to get rid of Shaq (and save money) and didn't take it?

The Suns don't know how to be a threat. The running offense looks great, but wasn't getting them anywhere in the playoffs. Terry Porter tried to help make them a more defense oriented team and the players like Steve "turnstyle" Nash bitched. And just as a slap in the face, Amar'e ignored doctors advice to wear protective eyewear, causing him to get injured. That team isn't unlucky, its clueless.

See, I don't necessarily agree that losing to the Spurs is getting nowhere in the playoffs. I'm not going to jump on the standard Suns "if Amare/Joe Johnson wasn't injured" thing, and I'll hate Horry until the day he dies but that is still on Amare for getting off the bench (although Duncan left the bench earlier in the game, but that's another story), but they were at least competitive with the Spurs if unable to beat them. Plus (and this counts whether or not people want to admit it) the Suns were freaking WATCHABLE. Even when they lost they were a good time. Non-NBA fans wanted them to win it all in the worst way just because it's a league of copycats.

From the Nash perspective, I'd bitch too. You're winning 56 games a year and you can't play a lick of defense to save your life, no way I'm welcoming the "hey were a defensive team now!" gimmick. His MVP seasons were amazing to watch mostly because he was just as bad defensively then but was so good offensively that nobody seemed to care.

As far as Amare being dumb? Yep. A thousand times, yep. He left the bench against the Spurs and possibly cost the Suns a championship. He begged for the Suns to get a center so that he could be a true power forward, they got Shaq and then Amare has trouble with how clogged the lane is. He came in to camp 2 years ago stating that he was working on his D hardcore and wanted to be defensive player of the year within a few years. We don't hear much about that dream any more.

Edit: Remember when there used to be legitimate NBA conversation about whether you'd prefer to build a team around Amare or Dwight Howard? That seems like a lifetime ago.

I still think that Amar'e is a good to great player and would have loved to have had him on the Pistons (maybe not so much now). It really seems like Phoenix is falling back into bad habits under a coach who isn't D'Antoni's equal. It's really too bad that Phoenix refuses to make any moves that would make them competitive for fear of alienating the fans.

It's a weird tightrope. I can understand the idea of wanting to be better defensively, but when you ship off Marion (the only player on the team who played defense) while making that change it makes no sense. The thing is, the team either needed to embrace the run and gun and decide that they were going to stick to their guns and ride it out and hope they could win with that sliver of an open window or they needed to nuke the team a'la the coke scandal of 1986 and start all over.

I think you're right in that they were trying too hard not to alienate the fans but this half-assed hybrid result is more insulting than a bunch of nobodies and a pocket full of draft picks at this point. They went from "Fun to watch, competitive, can't beat San Antonio when it counts" to "Boring to watch, possibly playoff worthy, could get out of the first round with a really lucky draw."

Last night was a huge win for the Rockets, and we were lucky to come away with the win, and not only because we went scoreless for about five minutes. The Blazers, for all their youth and talent, are a bunch of flopping sonsabitches. I absolutely fucking hate flopping, and wish it was an automatic technical. The Rockets had four calls on them right off the top of my head that removed points from the board due to Blazer flopping. Stern really needs to address it. It makes the entire league look bad.

Aside from the flopping though, a really good showing by the Rockets outside of that 4th quarter offensive drought. And Tim Legler says the Rockets will miss the playoffs. We could easily take 3rd in the West with Denver sliding. ESPN should really get rid of their entire NBA staff not named Marc Stein.